Quote :

"Yep, aint no one gonna be complaining about "no answers" after this one"

just wait til mambagrl throws in her 2 cents

3/23/2010 10:15:06 PM

what's the deal with the knife?

3/23/2010 10:21:19 PM

Wow. 3/4 of the way through episode 112, only 110 episodes after Charlie ended the 2-part pilot with "Where the hell are we?" or some such befuddlement, we finally get a modicum of explanation, even if it is in metaphor.

SOMEONE SAID:

THE ISLAND IS ___________.

AND HAD THE AUTHORITY ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY BE BELIEVED BY THE SHOW'S AUDIENCE.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 10:33 PM. Reason : psh]

3/23/2010 10:33:12 PM

what?

3/23/2010 10:43:46 PM

50% caps?

not necessary to read

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

3/23/2010 10:45:41 PM

**SPOILER ALERT: IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE NEW EPISODE, DON'T READ ON**





















I don't think the island really is hell. It sure seemed to me like the MiB was just trying to deceive Richard into thinking that this was hell because he wanted him to kill Jacob, whom he told Richard was the Devil. I don't think everybody's dead and I don't think the island is Hell. To be honest, I was kind of disappointed when Richard said they were in hell--that theory has been floating around since the beginning of the show, and it'd be too easy a route for the writers to take.

Anybody know the significance yet of the MiB smashing the wine bottle at the end?

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 10:59 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 10:51:19 PM

just sayin'

Pretty big that someone on the show actually defined the island in nearly-certain terms.

We may get a more specific answer, and still find out why/how Dharma chose the island, but this is probably the first (solidly satisfying) answer to the question of "whatthefuckisthatisland" we've gotten, especially when coupled with last season's finale.

3/23/2010 10:51:37 PM

Dalston--do you still think the island is hell? Is that what you're saying? Or do you just mean that we now know that it's a prison of sorts for the smoke monster/MiB? (Fuck a spoiler alert; anyone who comes in this thread without seeing the new episode is a moron)

3/23/2010 10:55:39 PM

Yeah, the island definitely isn't hell, it's pandora's box.

3/23/2010 10:57:29 PM

Agreed, Shrike. Just making sure we were all on the same page. Just out of curiosity--anyone think the island is hell?

3/23/2010 10:58:41 PM

it's obvious that it's not hell. i think that would've been a knee jerk reaction for someone like richard alpert in the 1860s, and MiB exploited that and manipulated him. that's all it was. richard just got a little emotional in 2007 when he said it was hell to the candidates. and i think it's pretty insulting to the writers if anyone has watched this show since the beginning and still thinks it's hell/purgatory/whatever. gotta give these guys a lot more credit than that.

and i doubt we will get much more of an answer out of what the island is, although widmore could offer some more information i guess. and that guy who took richard away from the place where he was gonna be executed said richard was the property of someone named Hanso...

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 10:59:04 PM

^6 I just took the wine bottle breaking to mean that he fully intends to no longer be sealed in because of the island. He will break loose eventually.

^^Nah it was just man in blacks way of trying to manipulate Richard due to his strong convictions from his faith.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:00 PM. Reason : adfa]

3/23/2010 11:00:14 PM

wait, if you think it is hell, i think you missed the last 15-20 min of the ep.

it appears to be the earthly cage of something very dark, something analogous to satan, but i think it is clear the writer's arent going for the straight christian activity. jacob certainly has jesus-like qualities but he seems to be just one of many in a line of protectors. i'm not 100% he wasnt the first but it sure seems to be implied.

Quote :

"and i think it's pretty insulting to the writers if anyone has watched this show since the beginning and still thinks it's hell/purgatory/whatever. gotta give these guys a lot more credit than that."

right, even more so, i think richard's line was a wink to the fans since "they are all dead" was one of the most popular early theories. now we had someone on the show just come out and claim that.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:04 PM. Reason : a]

3/23/2010 11:02:34 PM

Glad we're in agreement about it not being hell. Seemed obvious to me. The island is definitely a prison of sorts keeping the smoke monster/MiB from the rest of the world. That's all the explanation I, for one, really need about what it is.

I noticed that, too, about the ship belonging to someone named Hanso. But it wasn't Alvar Hanso. Has to be some significance in that, though. I know there was something that went on with all that supplementary Lost shit dealing with Hanso's bloodline; maybe it's just some easter egg thing or maybe it'll have significance in the actual series.

3/23/2010 11:03:21 PM

Quote :

"^6 I just took the wine bottle breaking to mean that he fully intends to no longer be sealed in because of the island. He will break loose eventually. "

Thats what I got as well. I also took it to mean that while Jacob sees the cork as what keeps the wine in, the MiB also sees breaking the bottle as a way to get the wine out.

You know, theres more than one way to skin a cat... etc...

3/23/2010 11:04:31 PM

Right ... not hell, cork.

MIB smashed the bottle as part of that whole metaphor. His darkness shan't be contained.

Remember when Widmore bought the Black Rock's Captains' Log? They said it was the last remaining something or other of So-and-so Hanso. Same Hanso was the guy who bought Alpert, yeah?

3/23/2010 11:05:23 PM

Quote :

"I also took it to mean that while Jacob sees the cork as what keeps the wine in, the MiB also sees breaking the bottle as a way to get the wine out."

i like that, i hadnt thought of that interpretation

now since alternate timeline has a destroyed island, does this mean that MIB is loose in alternate timeline?

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:07 PM. Reason : also, everyone knew alpert was on the black rock 1-2 eps ago, right?]

3/23/2010 11:06:43 PM

Quote :

"Same Hanso was the guy who bought Alpert, yeah?"

presumably, yes. i didn't catch the guy's name when it was spoken tonight, but i'll probably be watching this episode again tomorrow.

3/23/2010 11:07:06 PM

^^ When BlackLocke said the "chains" line, we all learned. That was a few eps back, yeah?

3/23/2010 11:10:20 PM

The guy who bought Alpert had the last name Whitfield. The captain of the Blackrock was Magnus Hanso.

3/23/2010 11:11:11 PM

rwoody--just curious, what makes you think he isn't the first? When was that implied?

To be clear, I totally agree with everyone about it not being hell and that being too easy/lazy a path and one that the writers of this show wouldn't take. Completely agree.

The writers gave a hint some months ago that the island was a four-letter word. Knowing that beforehand kind of put an interesting spin on tonight's episode--hell and cork (on the wine bottle at the end, which symbolized the island) are both four-letter words.

I wonder why the MiB didn't appear to Richard when Richard yelled out that he wanted to change his mind. With his persuasive power, it seems he could've "won" Richard over in that moment, and then he seemed to lose him again when Hurley showed up. Maybe the MiB doesn't have use for him anymore since he already has a plan to escape the island?

Also somewhat interesting--Jacob seemed noticably less peaceful when Richard showed up with the knife. He seemed more restless than he did in 2007 somehow. There was something different about his mannerisms. But, that's probably just because Richard was trying to kill him. I'm glad the writers aren't taking the Christian angle; that would've been weird. Jacob seems like a purely good figure, but I definitely don't think he's Jesus or God.


[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:16 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:12:43 PM

Quote :

"I wonder why the MiB didn't appear to Richard when Richard yelled out that he wanted to change his mind. With his persuasive power, it seems he could've "won" Richard over in that moment, and then he seemed to lose him again when Hurley showed up. Maybe the MiB doesn't have use to him anymore since he already has a plan to escape the island?"

I was wondering that too, but when they showed MiB watching them from the top of the hill, I took it to mean that Hurley got to him first.

As a stretch, I also took it to mean that MiB might be scared of Hurley and wouldnt approach.

3/23/2010 11:15:22 PM

^^as for your first question, jacob was very confident that someone would just take his place. for me, that at least raises the possibility that MIB has killed some prior protector whose place jacob took.

to another of your points, we may be giving MIB too much credit if we say he can appear anywhere he wants anytime he wants. then again, he may have also just known hurley was coming and he has shown a reluctance to challenge a candidate in the presence of others.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:16 PM. Reason : ^ya]

3/23/2010 11:16:37 PM

Quote :

"I wonder why the MiB didn't appear to Richard when Richard yelled out that he wanted to change his mind. With his persuasive power, it seems he could've "won" Richard over in that moment, and then he seemed to lose him again when Hurley showed up. Maybe the MiB doesn't have use to him anymore since he already has a plan to escape the island?"

MiB doesn't seem to be omnipresent. he got to where richard was, but he was a little late. i don't know if MiB ever needed to use richard necessarily more so than there just being some benefit to having richard side with him.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:18 PM. Reason : also appears as if i was beaten by 13 seconds]

3/23/2010 11:16:50 PM

Interesting point. MiB does seem to prefer to get to the candidates when they're alone.

I think that Jacob and MiB grew up together. I don't have any proof of this other than the vibe that I get. I suppose it's a possibility that there was a different protector AND different evil force before Jacob and MiB, but I don't think there've been multiple protectors for the MiB that we know. That said, I suppose it's a possibility.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:21 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:19:14 PM

Quote :

"i don't know if MiB ever needed to use richard necessarily more so than there just being some benefit to having richard side with him. "

Just brainstorming, but in thinking more about this, when Jacob gave MiB the white rock, I took that to signify that Jacob "won" Richard, and the white rock was like a game piece.

When MiB took Sawyer to the cave, there was also a black rock on the scale, keeping it even. I wonder if the black rock was to signify Ben?

Thoughts?

3/23/2010 11:19:59 PM

Quote :

"Just brainstorming, but in thinking more about this, when Jacob gave MiB the white rock, I took that to signify that Jacob "won" Richard, and the white rock was like a game piece."

i think that was pretty clearly the case

i mean, how meaningful the game is can be argued, but i think the writers want us to think exactly that based on the piles of evidence to that end in the show over the years.

3/23/2010 11:23:53 PM

Maybe. I think when the MiB tossed the white rock into the ocean, tipping the scales, that was supposed to signify the MiB winning Sawyer. I don't see Ben and Sawyer as cancelling each other out or linked. Is that what you're asking?

But, the white and black rocks are definitely game pieces.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:25 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:24:22 PM

So exactly what is MIB? Is he the literal evil that the island is keeping contained? I personally think a lot of what he told Richard, Sawyer, etc... is true.

He really is a prisoner on the island, perhaps also evil but not THE evil that the island is meant to contain. Jacob probably did imprison him sometime in the past and is forcing him to stay. He is willing to unleash the evil/corruption upon the world in order to escape because he believes humanity is corrupt by nature.

Now, who or what he was before coming to the island and how he got all those gnarly powers may or may not ever be answered.

3/23/2010 11:25:28 PM

wait, there was just one big black rock and one big white rock, right?

mib and jacob right?

again, things i thought were clear? am i wrong?

Quote :

"He really is a prisoner on the island, perhaps also evil but not THE evil that the island is meant to contain"

meh, i dont know, i feel like you over thinking it. jacob said the evil believes everyone is corruptible and all mib has ever done is try to corrupt people. seems like he is both THE evil AND a prisoner.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:28 PM. Reason : A]

3/23/2010 11:26:40 PM

I think it'll be answered, Shrike. I read somewhere that there'll be an episode that delves into Jacob and the MiB's history.

I'm fine with accepting the MiB and Jacob as philosophical entities; one that believes in the good of mankind, and one that believes man is corruptible.

3/23/2010 11:27:30 PM

rwoody-I think there is more than one white and black rock. I could be wrong, though.

If that were the case, though, how would the black rock represent Ben?

3/23/2010 11:29:32 PM

i feel like taking that white rock away HAS to signify jacob's death. any other explanation is overstating the importance of any of the general losties.

big white rock = jacob, big black rock = mib

3/23/2010 11:32:42 PM

OK...but you said the black rock signified Ben. Typo?

EDIT: nevermind, that was wolfmarsh. Sorry. At first I was thinking there were several white and black rocks, one for each candidate, but I can buy that there is one black rock for MiB and one white rock for Jacob.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:35 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:33:28 PM

np

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:34 PM. Reason : a]

3/23/2010 11:34:22 PM

I still dont think the rocks in the cave signify MiB/Jacob.

The scale showed the rocks being even, and I don't exactly consider MiB and Jacob even. Jacob is clearly "in charge".

I think they signified pawns in thier "game" more than anything. When MiB threw them out in the ocean, that was to signify that the pawns werent important anymore.

Maybe im stretching here.

3/23/2010 11:35:01 PM

Quote :

"i feel like taking that white rock away HAS to signify jacob's death. any other explanation is overstating the importance of any of the general losties. big white rock = jacob, big black rock = mib"

that's what the scene in the first episode with walt and locke signified

3/23/2010 11:36:30 PM

I think you are stretching. Why wouldn't he throw both rocks out? And how are the pawns not important to him, when he tries to convince each and every one of them to join him?

Quote :

"that's what the scene in the first episode with walt and locke signified"

??? Don't remember this. I vaguely remember something where Locke held up a rock, but what exactly happened again?


[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:36:31 PM

My kind of overarching theory to the whole thing is that to get off the island, the "warden" has to let MiB leave. (which we all realize to be the truth at this point)

I think the new "warden" has already been chosen, but nobody realizes who it is yet. If MiB can convince them to leave the island and let him go before they understand thier new job, he has won and will in fact get off the island, which is why he is moving quickly.

Once the new "warden" understands the gravity of the situation they are in, they will behave exactly like Jacob did, and not let him leave.


He also clearly said the rocks were an inside joke, so I don't think they have any real significance other than as some kind of marker in the game they have been playing for who knows how long.


[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:39:06 PM

Quote :

"The scale showed the rocks being even, and I don't exactly consider MiB and Jacob even. Jacob is clearly "in charge"."

nah, balance of good and evil, universal theme

jacob's good was the balance to mib's evil, now that jacob is dead, unless a candidate fill his place, i.e. replaces the white rock, evil will triumph by MIB escaping and infecting the world.

jacob and mib were even which is why one couldnt kill the other. if jacob was such a boss, why didnt he get rid of MIB and why was MIB able to kill him? they had been engaged in a very long game of chess, or backgammon.

Quote :

"He also clearly said the rocks were an inside joke, so I don't think they have any real significance other than as some kind of marker in the game they have been playing for who knows how long."

well, yea.

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:42 PM. Reason : a]

3/23/2010 11:41:25 PM

The backgammon thing is an interesting reference, take a look at this page:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Black_and_white

Kind of goes over some of the references to black and white. I had forgotten that there was a pouch with a black and white stone in it in the cave from the beginning.

3/23/2010 11:43:33 PM

Just youtubed it, Rat Soup. The backgammon scene. That's awesome that there's such a clear connection between the first episode and one of the last. And people say these writers lack focus...

LOL@Lostpedia's reference to Jacob and MiB's "idealogical" battle

[Edited on March 23, 2010 at 11:44 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2010 11:43:55 PM

Im with you on the good/evil balance and the scale signifying that, I am just trying to search for some damn answers

3/23/2010 11:45:27 PM

i don't remember if the writers intended to personify the light and dark pieces from the very beginning, but it's amazing how that scene seems so trivial until the season 5 finale.

3/23/2010 11:46:46 PM

Wolfmarsh, what answers are you searching for? The white rock is Jacob and the black rock is the MiB. He threw the white rock into the ocean because he's killed Jacob and he thinks he's about to win their game.

3/23/2010 11:49:50 PM

Like I said, i'm with you on that, I am just trying to explore whatever I can brainstorm at the moment.

3/23/2010 11:52:36 PM

thinking too hard man

I'm gonna try to say this as unironically as possible, but sometimes things are just black and white....

3/24/2010 12:01:26 AM

haha i wonder if they'll ever address how in the hell the black rock ended up where it did. i know there was a pretty big swell considering it ran into the statue, but i thought i remembered someone saying it was miles inland a couple seasons ago. i was kind of hoping the island would sort of pop up underneath the boat, but obviously that didn't happen.

3/24/2010 12:04:42 AM

I want to know how the Statue was still standing while the time travellers were bouncing around through the 50s and 70s last season, when the boat smashed it in tonight's episode in the mid-1800s.

[Edited on March 24, 2010 at 12:08 AM. Reason : or am i just to assume that one of those flashes was an 1800s flash?]

3/24/2010 12:07:31 AM

Quote :

"I want to know how the Statue was still standing while the time travellers were bouncing around through the 50s and 70s last season, when the boat smashed it in tonight's episode in the mid-1800s."

because it was before richard got to the island

3/24/2010 12:08:37 AM