Quote :

"Not that they don't fuck up, ie Russell Wilson being a 2*...and I think people who worship high school kids star ratings have problems but over an entire class, they're usually fairly accurate"

Probably accurate over an entire class, yes, but there are some serious outliers. Just here at NCSU, not only was there the underrating of Wilson, but IIRC Jay Davis came out of high school with a very high rating, 4* and a lot of accolades out of Florida. We saw how well that one worked out.

12/2/2013 7:20:20 AM

Harrison Beck as well

12/2/2013 7:28:25 AM

Marcus stone as well, we have a habit of embarrassingly striking out with high profile recruits in the revenue sports

12/2/2013 7:48:17 AM

It's easy to recall the 2*'s that become superstars, P-Riv/Russell/Irving/etc, because they are the great players we enjoy watching each week. And it's easy to remember the 4/5* players that are busts, Crisp/Barnes/J. Smith/etc, because we look forward to them playing/hype them up and then they never show up.

Doeren's had 1/2 a class of recruiting basically, and a lot of the guys he brought in, played some quality football this year. He's still proving to be a tenacious recruiter, really can't judge him until he's got "his guys" in place. All of the rookies that played this year showed some flashes of potential. Now to see if he can finish out this class and land a few of the big fish we have on the hook and then start the rebuilding process next year.

12/2/2013 8:23:56 AM

The problem is whatever momentum he had on this whole rebuilding process takes a major hit when you go 3-9 and winless in the ACC. Kids who may have been intrigued at the prospect of helping bring us back now are thinking yikes maybe I would rather go over to Duke and play in the coastal where fucking Duke can win a title rather than endure seasons like that at NC State. Kids have very short memories these days and want instant gratification and a season like that can instantly kill your recruiting.

12/2/2013 9:07:34 AM

I can't objectively picture a player picking state over many teams in the ACC other than up north schools just for the weather.

12/2/2013 9:16:15 AM

Quote :

"I think Scout and Rivals follow recruiting more than any of us Not that they don't fuck up, ie Russell Wilson being a 2*...and I think people who worship high school kids star ratings have problems but over an entire class, they're usually fairly accurate"

Sure, but that wasn't the point I was making. The reason I said "according to packboozie's asshole's recruiting service" is that must have been the service he's citing when he said:

Quote :

"Our recent recruiting classes have been ranked higher than Cuse, BC, Maryland, Wake, and Duke and yet all of those teams beat us this year. ""

12/2/2013 9:27:22 AM

Quote :

"as soon as DD finds a Lynchlike qb, we'll be a 10 win team"

as soon as Herb finds a James Harden like player, he'll make it to the 2nd round again

12/2/2013 9:32:42 AM

You need help if you think Wake, Syracuse, BC, Duke, and Maryland really are so much more talented than us than us that there was nothing Doeren could do.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 9:57 AM. Reason : Look I was a huge fan of the Doeren hire, but take the blinders off, he did an awful job]

12/2/2013 9:53:34 AM

He took a system and made people play it who weren't fit for it. Short term did we have a bad year? Yes. Long term it's going to make a difference.

12/2/2013 10:20:31 AM

Quote :

"You need help if you think Wake, Syracuse, BC, Duke, and Maryland really are so much more talented than us than us that there was nothing Doeren could do."

I didn't make that claim did I?

However, you made the claim:

Quote :

"Our recent recruiting classes have been ranked higher than Cuse, BC, Maryland, Wake, and Duke..."

Which is bullshit.

12/2/2013 10:24:26 AM

Quote :

"He took a system and made people play it who weren't fit for it. Short term did we have a bad year? Yes. Long term it's going to make a difference."

That's what worries me. System coaches are typically mediocre in the bigger conferences once teams have the system to watch on tape. A great coach can see what talent he has and adjust their system to maximize what they have to work with. If you are just forcing guys into a system that doesnt play to their strength then chances are as soon as the guys you recruit get hurt we are right back to losing every game. I liked the Doeren hire, but watching us this season makes me very hesitant to expect anything better than 7-5 or 8-4 type seasons.

12/2/2013 10:28:44 AM

2013 class: 9th in ACC ahead of Wake, Duke, Cuse, GT, and BC
2012 class: 10th in ACC ahead of GT, BC, Wake, Cuse. We were behind Duke, but our average stars was higher.

So out of that group we were ahead of all of those I said except Maryland who surprisingly was 6th each year. Fuck me one team was wrong.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 10:38 AM. Reason : sorry for Maryland having so much more talent than us]

12/2/2013 10:37:22 AM

Quote :

"Fuck me two teams were wrong."

12/2/2013 10:44:18 AM

Quote :

"None of those calls were game losers. None. You can think he's crazy for making them, but the dude was tasked with creating offense from a team incapable of creating offense. When you're desperate, you've gotta do crazy shit sometimes. When you're playing a shit ton of freshmen, they're going to be dumbasses and fuck something up. The fact you all want to ride this guy's ass for a few weird calls just shows how football stupid you are. Questionable playcalls didn't get us to 0-8 in the ACC, and didn't even account for one of those loses."

football stupid, eh?

and when did I mention anything about game losers?

12/2/2013 10:45:17 AM

Quote :

"If ya can't beat 'em, strawman 'em"

12/2/2013 10:52:54 AM

^^^Okay not tell me how many of those students enrolled/stayed. And which classes had the better quarterbacks.

Also look at what David Cutcliffe did. That didn't happen over 1 season.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 10:55 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2013 10:53:11 AM

Quote :

"That's what worries me. System coaches are typically mediocre in the bigger conferences once teams have the system to watch on tape. A great coach can see what talent he has and adjust their system to maximize what they have to work with. If you are just forcing guys into a system that doesnt play to their strength then chances are as soon as the guys you recruit get hurt we are right back to losing every game. I liked the Doeren hire, but watching us this season makes me very hesitant to expect anything better than 7-5 or 8-4 type seasons."

our team this year certainly wasn't loaded with talent, but there was enough there to get at least one conference win with decent coaching.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:00 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2013 10:58:37 AM

So far, the DD apologists have compared DD to Saban and Cutcliff. Can't wait to hear the comparison with the Bear.

12/2/2013 10:59:12 AM

Quote :

"And which classes had the better quarterbacks."

We had a 4* QB playing this year....

12/2/2013 11:00:23 AM

And he was garbage. I'm not asking for his stars, but how they actually performed.

^^Haven't read everything, but I didn't compare him to Cutcliffe. My point is if you got rid of him at year 4 Duke would of made a huge mistake. DD will need time as well, like Cutcliffe did.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2013 11:05:13 AM

Not sure why I looked these up but here are the recruiting classes ranked by the scouting sites. Scout listed first with rivals in parentheses.
2009
#28 Maryland (26)
#39 State (52)
#52 Duke (51)
#56 Wake (64)
#81 Boston College (70)
#102 Syracuse (118)

2010
#42 Maryland (36)
#43 Boston College (47)
#47 State (34)
#53 Syracuse (78)
#62 Wake (69)
#71 Duke (72)

2011
#35 Boston College (38)
#51 Syracuse (76)
#55 Maryland (43)
#63 Duke (77)
#73 Wake (70)
#75 State (87)

2012
#36 Maryland (35)
#54 Syracuse (66)
#61 State (53)
#63 Duke (52)
#71 Boston College
#73 Wake (70)

2013
#48 Maryland (33)
#53 State (47)
#61 Wake (58)
#70 Duke (68)
#73 Syracuse (74)
#90 Boston College (88)

12/2/2013 11:05:30 AM

I love how 2* recruits like RW that turn into stars had nothing to do with their coaching but if a 4* recruit sucks it is all on the player.

Cutcliffe took over a program winning 2 games a year and turned it into a winner.

DD took a program going to three straight bowls and went 3-9.

Totally the same situations.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:14 AM. Reason : ^So in other words we should be competing with them not getting blown out by 20 right?]

12/2/2013 11:12:54 AM

I didn't say they were the same. I just said really good coaches need time. Cutcliffe needed it. Putting DD on a short leash is silly.

Sure he got a program that went to 3 straight bowl games - but he also got a program that was complete shit. Just because they went to three straight bowl games, doesn't mean they were going to go to another bowl this year - even TOB would of struggled to get to 6 wins this year.



[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:19 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2013 11:16:34 AM

Quote :

"So in other words I was full of shit with my class rankings claim we should be competing with them not getting blown out by 20 right?"

ftfy

Quote :

"I love how 2* recruits like RW that turn into stars had nothing to do with their coaching but if a 4* recruit sucks it is all on the player."

It seems you have an endless supply of strawmans.

12/2/2013 11:17:37 AM

^^^you know, cause Doeren is playing with exactly the same players that went to those 3 bowl games, right?

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:18 AM. Reason : ^]

12/2/2013 11:17:50 AM

I'll wait till after next year before I get too worried. Get us back to 6 wins with another easy schedule and I will at least feel better.

12/2/2013 11:19:46 AM

Quote :

"So in other words I was full of shit with my class rankings claim"

It's right there in black and white that we had better classes the last two years than Cuse, BC, Wake, and Duke. That's even losing recruits last year during the change.

But they totally have more talent than us. Defend a coach that just took us to a 0-8 ACC season for the first time ever. I'm out.

12/2/2013 11:21:15 AM

^What? you mean you don't find it ridiculous we didn't win 12 games this year?

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:27 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2013 11:21:34 AM

Same o line, same receivers, same kicker, same d line, same tight ends, same linebackers, same secondary + one year of practice.

Just had to put together a halfway competent QB and they surely would have won a game in conference. Surely.




[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:29 AM. Reason : .]

12/2/2013 11:23:16 AM

Jrb599 throwing all kinds of rocks in a glass house

Quote :

"Still have a good d-line dj green can play LB Burris will be an excellent corner. Byrd isn't too bad either The backup OL played well against FSU - they should be good starters We're returning decent receivers. Pete Thomas will be a good QB. sand robot - I agree that TOB didn't leave a 12-0 team. But Doeren can go at least 7-5"

...

Quote :

"Sure he got a program that went to 3 straight bowl games - but he also got a program that was complete shit. Just because they went to three straight bowl games, doesn't mean they were going to go to another bowl this year - even TOB would of struggled to get to 6 wins this year."

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:27 AM. Reason : also, see ^; extend-a-quote]

12/2/2013 11:25:45 AM

I knew it would come back, but I was wrong.

1) Thomas was complete shit.
2) The OL was severely injured this year
3) We had decent receivers, but no one to get the ball to them.
4) DJ Green was very average - but you know DD totally coached him to target a UNC player.

12/2/2013 11:29:00 AM

Quote :

"It's right there in black and white that we had better classes the last two years than Cuse...and Duke"

The services are split on those teams, and obviously you were wrong about Maryland.

Also your claim wasn't restricted to the two years advantageous to your argument, so what about the two years before that? I'd argue those classes to be more impactful to the program at this point than the redshirts and redshirt freshmen you're citing. How about 2011 when we had the worst class in the entire ACC?

12/2/2013 11:31:19 AM

Win one conference game. No sir, I don't think I'm asking for the moon.

12/2/2013 11:31:56 AM

Quote :

"Just because they went to three straight bowl games, doesn't mean they were going to go to another bowl this year"

I don't think anyone was expecting to go to another bowl this year. No one. Flip side of the coin I don't think anyone expected us to lose every single conference game either. Our best conference outing was still a two score loss. We even needed a wing and a prayer to beat Richmond... but no, people are upset because we didn't go to a bowl game?

12/2/2013 11:41:28 AM

I just want to say that there is an awful lot of "would of" on this page. Carry on.

12/2/2013 11:45:35 AM

If no one was expecting us to go to a bowl game this year, then at best, AT BEST they were expecting 5-7.

3-9 is 2 games off that.

People are getting this upset over 2 games at most? Unreal.

12/2/2013 11:47:54 AM

People are upset over our worst conference record in the entire history of the university

12/2/2013 11:50:52 AM

People are upset over our worst conference record in the entire history of the university

12/2/2013 11:51:59 AM

to be fair, it was the first coaching change in the history of the school

12/2/2013 11:53:18 AM

People are upset over our worst conference record in the entire history of the university

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 11:59 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2013 11:59:45 AM

Quote :

" People are getting this upset over 2 games at most? Unreal."

Our last coach was fired over two games.


There's no way he would have been fired if he won 9 games AGAIN last year.

You can even argue that it was only the loss to Virginia that did him in.


Doeren is a big boy. He just went goose eggs in conference play, and fielded a team that looked very butt-rapeable every Saturday this season. He can take the criticism. It comes with the job.

12/2/2013 12:22:57 PM

is it true that we pay Doeren almost $1.8 million/year?

12/2/2013 12:42:23 PM

I don't know how you people expect a coach to win 5 games with that grueling schedule. I mean we had to leave the state twice. What are we, the globetrotters? 8 home games isn't enough. You're asking an awful lot of a first year coach to win games in that situation.

^

Quote :

"Doeren will earn an annual base salary of $750,000 which is the lowest of any head football coach in the ACC"

Dude is saving us money. And we don't have to worry about paying him a bonus for meeting 'athletic and academic goals.'


[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 1:06 PM. Reason : s]

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 1:06 PM. Reason : /]

12/2/2013 1:03:15 PM

Unreal.

12/2/2013 1:04:07 PM

12/2/2013 1:10:01 PM

This guy doesn't get our players to play their fannies off. THAT's the problem.

12/2/2013 6:56:19 PM

still credible

12/2/2013 6:57:08 PM

Quote :

"I don't think anyone was expecting to go to another bowl this year. No one. Flip side of the coin I don't think anyone expected us to lose every single conference game either. Our best conference outing was still a two score loss. We even needed a wing and a prayer to beat Richmond... but no, people are upset because we didn't go to a bowl game?"

After watching the Richmond game, I'm pretty sure nobody was expecting a bowl. But I'll fully admit to thinking a 7 win season was reasonable given our weak schedule. I also wasn't expecting QB play to be anywhere near as awful as it was.

Now, don't mistake my preseason hope/prediction of 7 wins as me thinking we'd actually be good this year. I knew it would be a rebuilding year, but given that awful schedule I didn't think squeaking out 6 or 7 wins to get bowl eligible was unrealistic.

I certainly don't feel like doing it, but I bet you could go back in this thread or the season thread and find people predicting a 7 win season.

[Edited on December 2, 2013 at 7:05 PM. Reason : Bb]

12/2/2013 7:04:46 PM

TOB would have gotten this team to a bowl. DD is supposed to be an upgrade from TOB. I was expecting at least a 6 win season.

12/2/2013 7:11:47 PM