i dont think Schaub sucks but he isn't one of the top 20 QB's in the league...

I dont think that Favre sucks, he's just a QB who is just as likely to lose a game as he is win it for you at this point... he's like a bipolar QB...

The Falcons would not be better with Favre at the helm. Their receivers are better than Atlanta's...


Favre blatantly fumbled early in that game and gave teh Panthers an early lead...


dream up figures? 13 INT's... didn't have to do much dreaming there...

11/2/2005 10:11:44 PM

Our recievers are better , even at third string, because the balls thrown end up remotely fucking close to their hands.

11/2/2005 10:13:29 PM

Quote :

"Favre blatantly fumbled early in that game and gave teh Panthers an early lead..."

An early lead of 20 points?

You just said 20 points.

Quote :

"dream up figures? 13 INT's... didn't have to do much dreaming there..."

Favre has 15 TDs and 13 INTs and 1 Fumble

Vick has 5 TDs and 6 INTs and 2 Fumbles

Those are some great figures your boy is putting up.

11/2/2005 10:23:29 PM

YOU CANT JUST LOOK AT STATS!!!!

Vick doesnt have to throw for as many TD's because he doesnt turn the ball over as much.

Also, Vick doesnt have to throw for as many TD's because he runs for more...

Also, Vick doesn't need to put up as many yards because he's busy protecting leads instead of trying to forge comebacks...

watch Favre play, he's not playing well.

watch Vick play, he is playing well.

11/2/2005 11:26:23 PM

stats dont mean shit

the W is all that matters, if you have a qb that puts you in a position to win most of the time, and can execute during those moments then you have a winner

that said, there are plenty of qbs that I would take right now over favre especially after seeing last weeks performance

11/2/2005 11:50:54 PM

Completely offtopic, but I think Schaub has the skill to be a good starting QB somewhere in the league.

It's interesting to me that Atlanta has that mix--the running QB at starter, with a passing QB as his backup.

11/3/2005 12:07:33 AM

I agree you can't just look at stats...

I agree that the only stat that matters is the win....

I agree that Favre having 13 INTs is laughable...

But the reason Vick doesn't throw for less yards and less TDs is because he is a below average passing QB and can't get it done without his running ability. He only averages around 3 TDs rushing a season, so don't try to make it sound like he has just as many TDs total.

Favre is playing well, with what he has to work with (of course not counting the Cinci or Det game)

Vick's team is winning (running game/defense), he isn't playing that great.
In his last game against the Jets his QB rating was 16.3, where he had for 2 TDs (rushing) and 3 INTS
He completes barely over half of his passes.....
I could go on...

11/3/2005 12:46:37 AM

^ yeah, you could go on... and id still be right when i said he's better than Favre right now.

unfortunately, theres a 10 page thread where I already explained to everyone else why Vick is an elite QB.

run a search for "vick"

11/3/2005 1:26:13 AM

Quote :

"Vick doesnt have to throw for as many TD's because he doesnt turn the ball over as much."

He turns the ball over more than he throws TDs.

Quote :

"Also, Vick doesnt have to throw for as many TD's because he runs for more..."

Even if you add in his rushing touchdowns, he's still 1:1 TD:TO ratio.

Quote :

"Also, Vick doesn't need to put up as many yards because he's busy protecting leads instead of trying to forge comebacks..."

Which is the product of a better team, not a better quarterback.

Quote :

"the W is all that matters, if you have a qb that puts you in a position to win most of the time, and can execute during those moments then you have a winner"

How, exactly, does Vick put them in a position to win? I believe you're confusing him with the defense and running game.

Quote :

"that said, there are plenty of qbs that I would take right now over favre especially after seeing last weeks performance"

How about a few weeks ago when he through for 3 TDs and no interceptions. Or the week before that one where he threw for 4 TDs and 1 interception? Who is putting up comparable numbers to that? Vick?

I get it guys, up until this year the Panthers couldn't beat the Packers to save their souls and now that they've finally done it, out comes the "Favre is beyond washed up" train. It's cute, really.

Quote :

"unfortunately, theres a 10 page thread where I already explained to everyone else why Vick is an elite QB."

And unfortunately there's absolutely nothing to back it up. Not stats and certainly not execution when your second year backup outperformed you on everything except "athleticism".

But you know, he on a last second field goal to the Patriots, so he obviously isn't as good as Vick

11/3/2005 2:04:00 AM

dude the packers beat the panthers because their RB and reciever got injured.

oh wait

11/3/2005 2:08:24 AM

Vick an elite QB is absurd. He is an elite ATHLETE, he is an elite running QB(when he isn't getting hurt or fumbling the ball), and he is one of the most inaccurate QB's in the history of the game.

We've established he gets wins, but we've also established that he has almost NOTHING to do with those wins. We've also established if you take away Warrick Dunn and that run game that ATL wouldn't win a single damn game.

You aren't an elite QB because your team wins games, you're an elite QB if your team is winning games because of what YOU are doing. I mean if they won a SB then you could add to his argument of being a top-tier QB, but he lost to a Philly team without TO last year. And by your reasoning the win/loss goes completely on the QB. So Vick lost to them not his team.

By your reasoning that a W is the only category that matters for a QB, Big Ben is the BEST QB in the league after last year's dominating performance and this year's good start(one loss he wasn't in for). It would also mean that Jason White and Chris Weinke should be two of the best QB's in the NFL after their awesome win-loss record in college.

You can't classify a QB by his record because we've established that his TEAM wins game, all he does is hand the ball off, run some, and turn it over. I mean look at the Jets game, he had 0 passing TD's, and 3 INT's and those 2 rushing TD's he got could have easily been scored by either RB, he just decided to steal their thunder after they moved them all the way down the field.
Passing wise he is 5:6 on passing TD's to INT's.
Rushing wise he's 3:2 on rushing TD's to fumbles.
So when you say he limits the turnovers he is even on total TD's and total turnovers.

I think we could all go on to why you're wrong about Vick, but I think all of us have proven our point to why you're wrong and we're right. Vick doesn't win a damn game for them, their RB's and D do. We've also established if you put Vick in GB and Favre in ATL right now, you wouldn't have an argument because Vick wouldn't have a single win and ATL would probably be undefeated right now(because Brett doesn't miss games).

11/3/2005 9:37:37 AM

vick is winning games and farve isnt, if everything else is equal i would take vick

everything else was equal last year, maybe not this year, who went farther in the playoffs last year...?


case closed

11/3/2005 9:45:20 AM

This argument really isn't fair to Vick....Favre is an icon in the sport who is a sure hall of famer....where Vick has had a couple of decent years and that is about it.....even this year at his age Favre is a better QB....come on I wouldn't even put Vick in the top 5 of QB's in the NFL and you want to compare him to a guy like Bret Favre....Puuuuuulease

11/3/2005 9:51:47 AM

God you guys are being fucking morons and you are making me sick.


Shut the fuck up about Warrick Dunn.


Stop acting like Warrick Dunn is some sick ass running back that can't be stopped and is carrying Vick on his back.

Warrick Dunn is a good running back.... WOW. He's not one of the 5 best in the game, and its debatable if he's even ten. So shut the fuck up already.


You know why Brett Favre throws so many TD passes?? It's because he's a stat hog. Watch a game. They run more playaction passes from the goaline than any team in NFL history. They've done this his entire career. They do this despite having Najeh Davenport the last several years who is more than capable of running it in from the one yard line.

What the fuck do you mean Vick has nothing to do with winning games...? He has absolutely obliterated the defense in 3-4 games this year. Stop looking at stats. NFL stats are FAKE. It doesnt matter how many TD passes Brett Favre threw when they were beating the Saints 52-3. It doesn't matter how many TD passes Brett Favre threw when they were down 30-10 to the Panthers.

Brett Favre isn't a very good QB anymore, and Vick is one of the top 5 in the game.

Sure Peyton is much, much better.... sure you can even throw Carson Palmer ahead of VIck now... perhaps you can still consider Brady better and MAYBE you can make an argument that Eli is already better....

now where the fuck are you gonna go? Are you going to tell me that McNabb (who was 33% completion last week) is better? Please don't because that was a 50/50 argument BEFORE the season, but the two havent even been comparable this year...

Dont even try that Trent Green or Jake Delhomme shit on me this time around.

Brett Favre???????? You have got to be kidding me.

If Mike Vick had 13 INT's right now, there'd be a million threads proclaiming he's the worst QB in the league.


Give it up guys.... Atlanta is probably going to the Super Bowl this year.. At some point you are going to be forced to admit Vick is nasty

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 10:47 AM. Reason : a]

11/3/2005 10:44:52 AM

nasty because of stds?

11/3/2005 10:49:16 AM

Quote :

"vick is winning games and farve isnt"

Vick isn't winning games. The Falcons are winning games.
Favre isn't winning games. The Packers aren't winning games.

One of those teams has the best rushing offense in the league and has played against four out of the bottom five teams against the rush.
The other team is down to using its third string running back (and 30th in the league in rushing overall).

So gee, I wonder why the Falcons are winning games and the Packers are having trouble pulling games out at the end.

11/3/2005 10:50:14 AM

FAVRE IS LOSING GAMES.

HE ISNT VERY GOOD ANYMORE.


THE FALCONS ARE GOOD AT RUNNING THE BALL BECAUSE VICK IS GOOD AT RUNNING THE BALL

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 10:51 AM. Reason : a]

11/3/2005 10:51:19 AM

i love listening to people act like they are the know all of a sport.

11/3/2005 10:53:10 AM

alirght i know i come off as a know it all sometimes...

and thats partially because i do know more than basically everyone.

i mean i do watch nearly every single NFL game each week...


but anyone that can watch those games and not deduce that Vick is a better QB than Favre is just being an idiot...


this isn't a who is better McNabb or Vick argument that could go either way.... this is Vick and Favre


Favre for gods sake....

11/3/2005 11:04:13 AM

Quote :

"FAVRE IS LOSING GAMES."

What other option do they have?

Short of Peyton, who could be having a better season as the quarterback of the Packers when the defense knows that every down is going to be a passing play?

How many interceptions would any other quarterback have?

Christ, Vick would probably have about 700 at this point if he were on the Packers.

Quote :

"THE FALCONS ARE GOOD AT RUNNING THE BALL BECAUSE VICK IS GOOD AT RUNNING THE BALL"

HAVING THE #4 RUSHER IN THE LEAGUE DOESN'T HELP

NOT AT ALL

PLAYING TEAMS THAT ARE SHITTY AGAINST THE RUN DOESN'T HELP

NOT AT ALL

THEY ARE A GREAT TEAM BECAUSE THEY HAVE A GOOD OL AND THEIR QUARTERBACK IS A GLORIFIED RUNNING BACK

Tell me though, in all honesty, how is Vick a better quarterback? He's a shitty passer and all he does is scramble. What are the advantages to having him as a quarterback instead of a running back or wide receiver?

What is it that he does so elite-ly at quarterback?

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 11:06 AM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 11:06:04 AM

Dunn is not a top 5 RB this year? Interesting because even with a BYE he is ranked 4th in rushing yards. So yeah that OL and run game have NOTHING to do with them being ranked 1st in the rush

And McNabb is putting up better numbers than Vick and he is playing hurt. You think Vick would have the balls to play with sports hernia? Don't think so, Vick wouldn't play with a stumped toe let alone something like sports hernia which would limit his running. I could see Vick now with sports hernia, it would take away his running ability and force him to actually pass, haha, that would be hilarious to watch. So don't start talking shit about McNabb, remember, MCNABB beat VICK last year in the playoffs and he did it in 2002 as well. So according to straight wins McNabb has beaten Vick more times and in more important games, so according to your logic McNabb is indeed better than Vick.

Hell according to your logic of records proving how good a QB is, so is Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Jake Delhomme, Matt Hasselback, Carson Palmer, Big Ben, and the Manning Brothers. And according to your logic, Griese won those games not the D or running game, and Matt Hasselback won those games not Alexander. Also Big Ben won those games and not their D or Willie Parker.

Notice those winning teams? Almost all(save Palmer) rely heavily on the run game and their D. Vick does JUST enough not to lose them the game, but if you think by any stretch of the imagination that he WINS them games, HA, that's just plain funny and you need to watch some football and take Vick's dick out of your mouth, I mean you don't know where that thing's been.

11/3/2005 11:09:05 AM

THats it.

Im done with brentroad for a month.

i cant take you guys anymore.


Logic goes right out the window on here.

on one hand its okay to say that Jay Davis sucks.

On the other hand its not okay to say the Brett Favre sucks.


try watching a game instead of reading a box score for once in your fucking lives.

v
i havent drank on a sunday this season.... college football is the sport that needs beer to make it exciting

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 11:20 AM. Reason : a]

11/3/2005 11:12:00 AM

Quote :

"try watching a game sober"

Fixed for you.

11/3/2005 11:16:28 AM

HAHAHHAHA

RALLY WAS SO WRONG HE FUCKING QUIT

HAHAHAHAH

ps: if vick had 15 TD passes this year, i would be on the hype train with you.


Im going to create the rallydurham one month countdown, and i will even make a posting flow chart so people can fill in the void.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 11:22 AM. Reason : . STAY TUNED]

11/3/2005 11:20:16 AM

Quote :

" Even if you add in his rushing touchdowns, he's still 1:1 TD:TO ratio. "

favre possesses the same ratio

11/3/2005 11:28:38 AM

YEAH BUT LOOK AT THE FUCKING MAGNITUDE

11/3/2005 11:29:47 AM

the falcons won games last year too so did the packers... who went farther.... the falcons


case closed the same will be true this year, yes the packers have a lot of injuries, even if they didnt the falcons and vick would still be better then the packers, they proved it last year, yes it is a different year but nothing has changed roster wise that would swing it one way or another

11/3/2005 11:37:08 AM

hahahahahah

MrUniverse comes in with breakthrough logic.

We arnt debating the wins or loses of a team. Jesus christ thats fucking obvious, the packers have won one game. We are debating the skills and usefullness of a player to a team.

Its pretty fucking obvious that if you took favre off the packers they would suck EVEN more (THATS ALMOST HARD TO FATHOM, THEY ARE TERRIBLE).

Its also pretty fucking obvious if you took vick off the falcons they would still be a decent team, with some quality wins (MORE THEN ONE FOR CHRISTS SAKE).

11/3/2005 11:44:40 AM

^ Where the hell are you getting that from?

The Falcons record the last three years when Vick doesnt start is 2-12.

Also, in the game where Vick only played one series before being rested for the playoffs, the falcons lost with Schaub.

SO basically Schaub was 0-3 and Johnson was 2-10.


Tell me what other starting QBs in the league would be 1-6 on the Packers?


okay one month begins now.

btw, since i wont get a chance to reply i cant WAIT to see this list of other QBs that would be 1-6

i might have to use a mulligan and post after i see that list


[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 12:07 PM. Reason : a]

11/3/2005 12:04:21 PM

im going to have to escort you to this thread rally

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=362432

11/3/2005 12:05:16 PM

Quote :

"We arnt debating the wins or loses of a team. Jesus christ thats fucking obvious, the packers have won one game. We are debating the skills and usefullness of a player to a team. "

true but in a way you can be, cause wins and loses can be a direct results of players


cant have one without the other [/ married with children]

11/3/2005 12:12:33 PM

I guess Delhomme = Vick then

awesome, we have a stud behind center!

11/3/2005 1:16:57 PM

Quote :

"favre possesses the same ratio"

Oh?

15 TDs : 13 INTs and 1 Fumble

15:14

Fucking christ, when you lost your ability to reason did you lose your ability to add too?

Quote :

"true but in a way you can be, cause wins and loses can be a direct results of players"

players

You know, the players who make up the rushing game and the defense.

Not the player who pretends to be a QB.

Quote :

"btw, since i wont get a chance to reply i cant WAIT to see this list of other QBs that would be 1-6"

Name one that wouldn't other than maybe Manning. Name a quarterback who is good enough alone to work through a patchwork offensive line, a third string running back, one good receiver, two other guys who should be third and fourth options AT BEST and up until about two games ago a backup TE who hardly had any playtime coming into the game.

And add that onto a shitty defense!


[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 1:36 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 1:31:52 PM

If all we are going to do is look at stats, then the QB for Texas Tech should win the Heisman hands down, because the stats he throws up are just fucking sick


^Vick did it his first year.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 1:45:49 PM

^Maybe when there are 117 NFL teams (not to mention the 1-AA NFL) that argument will be valid.

11/3/2005 2:06:33 PM

Let me put it another way....If Vick was the Packers QB right now he would quit football !!! Favre is not what he once was.....but he still is better than Vick....oh and so is Manning, Brady, Palmer McNabb, Bledsoe, Bulger, Plummer, and Roethlisberger.....oh I forgot Plummer and Delome...they are better also.....Vick is a running QB like Cunningham was but not as good as Cunningham !!

11/3/2005 2:19:05 PM

From NFL.com:

Quote :

"Records The Record & Fact Book contains NFL records for offensive, defensive and team categories. Click on the categories below. Individual Records Service Scoring Touchdowns PATs Field Goals Rushing Passing Receiving Yards from scrimmage Kick returns Punt returns Combined Yardage Punting Interceptions Sacks Safeties Fumbles Miscellaneous Team Records Championships Games Won Games Lost Games Tied Scoring Touchdowns PATs Field Goals Safeties First Downs Net Yards Gained Rushing Passing Punting Punt Returns Kick Returns Fumbles Turnovers Penalties Defensive Records Scoring First Downs Net Yards Allowed Rushing Passing Kick Returns Punt Returns Turnovers Interceptions Sacks Fumbles"

Please notice that "Games Won" is not listed under "Individual Records". Thank you.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 2:30:05 PM

Quote :

"^Vick did it his first year."

I guess by "first year", you mean "second year" unless you're talking about 2001 where he started a grand total of 2 games.

2002, where Dunn rushed for nearly 1,000 yards and they were #4 in the league in rushing with 2368 combined yards.

Keep in mind, this year, the Green Bay Packers after 7 games have a combined 510 yards on the ground.

I will admit though, Vick did have good numbers in 2002.

11/3/2005 2:40:45 PM

Quote :

"Favre is not what he once was.....but he still is better than Vick....oh and so is Manning, Brady, Palmer McNabb, Bledsoe, Bulger, Plummer, and Roethlisberger.....oh I forgot Plummer and Delome...they are better also.....Vick is a running QB like Cunningham was but not as good as Cunningham !! "

You just lost any cred you might have had. Sure, they are better passers maybe, but Vick is a better all around QB and player. The exception being Manning. Like its been said before, Vick makes the big plays to put his team in the spot where they can win or keep leads. He makes plays on the ground, that cant be made by any other QBs in the same position. He is one of the main reasons they win games. And like its been said before, if he isnt so important, then why can they pretty much never win without him? You're just trying to troll shouting out names like Bulger and Bledsoe. Vick is a better running QB than all of them, they are better passers, so you really cant say one is better than the other. Last time I checked, being a great QB didnt totally have to deal with passing stats. Its the PLAYS that matter. And Vick makes the plays happen more than any other QB.

11/3/2005 3:02:14 PM

I lost Cred ...what because you disagree....I don't think so....first I was making the point I think Favre is still a better all around QB....Most of being a qb is passing but also what makes a good QB is decision making.....the only skill that Vick is better than any of the other QB's I mentioned is running...they are as you said all better passers than him...and most if not all are better decision makers....Vick's first instinct is ...run.....that should not be a QB's first thought....I will give you this. If they ever start rating QB's on their ability to run or scramble then Vick will be on the top.....but that is all he excells at...the rest of his QB skills are....so so.

11/3/2005 3:16:02 PM

there is no maybe about it, they are all better passers than vick.

Atlanta loses when vick doesnt play because the team is molded to fit his type of play, not because he is some god of a qb.

Quote :

"Vick makes the plays happen more than any other QB."

stats dont support this. And by stats i mean touchdowns scored, turnovers, etc.

11/3/2005 3:19:26 PM

He sure makes a lot of the right decisions for him to not be good at making them. I really hope the win the Super Bowl this year so you people will get off his nuts. I guess all the people on TV who know a lot more about sports that us on here are all wrong then when they say Vick is one of the best QBs in the league


Once again, STATS DONT MEAN SHIT. He makes a shit ton of small plays that allow his team to win. Stats arent going to reflect that.


And like I said before, the Texas Tech QB has got to be a lock for the Heisman since his stats our WAY better than anyone elses. I mean, how could he lose, cause he has got to be a god of a QB with stats like that.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 3:19:56 PM

Quote :

"I really hope the win the Super Bowl this year so you people will get off his nuts."

Because that worked so well for Trent Dilfer.

He's doing the same thing Vick is doing now, after all.

Quote :

"And like its been said before, if he isnt so important, then why can they pretty much never win without him?"

Because two years ago his backup was Doug Johnson.

Because last year the only two games started by Schaub were well after Atlanta clinched and was resting a lot of the team.

Because the game this year was lost on a last second field goal against the defending champions.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 3:36 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 3:33:52 PM

So what will it take for you to say Vick is a great QB?? Very good passing stats? Obviously winning a Super Bowl isn't going to do it for you.

Oh, and using the logic of most of the people in this thread, no stats for a QB are relavent since the team makes most of them happen, the line blocks for the QB, the WR makes some plays to get open, so the QB really has nothing to do with it.

[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 3:43 PM. Reason : .]

11/3/2005 3:42:10 PM

Quote :

"I really hope the win the Super Bowl this year so you people will get off his nuts."

the only one on his nuts is you, like really hardcore.

I dont think he is a great QB. He is a great athlete, but not a toprunner at all for who I would want at QB for my pro team.

I mean I like the guy, dont have a problem with him. if he wins the superbowl great. I still wouldnt take him over a few other QBs.

Bradys superbowls dont make me want to take him over manning.

11/3/2005 3:48:40 PM

You guys just love to hate him. And you cant use common sense when realizing how good he is.

11/3/2005 3:55:39 PM

Quote :

"Name a quarterback who is good enough alone to work through a patchwork offensive line, a third string running back, one good receiver, two other guys who should be third and fourth options AT BEST and up until about two games ago a backup TE who hardly had any playtime coming into the game. "

The panthers were equally if not more depleted last year, and their final record last year seems unreachable for the packers at this point. So yeah, Delhomme performed better last year with the same level of adversity(although at this point last year the panthers were 1-6, but I don't think GB will go 6-3 from here out) I am not saying Delhomme is the best in the league or anything, so dont say i am blinded by my love for the panthers, I would just say delhomme is one of the 10 or so QBs I would rather have on my team before Favre.

Quote :

"Fucking christ, when you lost your ability to reason did you lose your ability to add too?"

yahoo shows 15 tds, 13 INTs, and 2 Fumbles Lost, so I saw 15:15. doesnt really matter though, those numbers woulda been just as shitty at 15:14.

I didnt lose my ability to reason, you are the one who thinks Favre is second only to Peyton Manning in the NFL. I think its time for you to take down the Favre poster from over your bed and hope aaron rodgers develops.



[Edited on November 3, 2005 at 4:11 PM. Reason : d]

11/3/2005 4:06:10 PM

Quote :

"Bradys superbowls dont make me want to take him over manning. "

who cares about superbowls if you have good stats?

11/3/2005 4:08:29 PM

Quote :

"You guys just love to hate him. And you cant use common sense when realizing how good he is."

The moment you started talking about heisman should be winners, we just skipped right over your posts.

Stick to putting your cock between your legs MacGyver.

11/3/2005 4:27:02 PM

Quote :

"The panthers were equally if not more depleted last year, and their final record last year seems unreachable"

Uh...

Do tell, what is the big difference between the Panthers last year and the Packers this year? What, exactly, makes the Panthers start last year at 1-7 any different from the Packers 1-6 start this year?

Homerism?

Quote :

"You guys just love to hate him. And you cant use common sense when realizing how good he is."

I have absolutely nothing against Vick, but to say he's an elite quarterback or anything like that is beyond laughable.

11/3/2005 4:37:05 PM