Quote :

"Dude cluster bombs are the mother of all evil"

I'm going to have to agree with Trap on this point. They are certainly indescriminate weapons but I can live with their use in certain situations. The issue with them that scares me to no end is the fact that 5 or 10% (cant remember which off the top of my head) of the bomblets from each bomb do not explode on impact. This poses a threat long after the fighting has ended and civilians have returned.

In my time living and working in Bosnia, I encountered this type of unexploded ordnance. Sure, landmines scare me but you can generally predict the regions and areas where they may be located. Not the case with cluster bombs, we found a bomblet in the median of a gravel lot used by children as an impromptu playground.

11/8/2005 2:59:00 PM

Quote :

"30thAnnZ: i'm done with you. you are a fucktard. you can go back to drooling now."

You had enough?

Look, moron. The London Independent article quoted Jimmy Massey as well. Are you going to call them or the author Popham a "dumb fuck" and "fucktard" also?

http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/falluja_us_forces_used_chem_weapons_during_assault.htm

Quote :

"US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah London Independent | November 8, 2005 By Peter Popham Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon. Ever since the assault, which went unreported by any Western journalists, rumours have swirled that the Americans used chemical weapons on the city. On 10 November last year, the Islam Online website wrote: "US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988." The website quoted insurgent sources as saying: "The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally banned chemical weapons." In December the US government formally denied the reports, describing them as "widespread myths". "Some news accounts have claimed that US forces have used 'outlawed' phosphorus shells in Fallujah," the USinfo website said. "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. "They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters." But now new information has surfaced, including hideous photographs and videos and interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which provides graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon. In a documentary to be broadcast by RAI, the Italian state broadcaster, this morning, a former American soldier who fought at Fallujah says: "I heard the order to pay attention because they were going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah. In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete. "Phosphorus burns bodies, in fact it melts the flesh all the way down to the bone ... I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for." Photographs on the website of RaiTG24, the broadcaster's 24-hours news channel, http://www.rainews24.it, show exactly what the former soldier means. Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved or caramelised or turned the consistency of leather by the shells. A biologist in Fallujah, Mohamad Tareq, interviewed for the film, says: "A rain of fire fell on the city, the people struck by this multi-coloured substance started to burn, we found people dead with strange wounds, the bodies burned but the clothes intact." The documentary, entitled Fallujah: the Hidden Massacre, also provides what it claims is clinching evidence that incendiary bombs known as Mark 77, a new, improved form of napalm, was used in the attack on Fallujah, in breach of the UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons of 1980, which only allows its use against military targets. Meanwhile, five US soldiers from the elite 75th Ranger Regiment have been charged with kicking and punching detainees in Iraq. The news came as a suicide car bomber killed four American soldiers at a checkpoint south of Baghdad yesterday."

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 3:07 PM. Reason : 1]

11/8/2005 3:05:57 PM

i'm done after this post.

find one embedded reporter that was with massey's unit that saw anything like that.

FIND ONE.

not to mention any other marines. do you think that nobody else would corroborate this if it really happened? REALLY?

so yes, anybody that buys this guy's bullshit is a FUCKTARD. JUST LIKE YOU.

11/8/2005 3:16:53 PM

^ i suggest you get a new dictionary and/or engage in intelligent discussion. when someone disagrees, its allways f tard this and that. perhaps its a learned behavioral auto-response when coming under criticism/or brainwashed response. what about kindness, if u were not taught this, well there is always room for improvement. . thanks

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 3:23 PM. Reason : 30]

11/8/2005 3:20:11 PM

why don't you go beat off to those pics some more, cockhead

11/8/2005 3:20:55 PM

seriously...you have 999 people saying one thing, and 1 guy saying another, and you believe that 1 because it fits your agenda.

Quote :

" the government and their controlled media"

uhh, yeaaaah. you are a goddamned retard. you don't think that embedded reporters would say shit if they saw atrocities being committed?

oh, no, i forgot...they're on Uncle Sam's payroll, too.





and SkiSalomon...that's pretty much what i said about cluster bombs. i just didn't know the % of unexploded submunitions.

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 3:26 PM. Reason : asdf]

11/8/2005 3:26:25 PM

it took him 3 pages to get to infowars
thats got to be a record

11/8/2005 3:33:03 PM

Quote :

"so yes, anybody that buys this guy's bullshit is a FUCKTARD. JUST LIKE YOU"

The article attacking Massey you started a thread on is nothing more than a poorly written hit piece (as evidenced by the blatant manipulation in the last sentence of the article).

Massey is not alone in his claims that U.S. soldiers have intentionally gunned down Iraqi civilians. This has been documented and reported by many other sources.

Why here's an article from the London Mirror:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13087653_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-US-TROOPS-ADMIT-SHOOTING-IRAQI-CIVILIANS-name_page.html

Quote :

"US TROOPS ADMIT SHOOTING IRAQI CIVILIANS Jun 19 2003 By Naveed Raja American troops today admitted they routinely gun down Iraqi civilians - some of whom are entirely innocent. As distrust of the invading forces increases amongst the local population US soldiers said they have killed civilians without hesitation, shot injured opponents and abandoned them to die in agony. The testimonies of the troops on the ground further expose George Bush's claims about the role his forces are playing in the failing reconstruction of Iraq. Sergeant First Class John Meadows summed up the prevailing attitude amongst his colleagues telling the Evening Standard that Iraqi fighters were dressed in civilian clothes. "You can't distinguish between who's trying to kill you and who's not," he said. "Like, the only way to get through s*** like that was to concentrate on getting through it by killing as many people as you can, people you know are trying to kill you. Killing them first and getting home." And in an admission that directly contrasts with the line coming out from the Pentagon's spin doctors Specialist Corporal Michael Richardson added: "There was no dilemma when it came to shooting people who were not in uniform, I just pulled the trigger."

As for control of the press...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563909.stm

Quote :

"The Pentagon and the press Wednesday, 26 September, 2001 By BBC News Online's Kevin Anderson in Washington While the US prepares for a war on terrorism, the media is preparing for a battle for information. US military commanders in the Gulf War tightly controlled access to information during the Gulf War, restricting most journalists to escorted pools. And the media is concerned that President George W Bush's administration will have similar policies with respect to the control of information, especially owing the role key members of the present administration played in the Gulf War. Vice President Dick Cheney was then Secretary of Defence, and Secretary of State Colin Powell was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But with special operations troops expected to take a lead role in the conflict, this might be a war fought mostly in secret. "

If they Pentagon can control if reporters are allowed in a certain area, they can control what things they don't want the media to see. And if they can do this, why can't they then also control what is written? Even if embedded reporters did see these atrocities committed, do you think that the Pentagon would let it get published? Why do you think the Pentagon refused to release the photos of dead returning from Iraq? By the way, after Katrina, the government and military was prohibitting reporters from taking or publishing photographs of the dead. Do you really believe that the government doesn't control the information released to the public?

You guys keep living in fantasy land. I'm living in reality.


[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 4:05 PM. Reason : 5]

11/8/2005 4:00:45 PM

Quote :

" Specialist Corporal Michael Richardson added: "There was no dilemma when it came to shooting people who were not in uniform, I just pulled the trigger.""

1. No such thing as a "Specialist Corporal"
2. No shit. What difference does it make if they're in uniform if they're enemy?

FYI, as a side note to that 2nd statement, combatants not in uniform are not legally combatants at all when it comes to protection under treaties. we just honor it most of the time, anyway.

11/8/2005 4:13:46 PM

to clarify additionaly you dont have to be in a uniform as we traditionally think about it to be in uniform

11/8/2005 4:23:19 PM

Quote :

"You guys keep living in fantasy land. I'm living in reality."

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11/8/2005 4:36:41 PM

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11/8/2005 4:37:05 PM

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11/8/2005 4:37:32 PM

HA!

11/8/2005 4:37:53 PM

now I remember why I don't read threads started by salisburyboy.

most gullible anti-american gov't guy in the world.

11/8/2005 4:40:12 PM

Quote :

"now I remember why I don't read threads started by salisburyboy. most gullible anti-american gov't guy in the world."

The London Independent and BBC have reported on this. Are you saying the story is bogus?

11/8/2005 4:45:25 PM

Quote :

"30thAnnZ: "i'm done after this post.""

A lie?! By someone brushing off atrocities committed against Iraqi civilians. I'm shocked.

11/8/2005 4:47:41 PM

even if its true, nobody fucking cares. maybe you can't see that.

11/8/2005 4:49:23 PM

^^ i was done refuting you.

and i still am.

now i'm laughing.

11/8/2005 4:51:34 PM

Quote :

"even if its true, nobody fucking cares. maybe you can't see that."

Yeah, I mean, who cares if our military intentionally kills Iraqi citizens and uses chemical weapons on them? And who cares if we torture them at Abu Ghraib?

So what if we're supposedly "delivering democracy and freedom" to them? Torturing and murdering civilians is how you bring freedom.

11/8/2005 4:58:29 PM

it's time for your pill now, sweetheart.

11/8/2005 4:59:52 PM

Quote :

"who cares if our military intentionally kills Iraqi citizens and uses chemical weapons on them? "

except that it wasnt intentional (so its not surprising theres no evidence claiming that) and they didnt use chemical weapons

11/8/2005 5:03:42 PM

IF U DONT LIKE HOW SHIT IS RUN GET OFF THE FUCKIN INTERNET AND DO SOMETHIN ABOUT IT!!!! TODAY WAS ELECTION DAY AND I GUARANTEE U DIDNT EVEN GET OUT TO FUCKIN VOTE!

11/8/2005 5:03:50 PM

Quote :

"i mean, it's not a shot from a sniper's rifle, but it's relatively accurate, and the potential for collateral damage is much, much less than with NBC."

that's a pretty bad standard to judge a weapon's accuracy by, don't you think?

anyway, it is pretty accurate, isn't it:

Quote :

"Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 metres is done for."

11/8/2005 5:39:40 PM

Quote :

"that's a pretty bad standard to judge a weapon's accuracy by, don't you think?"

that's the point i was trying to make.


at any rate, i didn't say it was particularly surgical in its application (although arty's blast is nothing compared to even a small bomb dropped from an aircraft). i just said it was accurate. the fact that it tears the shit out of things up to maybe a couple hundred yards is just part of its utility. we have 60mm and 81mm mortars for when we want a smaller kill zone, then shoulder launched (or HMMWV launched) stuff when we wanna go smaller than that...then grenade launchers.

there's kind of a spectrum, and they can pick what they think is best suited (small arms...machine guns...heavy machine guns/mk19...SMAW/AT4/Javelin/TOW...small mortars...big mortars...arty...close air support...heavy bombers). sometimes they'll deviate based on what's available, and sometimes they'll drop a 500 lb bomb to kill one sniper (no kidding)...but they try their best to tailor the weapon used to the situation.

and really, usually it's a combination. different weapons are employed simultaneously to put the enemy in a no-win situation (for example, mortar fire while our troops advance...if the enemy tries to come out and fire on our troops, they die from mortar blast. if they stay down to survive the mortars, they get overrun. placing the enemy on those "horns of dilemma", along with exploiting weaknesses to attack key strengths, are what USMC doctrine revolves around.

although it looks to my only semi-educated eye that fighting insurgents in Iraq is much more of an attrition warfare affair, which is what we preach against. i guess it's kinda hard to fight that sort of war without getting bogged down in attrition warfare to a greater degree than we prefer.)

11/8/2005 6:42:19 PM

Quote :

"If they Pentagon can control if reporters are allowed in a certain area, they can control what things they don't want the media to see. And if they can do this, why can't they then also control what is written? Even if embedded reporters did see these atrocities committed, do you think that the Pentagon would let it get published? Why do you think the Pentagon refused to release the photos of dead returning from Iraq? By the way, after Katrina, the government and military was prohibitting reporters from taking or publishing photographs of the dead. Do you really believe that the government doesn't control the information released to the public? You guys keep living in fantasy land. I'm living in reality. "

very very well said. i got to give it to u salisbury... .. and also, what about the deliberate killing of journalists in iraq? (what is it now over 60 or more?) im sure there are many articles written in a sad attempt to control information outflow... anyone have links to this? i rem. some articles some time ago...

11/8/2005 6:44:10 PM

wow, i actually gave you too much credit before (which, believe me, wasn't enough to even be measureable to begin with).

you really are as much of a dumbass lunatic as salisburyboy.

11/8/2005 6:50:13 PM

if they can control the reporters why would they kill them?

11/8/2005 6:51:07 PM

and why would the press constantly crush politicians every time they make the slightest misstep?

11/8/2005 6:52:16 PM

i'm willing to bet xyzabc is salisbury

11/8/2005 6:52:25 PM

no, i think it's pretty obvious that salisburyboy is either clueless or indifferent to shortcomings in credibility...either his own or his sources.

in layman's terms, he don't give a shit if everyone on the planet thinks he should be taken away by the men in white coats and committed.

11/8/2005 6:54:29 PM

and in fact thinking that everyone is against him just makes his beleifs stronger

11/8/2005 7:04:36 PM

Are there any regulations prohibiting the use of WP on humans?

11/8/2005 7:10:24 PM

i wonder if he's able to hold down a job for more than a month

11/8/2005 7:10:51 PM

As soon as Bush and/or Cheney deny this claim, then I'll know it's true.

11/8/2005 7:23:27 PM

Quote :

"Last December, the US state department issued a denial of what it called "widespread myths" about the use of illegal weapons in Falluja. "Phosphorus shells are not outlawed. US forces have used them very sparingly in Falluja, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night, not at enemy fighters," the US statement said. "

interesting. its called denial nowdays.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4417024.stm

11/9/2005 1:20:39 AM

Contradiction of what you want to believe = denial?

So are you sure that you aren't salisburyboy?

11/9/2005 2:16:02 AM

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20051108/2005-11-08T204233Z_01_MCC874503_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-USA-WEAPONS-DC.html

Quote :

"US denies using white phosphorus on Iraqi civilians Nov 8, 2005 By Phil Stewart ROME (Reuters) - The U.S. military in Iraq denied a report shown on Italian state television on Tuesday saying U.S. forces used incendiary white phosphorus against civilians in a November 2004 offensive on the Iraqi town of Falluja."

And remember, "they don't use torture" either!!

Oh, and "Iraq definitely has WMDS"!!

More commentary:

Quote :

"This sounds like more of the usual "weasel wording" we get from the US Government, like how they denied using Napalm on the Iraqis because the jelled combustible weapon now goes by a different name. So maybe they don't have a weapon that's labeled "White Phosphorus". Maybe it's labeled the Mk-2017-PHUK-u-mod-B, but there sure is something dropping out of those aircraft that is white hot, and the civilians it lands on are being burned to a crisp. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ "

[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 9:41 AM. Reason : 1]

11/9/2005 9:40:13 AM

11/9/2005 9:42:47 AM

FLASHBACK:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=647397

Quote :

"US lied to Britain over use of napalm in Iraq war By Colin Brown Deputy Political Editor 06/17/05--American officials lied to British ministers over the use of "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq. Yesterday's disclosure led to calls by MPs for a full statement to the Commons and opened ministers to allegations that they held back the facts until after the general election. Despite persistent rumours of injuries among Iraqis consistent with the use of incendiary weapons such as napalm, Adam Ingram, the Defence minister, assured Labour MPs in January that US forces had not used a new generation of incendiary weapons, codenamed MK77, in Iraq. But Mr Ingram admitted to the Labour MP Harry Cohen in a private letter obtained by The Independent that he had inadvertently misled Parliament because he had been misinformed by the US. "The US confirmed to my officials that they had not used MK77s in Iraq at any time and this was the basis of my response to you," he told Mr Cohen. "I regret to say that I have since discovered that this is not the case and must now correct the position." Mr Ingram said 30 MK77 firebombs were used by the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in the invasion of Iraq between 31 March and 2 April 2003. They were used against military targets "away from civilian targets", he said. This avoids breaching the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), which permits their use only against military targets. Britain, which has no stockpiles of the weapons, ratified the convention, but the US did not. "

SEE! THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY NEVER LIES!! EVER!

11/9/2005 9:47:52 AM

Quote :

"Mr Ingram said 30 MK77 firebombs were used by the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in the invasion of Iraq between 31 March and 2 April 2003. They were used against military targets "away from civilian targets", he said. This avoids breaching the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (CCW), which permits their use only against military targets."

11/9/2005 10:01:52 AM

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! THE U.S. MILITARY DID NOT USE MK77s IN IRAQ AT ANY TIME! THE GUVMINT SAID SO!!

AND THEY DON'T TORTURE PEOPLE EITHER!

11/9/2005 10:07:26 AM

AND THEY SAID YOU'RE NOT BAT SHIT CRAZY!

11/9/2005 10:11:35 AM

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2005/101105phosphorus_Falluja.htm

Quote :

"U.S. Army publication confirms United States used incendiary weapon in Falluja RAW Story | November 10 2005 The March edition of Field Artillery magazine, a U.S. Army publication, reveals that the U.S. military did in fact use the incendiary weapon white phosphorous in Fallujah, Iraq, a Daily Kos diarist has found. "WP [i.e., white phosphorus rounds] proved to be an effective and versatile munition," the article's author wrote. "We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out." A second publication, Infantry Magazine, also alleges that white phosphorous was used near the Iraqi city of Irbil. Newsroom sources tell RAW STORY that the New York Times held a story they were scheduled to run on the weapon's use Thursday."

11/10/2005 12:09:33 PM

ITS LEGAL TO YOU USE WP
YOU CAN STOP POSTING LINKS BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS SAID MULTIPLE TIMES THAT IT IS USED

11/10/2005 12:16:45 PM

The point is that it was used directly "on" civilians and "insurgents", and not just for "lighting" purposes.

11/10/2005 12:20:33 PM

its already been established that it was used on insurgents
stop posting links and read some

11/10/2005 12:22:08 PM

Yeah, I know it was established. But here we have the army ADMITTING it. That was the purpose of the post.

Now, why don't you read some.

11/10/2005 12:23:51 PM

IMPORTANT NEWSFLASH: MILITARY USES LEGAL WEAPONS ON INSURGENTS

SOMEONE STOP THE PRESSES WE NEED TO GET THIS OUT NOW

11/10/2005 12:26:13 PM

YES BUT YOU SAY THE GOVERNMENT ALWAYS LIES!

SO HERE WHEN THEY ADMIT IT, I MEANS THEY DIDN'T DO IT!

SO YOUR WHOLE ARGUEMENT IS OUT THE WINDOW!

BLACK HELICOPTERS!

btw, look out the window, i'm taking your picture again. and try to smile bigger this time, plz.

11/10/2005 12:26:52 PM