^^ And in the long term, rail is still a dumb idea for intracity travel. If you absolutely need a dedicated right of way, buses will use it to far better effect, since buses can pull on and off the dedicated right of way at will.

6/18/2010 8:16:03 AM

^ not necessarily, my friend. In the particular city where I live, (granted, it isn't light rail, so maybe I should shut up) the subway is hella better than the bus... but of course it depends on where you're going.

sometimes you need both, but to be sure, the subway is indeed a speedy thing. I take the subway 40 minutes to work. bam, I'm there; getting to/fro the subway station adds about an extra 10 minutes. If I took the bus, in all the traffic (unfortunately we don't have dedicated bus lanes), it would take probably 1 hr 20 mins or more in the morning traffic (which is about like the beltline in the morning)

[Edited on June 18, 2010 at 9:32 AM. Reason : ]

6/18/2010 9:31:14 AM

in sim city, it was bad if you went subway too early.

6/18/2010 9:39:00 AM

So what is the difference between light rail and say, the JR trains:

6/18/2010 10:12:35 AM

According to wikipedia:

Quote :

"Light rail or light rail transit (LRT) is a form of urban rail public transportation that generally has a lower capacity and lower speed than heavy rail and metro systems, but higher capacity and higher speed than traditional street-running tram systems"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail


[Edited on June 18, 2010 at 11:34 AM. Reason : kekekkkekekekekeke ]

[Edited on June 18, 2010 at 11:35 AM. Reason : so, meh... Raleigh needs subway, not light rail. Then more people will come... build it, and ....]

6/18/2010 11:32:18 AM

Yeah I'd rather see regular old trains for regional travel.

6/18/2010 11:56:50 AM

why does everyone think people are going to use this.

or does everyone think future people* are going to use this.

*the people that don't live here yet but will start sprouting up along the train line

6/18/2010 12:37:36 PM

I would use it and all I care about is me

6/18/2010 12:42:23 PM

give me $1000 of your money now and I will give you $2000 future dollars

in the future

maybe

6/18/2010 12:48:13 PM

Who said I gave a damn if it ran a profit?

6/18/2010 12:50:01 PM

light rail make a profile? LOL, tell me another one

6/18/2010 1:55:31 PM

6/18/2010 1:59:54 PM

I'm gonna guess....

2018 light rail system finally opens

2031 light rail expansion opens

6/18/2010 2:00:04 PM

^^I'm not straining my eyes to read that.

6/18/2010 2:19:42 PM

Yeah it's a shame it's so small

6/18/2010 5:20:04 PM

Quote :

"^ not necessarily, my friend. In the particular city where I live, (granted, it isn't light rail, so maybe I should shut up) the subway is hella better than the bus... but of course it depends on where you're going. sometimes you need both, but to be sure, the subway is indeed a speedy thing. I take the subway 40 minutes to work. bam, I'm there; getting to/fro the subway station adds about an extra 10 minutes. If I took the bus, in all the traffic (unfortunately we don't have dedicated bus lanes), it would take probably 1 hr 20 mins or more in the morning traffic (which is about like the beltline in the morning) "

You fail to recognize what your city might have otherwise had if it didn't spend all its dough in one place. All those roads and extra lanes that went unbuilt, causing both bus and road traffic to back up. All those bus lines to areas of the city that are otherwise unserved by mass-transit. The dedicated bus lanes and roads that would have made the bus system just as fast as your subway. All those express buses lines that cut out the middle stops and would have gotten you to work in less than 40 minutes (how much of that 40 minutes is waiting at stations or changing trains?).

6/19/2010 9:54:45 AM

^ I seriously doubt that considering she lives in Korea. It's the same in Japan, there's no place to put new roads and even if there were new roads the drivers here are so god awful it'd still be faster to take the train.

6/19/2010 10:41:46 AM

^^ yeah, you should read ^

She's right. Come take a look (or if I get around to it, I'll take photos the next time I'm out)

There are roads everywhere, and cars everywhere, and the subway is still your best bet. Public transit was probably all there was for a while, then when the average income rose, and car companies started growing, cars appeared everywhere. I often drive around and wonder "where the hell do all these cars park? Surely, the city must survive because inevitably, all the cars don't have to be parked at the same time."

In fact, parking is so bad that the outermost lane of nearly every road/street here is a de facto free parking lot. It's getting more enforcement now, with cameras at certain busy areas.

But yeah, it's pretty much like Japan. Road everywhere. And packed. For the most part. There are, of course, better and worse times of the day to be on the road. I was driving tonight and got up to 80 km/h several times (which is what.. 50 mph? geeeeeeeez)


Btw, the 40 minutes is purely riding the subway itself (see in my earlier post about walking to/fro the station, and I don't have to transfer); yes, there is the inevitable time spent stopping at a particular station. That is true.

But I have, on many an occasion, driven that same stretch of road (it's a large 8-lane road which cuts through the middle of our city) and it takes me way more than 40 minutes. even in good speed. (well, unless it's later than 1 a.m. kkkkkk)

(it's the road going from left to right in the photo)
[btw that's a "slow" time of day", probably mid-afternoon but don't cite me on it]


[Edited on June 19, 2010 at 11:54 AM. Reason : it was 10 p.m.++ and that road is 70 kmh posted. ]

[Edited on June 19, 2010 at 11:59 AM. Reason : pikxsterhers]

[Edited on June 19, 2010 at 12:00 PM. Reason : sunlight]

6/19/2010 11:53:41 AM

I agree, personal cars are a poor basis for commuting. That is why I am against rail, since it bankrupts mass transit budgets, causes bus service to be cut, and puts more drivers on the road.

6/19/2010 7:21:24 PM

^^ I was in Seoul 2 months ago for work and it took us 3 hours to get from the airport to the hotel by car. The only time that traffic was light was at 6AM on a Saturday.

The subway is pretty wild though.

6/19/2010 7:29:23 PM

When I think of the ideal mass transit system, I think of Hong Kong with its extensive use of privatized bus service (five competing companies) and unregulated minibus service which collectively carry the vast majority of daily commutes. Rail is used extensively, but primarily to carry long haul transport such as intercity or between islands (such as to the airport). And due to the efficiency and low cost of the mass transit system, only 10% of daily commutes are by car.

But I have never been to Hong Kong to actually see it in operation for myself. Has anyone here ridden on it?

Here in the west, we invariably wreck our mass transit systems, then wonder why everyone insists on driving. Without fail, the bus system is operated as a government monopoly, minibus service is illegal, and everything else is unionized and heavily regulated. In effect, killing off the only forms of mass transit that actually work given the technology of today.

6/19/2010 10:27:15 PM

Is minibus service really illegal?

Filipinos seem to be doing well with their jeepneys.

6/19/2010 10:38:43 PM

^^ Just because the bus is private doesn't mean it will magically run efficiently. Where I live now the buses are run by a private company and they suck balls. The buses hardly ever run. I swear I think they do it on purpose since the bus company also runs taxis as well. Why run the bus at hours people want to ride it when you can just force them into more expensive taxis?

6/19/2010 10:44:08 PM

^^ Minibus services do operate in many U.S. cities, but almost always in the grey economy: they are technically illegal, but the police and courts leave them alone. The minibus service of New York was recently in the news. It was illegal, but sprung up as the government monopoly bus system frequently went on strike, leaving commuters stranded and unwilling to risk their daily commute. For a long time, the political establishment looked the other way. But as time went on, the minibus system grew to serve more and more areas, since the minibuses operating without public subsidy still charged less and offered more frequent service than the government system. Well, the public transit workers union threw a fit, so the government granted the minibuses legality in exchange for a promise not to compete with the government bus system.

^ You are quite right. You can't just call something privatized and expect it to work. This complex concept is maybe why no U.S. city has been able to manage what most other industrialized countries have. You need to grant the companies the freedom to compete, which means eliminating the transit unions, and you need to arrange the incentives around competition. For minibuses, it is easy, just regulate them for safety (seat belts, drivers license, etc), mark curb spaces for loading and unloading, and set them free, the customers and businesses will do the rest (design and mark routes, set fares, etc). Buses are far harder, as Britain discovered in its first attempt to privatize its bus system (the second try succeeded beyond any expectations).

That said, government monopolies don't automatically suck. It is usually only after combining a government monopoly with a public employees union that all rationality goes out the door.

[Edited on June 19, 2010 at 11:46 PM. Reason : ,.,]

6/19/2010 11:38:09 PM

Quote :

"which means eliminating the transit unions"

I don't think the unions have much to do with it. There's no transit unions here but the system is still shit.

Personally I'd like to see Raleigh with a monorail. I love the monorail in Naha whenever I visit.

6/19/2010 11:46:45 PM

Has anyone been to Morgantown, WV? They have a rail taxi people mover type system there that is pretty kick ass.

6/20/2010 10:47:48 PM

duke has the same thing as wv

6/20/2010 11:22:37 PM

Quote :

"Without fail, the bus system is operated as a government monopoly, minibus service is illegal, and everything else is unionized and heavily regulated."

In Lima, Peru, the minibuses were unregulated and privately owned, mostly by the people who drove them, and they still all managed to go on strike while I was there.

I have no idea how. From what I could gather they were striking to punish themselves for not paying themselves enough.

6/20/2010 11:51:04 PM

^^[no]

6/21/2010 7:47:23 AM

I've been to Hong Kong, and my experience of transportation there was superb.
I rode the subway (its so fascinating to hear the British accent), took a cab (also convenient and easy to do), and even bought a ticket on a double-decker bus to go to the top of Victoria Peak.

buying the bus ticket was perhaps the most confusing part (I forget what it was that tripped us up, but probably because we were buying it at the starting station, and/or something related to that).

I'm so used to buses in Korea, where you either put in bills/coins and get change (bus driver has to press the buttons to give you change) or scan a card. In Hong Kong we used cash since we weren't there long enough to bother buying a transportation card. Of course, we weren't helped by not knowing exactly what part of town it was we were going to in relation to what parts of town were listed on the bus. In Korea, buses usually list 5-7 or so of their "major" destinations on the side of the bus so you can get a general idea of whether the bus is going where you want to go.

Anyway, from what I could tell, the Hong Kong transportation was fast, clean, and appeared efficient. I couldn't tell you how many private cars I noted on the road.

I just recall that the taxi was much less noisy than the typical South Korean counterpart, which usually blasts trot music (UGH)
(i.e. something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJz2pJDd4kw
or this: http://vodpod.com/watch/2816771-korean-trot-unconditional-
or the slow stuff)

[Edited on June 21, 2010 at 11:05 AM. Reason : buses in Korea are great... if you're good at keeping your balance ]

[Edited on June 21, 2010 at 11:06 AM. Reason : I think we used cash to buy a ticket, though... (in HK)]

6/21/2010 11:03:02 AM

hahaha I don't remember that about the taxis in Seoul but maybe I wasn't paying attention.

6/21/2010 11:04:29 AM

^ well they may do it less than they do down here in Daegu..

self-proclaimed confucian capital of Korea (i.e. most conservative city)

They love their trot. and things like pumping the gas pedal, silly LEDs on everything, etc.


bonus: i was recently able to use my transportation card to pay for my taxi fare (most taxis don't have the scanning pad necessary to do that). r0x0r!

If you see the square outlined in orange in the upper right area of the photo, that's the pad which lets you scan your transit card


[Edited on June 21, 2010 at 11:12 AM. Reason : Flickr]

6/21/2010 11:09:23 AM

Quote :

"^^[no]"

pretty sure i've been on both. you might want to go out there and check up on facts before running your mouth.

6/22/2010 8:44:02 PM

"duke has had the same thing as wv"

fixed it for ya, brainiac

6/22/2010 8:48:19 PM

^^

A. The duke monorail thing consisted of a total of 3 cars. The one in Morgantown consists of over 70 cars.

B. The one at duke in no longer in operation.

C. I know you are just a trollias and all, but perhaps you should do some research before running YOUR mouth.

[Edited on June 22, 2010 at 8:57 PM. Reason : ]

6/22/2010 8:53:06 PM

Stop nitpicking. I haven't been there in a few years but the point still stands that it was the same thing. That doesn't require it being as widespread.

6/23/2010 2:33:50 AM

Is there anywhere on the site that shows the planned locations for the rail stops?

The PDF I thought it might be in comes back 404.

6/23/2010 9:14:56 AM

lol this one article about HSR has a big argument going on about the # of stops in the triangle, we are only gonna get 1, probably near the airport between durham and raleigh nearish to RTP. A light rail line from Chapel Hill <-> Durham <-> RTP <-> airport/HSR <-> Cary <-> Raleigh is about the only bit of light rail that makes any sense in anything resembling the short term (25 years). Atlanta will only get 1, DC/Alexandria will get 1, Charlotte will get 1. though we need proper HSR, 150mph+ to really make it viable, I'd pay $50 to get to Atlanta in 2-3 hours in relative comfort and internet. Shit I'd pay more probably.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/27/north-carolinas-triangle-questions-how-best-to-connect-a-multipolar-region/
http://www.gotriangle.org/images/uploads/Triangle_Regional_Transit_Map_v_final_5_09.pdf


[Edited on June 23, 2010 at 1:28 PM. Reason : links for you]

6/23/2010 1:22:52 PM

Quote :

"I'd pay $50 to get to Atlanta NYC in 2-3 hours in relative comfort and internet. Shit I'd pay more probably."

6/23/2010 1:52:49 PM

that too

6/24/2010 1:25:09 PM

looking at the maps posted above makes me really skeptical that any of this would work. does anyone know of any reasonably close area that I could use to compare densities? probably san francisco?

[Edited on June 24, 2010 at 1:52 PM. Reason : .]

6/24/2010 1:52:16 PM

WTF, I like how they divert around my house from RDU to the Fairgrounds by going through Cary instead of coming near my house. BOOOO. What the hell do people that live between glenwood and falls of neuse do?

I'd have to park at crabtree and take the bus, F-that

6/24/2010 2:01:59 PM

Given that "proposal" if I lived really close to downtown (currently only 3 miles) I could get on the train there and take it out to the airport exit since I work off Airport Blvd. But what would I do then? The airport train stop is probably 1 1/2 miles from my office.

[Edited on June 24, 2010 at 2:49 PM. Reason : would the trains be bicycle friendly? That could work.]

6/24/2010 2:48:05 PM

Quote :

"would the trains be bicycle friendly? That could work."

Yeah I:m hoping they will be similar to the BART in that respect.

6/24/2010 9:42:12 PM

While the theory sounds good, one has to wonder. As spread out as Raleigh and RTP is how efficient is this proposed light rail going to be??

On the map it looks like their is one stop for RTP. While skipping the I40 clusterfuck would be a plus, I do not think any rational engineer at IBM or Cisco is going to ditch their car to ride the train, then have to wait 10-20 mins for a bus to get them to their work building.

6/25/2010 12:16:39 PM

Quote :

"I do not think any rational engineer at IBM or Cisco is going to ditch their car to ride the train, then have to wait 10-20 mins for a bus to get them to their work building."

i think you might be surprised...even if it doesn't save time, there is a great deal of draw in having someone else transport you to and from work during rush hour

that said, i don't know that this particular design will work, but if it did, i think people would handle SOME "inconvenience" to avoid driving

6/25/2010 1:32:32 PM

^yeah if it wasn't unreasonably expensive I would. I hate seeing my car's value diminish from all the commuting miles, not to mention the afternoon bumper to bumper traffic on I-40 drives me crazy.

6/25/2010 2:26:59 PM

^^ I agree completely. And a well planned and built bus system can transport you more places with a more convenient schedule at a fraction of the cost.

We could start by creating a legal framework for free-range minibus service in the Raleigh area.

6/25/2010 2:48:25 PM

well, within RTP it would be beneficial for companies to pay for a bus service to make a stop at their place...like, there would be a bus that stops at the big campuses and also at the light rail station, and it just loops throughout the day

6/25/2010 2:51:22 PM

monorail is the way to go. cheaper to install and doesn't screw up traffic like the queen city's fancy new train system.

6/26/2010 10:55:04 AM