As far as I'm concerned Russell is the greatest of all time in the pros.

2/15/2006 1:11:43 PM

@packboozie YOU ARE A STUPID LITTLE SHIT

2/15/2006 1:16:17 PM

Quote :

"I agree with ihatespida, if the NBA is so good now, how can our "Dream Team" lose 4 games with the ALMIGHTY Larry Brown coaching? "

b/c Larry Brown didnt know how to fucking coach an uptempo game. He also benched, as others have said, the 3 guys who were playing the best. But b/c they are young guys and he refuses to play young guys, he fucked the team's chances.

2/15/2006 1:17:18 PM

i never heard anyone call them the dream team either

2/15/2006 1:18:33 PM

11 MOTHER FUCKING CHAMPIONSHIP TITLES (with many in the Chamberlin era) SPEAK FOR ITSELF.

RUSSELL = THE GREATEST EVER.

JORDAN = a very close second.


P.S. I'm not equating championships to greatness, so dont even throw that Robert Horry argument out there. Russell DOMINATED in every facet of the game. If blocks were kept as a stat back then (they started in the late 70's-early 80's), Hakeem would probably only have about half of his total.

2/15/2006 1:19:15 PM

Russell
Jordan
Walton
Chamberlain
Johnson
Bird
O'Neal
Barkley
Irving
Jabbar

Not exactly in that order, but there are my top ten ALL TIME

Quote :

"it is ridiculous for any of you to think that KOBE BRYANT isnt the best player right now."

I didn't say he wasn't the best player right now, and I didn't say he was. The thread says "TOP TEN OF ALL TIME".

[/thread]

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 1:23 PM. Reason : spelling error....]

2/15/2006 1:20:56 PM

Bill Russell was great, no one has argued otherwise. but please, let's be adults, the Celtics were the best team and it wasn't b/c of any ONE player. Russell, Havlicek, Cousy, etc... makes it pretty easy to win when other teams were only alloted one relevant player.

2/15/2006 1:21:15 PM

Quote :

"Russell Jordan Walton Chamberlain Johnson Byrd O'Neal Barkley Irving Jabbar"

you are retarded, who the fuck is Byrd?

2/15/2006 1:21:57 PM

^not retarded, just can't spell. Temporary lapse in typing skills.

2/15/2006 1:23:34 PM

no....you ARE retarded.

2/15/2006 1:24:30 PM

^how you figure. I was typing when you posted above, didn't see your post, and we still came up with the same two players at or near the top of our list....

hmmmm.....

2/15/2006 1:26:06 PM

ur retarded b/c u have dr. J (who i am a HUGE fan of) and CB (who i am an even bigger fan of) on that list. bill walton?? r u kidding me w/ that shit. thats a weak fuckin list. how can you possibly leave the big-O off a top ten all time list? and elgin baylor is still not on anyone elses list, which is blowing my mind.

2/15/2006 1:29:17 PM

^What do you want??? I'm not a sportswriter, I'm not a broadcaster, I'm not a basketball insider. I'm just a regular fan of the game. IMHO, those are my top ten. I clearly stated that they were MY top ten. Not THE TOP TEN to end all top tens....

I'm not retarded. Maybe a little ill-informed and misguided, but not retarded. Let's see you guys post your top ten. You haven't yet and you continually criticize others selections.... Let's see them, oh holier-than-thou sports oracles.

2/15/2006 1:35:49 PM

fair enough, u are entitled to your opinion, albeit uninformed. you can check page 1 for mine.


i just read that comment someone made about russell dominating all aspects of game. haha, that has to be a joke right? u cant really say he dominated on the offensive end.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 1:41 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 1:38:05 PM

Here's my list, in no particular order:

Jordan
Russell
Robertson
Alcindor (fuck his name change)
Bird
Magic
West
Shaq
Wilt
Erving

2/15/2006 1:45:43 PM

NO one has pointed out the fact that it is Julius Erving not Julius Irving

2/15/2006 1:47:57 PM

Dammit100 has a pretty good list

I have no objections to that at all

2/15/2006 1:49:01 PM

it is neither of the above

it is dr. j

Quote :

"Alcindor (fuck his name change)"

i bet you think the best boxer is cassius clay

2/15/2006 1:49:39 PM

damn right i do. it's Chris Jackson, not Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf; Brian Williams, not Bison Dele....

2/15/2006 1:52:53 PM

i would love for you to go up to any of them and call them that name repeatedly



or maybe you could try respecting someone's wishes

2/15/2006 1:54:06 PM

I'll whoop "Bison Dele's" ass.

2/15/2006 1:54:30 PM

hahaha, who the fuck would chance their name to bison? can someone give me some reasons why they would have dr. j over elgin baylor b/c im just not seein it, and i am a dr. j fan.

2/15/2006 1:59:42 PM

after doing some more reading here, I'll retract my list and put Baylor in Erving's place

2/15/2006 2:05:03 PM

finally, someone else acknowledges elgin baylor, it only took 3 pages.

2/15/2006 2:09:27 PM

Alright, for the people who don't understand the nuances of how the game has changed over the last couple of decades..

1. The defense is better.

It's true, really. The teams of the 80's did not play inspired defense. You couldn't even get your defense set when the other team was shooting 10 seconds into the shot clock. The scores that the games would reach back then is certainly proof enough. Defensive focus back then was on playing good team defense. Protect the interior. They weren't even very good at that. So the teams of the 80's were probably more adept to double-teaming at will when a certain player got the ball. They were also slow at rotating their defense, and it always led to a lot of easy buckets.

The players today have been forced to play better individual defense because of the greater certainty of one on one matchups. A team that doesn't double-team doesn't mean they can't play defense. Now if you can get a group of players that play great individual defense, and then you incorporate team defense into the game, then you can see the teams that stand out above the rest (Spurs, Detroit).

Some teams aren't very good defensively like the Suns, Mavs, Sonics. I like to compare them to the teams of the 80's because they would simply try to score to win. Aside from the Sonics, the other two have improved on the defensive end, which alludes as to why their records are so good right now.

I would even dare say that the offense got worse because the defense got better. There are some players that have near-unlimited offensive ability, but most players can't shoot because they either are playing better defense, or they weren't instilled with the fundamentals of shooting. Nowadays, the jumpshot has disappeared, and it's mainly because the defense insures that you're either going to have to shoot a long range shot, or you're going to have to shoot from close up to give yourself the best opportunity to score.

2. The players are better.

This is almost true for every sport. As time passes on, the athletes only get better. I bet Babe Ruth couldn't hit a splitter, Jack couldn't take Tiger (on today's courses mind you...they've stretched a good hundred yards since Jack's time), Red Grange wouldn't run through the Panthers. The athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger.

Bob Cousy couldn't play well in today's NBA. George Mikan could probably get out-balled by Greg Ostertag. Even Wilt would have a time when he's going up against front lines with an average height of 6'9. There are very few athletes that can transcend time and be just as effective in today's game as they were in the past.

People love to give homage to the players that made the game into what it is today. They were great in their era, but each passing era leads to better players overall. It's like growing up and dominating in middle school, then going to high school and coming to the realization that everybody has gotten better and you're not as dominating as you were.

2/15/2006 2:14:00 PM

^ good work

2/15/2006 2:19:02 PM

The man's got more rings than fingers.

Most everyone mentioned here has great talent but what can you use to seperate the great from the greatest of all time.......championships.

2/15/2006 2:32:22 PM

lets just post in a thread w/out reading any other posts in that thread that might have already addressed what i am about to post about 10x over.


and lets just say it over and over and over and over again

b/c if you say the same thing enough times

eventually people will believe you

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 2:34 PM. Reason : a]

2/15/2006 2:34:12 PM

Quote :

"Most everyone mentioned here has great talent but what can you use to seperate the great from the greatest of all time.......championships."

good call, Trent Dilfer IS a better quarterback than Dan Marino.

2/15/2006 2:35:32 PM

while his argument is weak

that type of argument is stupid too

2/15/2006 2:37:28 PM

You tard.

I said of the posted list of ten how do you seperate them.

I wasn't arguing that Nocioni could be better than Bill Russell if the Bulls suddenly won 15 championships in a row.

Idiot.

2/15/2006 2:39:58 PM

yea but all things arent equal. there are things called statistics that can be used to measure perfomance. rings help, and yes, if all things were equal they could be used to decide who's better, but things arent equal. russell had a ton of help to get him those rings, he had a marginal offensive game at best.

2/15/2006 3:04:57 PM

i dont know much about the defense in the 80's compared to now but i do know the nba players dont play very hard on defense now. if you watch a game people get broken down b/c of bad technique and not hustling. Somebody will drive down the lane and nobody will rotate over. my point is they definitely dont play up to their defensive potential.

2/15/2006 4:08:58 PM

For superdude...1. Defense read what I said earlier
2. The "Golden Age of Basketball" is considered the late 80s and early 90s. I would match any good team then and good team now. The league is saturated with to many teams, that’s why you have 3 teams that are going to win 60 games this season....now how many times has that happened? With that, how many teams have a shot at winning 50? I love the Bulls, but their season of 72 wins also happened the year the league expanded....think about it
That’s....it....I’m done with this thread

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 6:08 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 6:07:32 PM

^ So you're saying that the D isn't as good because NBA players are allowed to play zone? Last time I heard, most teams still play man to man. A couple teams play more zone than man to man. Regardless of what defense is played, it's chosen because it's the most effective defense that a team can play.

You make it seem like zone defense is some sort of copout for good defensive play. It only gives teams another weapon to use on defense. Good zone defense emphasizes great team defense more than anything else. If a person gets beat on D, it's because they know another man will be there to cover for him. Plus, if a team used a zone like Temple's matchup zone, people wouldn't be calling zone defense a joke.

The defense of the 80's isn't the same as it is now. It has nothing to do with the way players play D, but it has everything to do with the way the referees call fouls. You can't get away with hand checks or impede the player with the ball like you used to. The game forces you to be even more savvy in order to create turnovers and play great defense. I guess you can consider the zone a gift from the NBA because of the way the rules are implemented nowadays.

I think that Jordan was fortunate to play where a whole bunch of icons retired, and before the next era of players emerged. I don't think he would've gotten as many titles that he had if he had been in that same 79' class with Magic. If he had played at his prime with Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, LeBron, etc...I think he wouldn't have looked so extraordinary. He is greatness in his own right, but I think that a lot of it has to do with timing more than anything else. And he did play with the next generation when he was with the Wizards. Not much of a star player then, if you ask me.

2/16/2006 12:26:30 AM

Quote :

"And he did play with the next generation when he was with the Wizards. Not much of a star player then, if you ask me."

He was not that much of a star when he was scoring 20+ ppg at the age of 40?

You are gonna compare MJ at 39-40 to guys like KG, Shaq, Duncan? WTF?

He dominated Shaq, Hakeem and Malone, all of whom were in their primes while Jordan was playing. He outplayed Bird and Magic when they were still great players. Thats 5 of the top 15 players all time, btw.

2/16/2006 12:38:19 AM

Shaq was not in his prime when Jordan was around. Shaq in his prime was circa 99-2000.

Scoring 20+ ppg at 40? When he was option 1 on the Wiz? Nope, not very impressive. It's even easier to pad your stats when you play on bad teams (Kobe, Bosh, Pierce, etc...)

And I wasn't trying to compare MJ at 39-40 to KG, Shaq, and Duncan, etc... It was obvious that he wasn't the dominating force he was at that age. I'm saying that if he was younger, I doubt that he'd be much better.

It's not fair to say that he dominated Shaq, Hakeem and Malone because they don't play the same position. He more or less was dominant when there wasn't another dominant swingman. He didn't even outplay Bird and Magic. They were both on their way out when Jordan won his first championship. And even then, the Lakers of 91 were nothing like the Lakers of 89.

2/16/2006 1:05:55 AM

Quote :

"@packboozie YOU ARE A STUPID LITTLE SHIT"

Haha you are the loser in this thread pal. Seems like everyone else is making their top 10 lists without Kobe in it. I guarantee you I know more about basketball than you do. Most are just in agreement that RIGHT NOW, Kobe is not top 10. Doesn't mean he won't be when he is through, but now there is no way that he is.

2/16/2006 2:18:04 AM

^^^ When did he dominate Shaq and Hakeem?

I must have missed those series.


He was 0-1 vs Shaq and never played Hakeem in the playoffs.


Yeah he did show up Malone, but Malone is a goat....


If Michael Jordan scored 81 points in a game it would be considered the best game in NBA history, but when Kobe scores 81 its laughable.


Jordan couldnt outshoot Kobe if his life depended on it.

[Edited on February 16, 2006 at 2:19 AM. Reason : a]

2/16/2006 2:19:10 AM

I can not talk to you morons any more........

2/16/2006 7:14:55 AM

this is still being debated? I thought it had been well established that Kobe wasn't in the top ten of all time?

2/16/2006 8:37:59 AM

Quote :

"Jordan couldnt outshoot Kobe if his life depended on it."

Even though you try to pick the one category where Kobe might be comparable to Jordan, you're still wrong.

Jordan's fg% was a LOT higher than Kobe's. His career FT% and 3pt% are almost identical to Kobe's.

Jordan's career stats speak for themselves. He averaged more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks while commiting fewer turnovers and fouls and shooting a higher ft% and a much higher fg%. The only statistical category that Kobe leads in is 3pt %, and just barely.

2/16/2006 9:54:11 AM

1)Tommy Burleson

kthx

2/16/2006 10:22:36 AM

Quote :

"He was 0-1 vs Shaq and never played Hakeem in the playoffs."

Dammit Rallydurham, i was with you until then.

Quote :

"East Conf Finals Gm Date Tm Opp W/L Score Series +--+----------+---+----+---+-------+-------------+ 1 1996-05-19 CHI ORL W 121-83 CHI leads 1-0 2 1996-05-21 CHI ORL W 93-88 CHI leads 2-0 3 1996-05-25 CHI @ORL W 86-67 CHI leads 3-0 4 1996-05-27 CHI @ORL W 106-101 CHI wins 4-0"

Jordan lost to the Magic in 1995, his comeback year, but them followed up with a sweep of the Magic in the 1996 playoff run, marked by a HUGE block by jordan on shaq.

small, but significant error on your part.

2/16/2006 10:33:16 AM

Why is this a three page thread? When it's all said and done Kobe will CERTAINLY, in my mind, be one of the 10 greatest players in NBA history. I can't justify putting him in my Top 10 now, simply because if he quit today he doesn't have the longevity to be considered one of the Top 10 (just my opinion). He is without a doubt the best player and biggest difference maker in the NBA today though..

Quote :

"Earl "The Goat" Manigault"

I met him before he passed away. Went to see a Rucker tournament he hosted when I was younger. He was a really cool guy. Obviously changed from the days where he fucked up his life..

[Edited on February 16, 2006 at 10:40 AM. Reason : f]

2/16/2006 10:40:24 AM

Alright fine... He was 1-1 vs Shaq in the playoffs.

That's hardly domination.


NYM pretty much summed it up. If you are basing it off career accomplishments, he isnt top ten yet... thats obvious. He's only played half of his career.

If you are basing it on pure talent, then its obvious that he is top ten all time.

If you are basing it on projected accomplishments, you'd be foolish to doubt Kobe.


I know you hate the guy, but honestly I think he's turned the corner a good bit and his ego has come down some.

It's not like he cheated his way to the top like McGwire & Sosa, killed anyone, assaulted a fan, etc.

What has he done wrong besides be a little bit of a prima donna?

He needed to learn the hard way that he can't win by himself. Jordan had the benefit of learning that early in his career. Kobe didn't have that luxury...

Now he's learned he needs some help, and I doubt he'll chase off good teammates anymore. In the meantime, he is flat out dominating the NBA.

2/16/2006 3:27:22 PM

I just wanted to reiterate what I said earlier
“The "Golden Age of Basketball" is considered the late 80s and early 90s. I would match any good team then and good team now. The league is saturated with to many teams, that’s why you have 3 teams that are going to win 60 games this season....now how many times has that happened? With that, how many teams have a shot at winning 50? I love the Bulls, but their season of 72 wins also happened the year the league expanded....think about it”
Look at the records…..there are 3 teams without a doubt that will win 60 something games….4 possibly, those three teams have only lost 10,11, and 12 games respectively….have a shot at 70……….how many times has this happened…better teams? NBA is better now…….why is this so? Saturated league…….that is the comparison now…so it begs the question 81 points against a team that is not elite in the saturated league of today vs. 69 vs. a championship team…….that is the point. Better players? Versus? I would love some of these match-ups with all of the “talent” today.

3/3/2006 10:55:49 PM

Quote :

"I just wanted to reiterate what I said earlier"

Next time do it with some semblance of decent punctuation and someone might actually read it.

3/3/2006 11:22:11 PM

Let’s all make sure we spell correctly....on a Friday night....people might drink and come back from a bar...and I will be damned....spelling and grammar is much more important than the fucking point, because this is 111........

3/3/2006 11:29:31 PM

Quote :

" Jordan couldnt outshoot Kobe if his life depended on it. "

you are so damn wrong, i rmemeber readin about him playin in practice against pippen, pip talked some shit, and jordan shut him down, completely, didnt hit another shot, and destroyed him, Kobe has a competitive instinct, but its nothing like jordans

even if it was just a shooting competition

dont get me wrong, kobe deserves to be mentioned int he top 15 players all time, he is the best in the league right now

[Edited on March 3, 2006 at 11:53 PM. Reason : clarificyting?]

3/3/2006 11:50:03 PM