Seriously, this problem is 100% gone after one generation.

6/7/2006 2:46:57 PM

then why do they need everything in spanish if the problem is gone after one generation?

and Bridget if you want to debate, why dont you go back to page 1 and tell me whats up for debate about the whole "illegal workers not paying taxes thing"

6/7/2006 3:21:56 PM

Spookyjon,

Thank you sir for catching my mistakes in blog. And honestly, I won't lie. I let out a laugh or two myself.

However, I would like to at least add that I do think 20 instances is correct.

I agree with whoever made the notion that they don't see how someone has the time to update their blog. Typically, I am writing/typing rather quickly and don't have the time to proof read my posts. Thanks for doing it for me though and I'll work on fixing those errors when I have the time.

Granted, at least you can read the blog post and understand the rules of the language enough to grasp what is being said. Imagine if every founding government document of the country you lived in was in a language you didn't know. I think you'd have a hard time reading the documents, let alone understand the message.

I wouldn't want my bill of rights translated. I also doubt, while being arrested, I would be pleased to know that what they said in a language I couldn't understand could have implications into my trial.

Thank you TreeTwista10 for taking up for me.

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 3:48 PM. Reason : appreciation]

6/7/2006 3:40:45 PM

Quote :

"ok how about this..."If you move to Rome, you better learn Italian""

Alright. As long as you're backtracking as fast as you can, then.

Quote :

"but that doesnt change that accomodations being made for latinos, the accomodations that those other ethnic groups did not get"

There was less need for accomodation back then, because so many immigrants moved directly into ethnic enclaves where they would widely be understood, and because interaction with the government was so much more limited. You don't have to print a Social Security form in Italian if Social Security won't exist for another thirty years.

Quote :

"whereas conversely you have some people that dont take any steps to become a citizen...they dont learn English because there are places they can get by without it...they dont pay taxes (deductive reasoning if they are not citizens, they are not on record, etc)"

WELL, GEE, WHY IS ALL OF THIS?

Oh, that's right, because if they don't jump through all your hoops to be called "legal" (which the law prohibits most of them from doing, just because of their country of origin), you won't let them take steps to become citizens, you won't let them enter the mainstream workforce, and you deport them when they try to do things like pay taxes.

Quote :

"If you've ever worked in retail then you understand the trouble and division that exists because of english not being an official language."

I worked in retail for quite a while. Admittedly, I speak Spanish proficiently, but despite the large number of Hispanic customers we had, I only had cause to speak Spanish on two occasions. You know why? THEY SPOKE FUCKING ENGLISH!! Out of any given group there was always someone to handle the translation business.

In other words, I can say conclusively that your statement is complete and utter mierda.

Quote :

"They are one of the major reasons that education costs have risen so much in the past 20 years."

Prove this.

6/7/2006 3:48:14 PM

us government documents should be bilingual

lawyer and plain english

6/7/2006 4:02:50 PM

I'm still looking for a percentage of the increase in ESL classes compared to total education spending.

However, in the 2007 budget for education. http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget07/summary/edlite-section1.html

$669 million dollars is being spent for these programs.

That puts it 2nd in cost to reforming high schools.

It's common sense if you think about it. As the number of ESL students rise then the number of specialist teachers must rise also. Since the specialist ESL certified teachers are not only scarce but also specialized; they have to be paid more.

6/7/2006 4:38:02 PM

Quote :

"because if they don't jump through all your hoops to be called "legal""

yeah well we have a system of laws at work...maybe you would prefer to have no laws and be overrun by illegals

but you're the same guy who says I'm backtracking for clarifying my "When in Rome" statement...its not my fault that you didnt understand it the first dozen times you read it...its pretty simple to understand

and you're also the same guy who "demands that you be provided a translator" when in a foreign country because you have some kind of damn egotistical sense of entitlement to everything

and then when I said i knew some immigrants who didnt want to learn english beacuse they think its too hard and they would rather just work under the table for money, you said that was the fault of people like me who make working under the table preferable to working over it? you claim that its the fault of people like ME who make working under the table preferable? You seem to want immigrants to be able to become citizens with the greatest of ease, yet you don't think they should have to learn English to become citizens? You are bass ackwards

6/7/2006 4:40:08 PM

^^So before you lamented the fact that they refused to learn English, and now you're lamenting the fact that they are getting an education that includes learning English. I'm confused.

I'd like to know what you propose instead, Biggie. Not allow school-aged children to go to school until they have learned English?

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 4:42 PM. Reason : sss]

6/7/2006 4:42:24 PM

i think what a lot of the people against making english the official language dont realize is that none of the pro-people are saying that you should never be able to speak in your native language, or anything that drastic

we are just saying they should learn english so our govt doesnt have to provide translators and documentation of every sort in multiple languages...whats next, are all the traffic and road signs going to be bilingual? if a hispanic runs a stop sign and gets into a big accident because he doesnt know what the word 'stop' means in spanish, would you be for punishing the man, or blaming people like me and using more tax money to put up bilingual stop signs?

6/7/2006 4:45:56 PM

Quote :

"we are just saying they should learn english so our govt doesnt have to provide translators and documentation of every sort in multiple languages...whats next, are all the traffic and road signs going to be bilingual? if a hispanic runs a stop sign and gets into a big accident because he doesnt know what the word 'stop' means in spanish, would you be for punishing the man, or blaming people like me and using more tax money to put up bilingual stop signs?"

Street signs are actually designed to be universal so that you don't even need to read it to know what it means. Didn't you ever wonder why all stop signs are big red octagons? You don't see a white rectangle with cursive writing that says "STOP" for a reason.

6/7/2006 4:50:36 PM

i realize that although stop signs are not "international signs" like airports which are the same in all developed countries...but the point i'm making is if we don't make english the official language, and more and more things become available in both english and spanish, when is it going to stop?

6/7/2006 5:14:31 PM

Bridget,

I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching American's english in school. Sure right now there are plenty that struggle with english. However, most of these non-english speaking citizens are immigrants. Whether they are illegal or not there is nothing requiring them to learn the language. The more our government caters to the non-english speaking the more increases in spending similar to education will occur and the more devisive our society will become.

If english was the national language then immigrants to become citizens would have to show they understand the language. Is that really such a bad thing compared to the benefit of being an American citizen?

That would cut down on the cost of education and possibly use this money in areas to improve actual reading and math scores. It would also cut costs in other areas too. Not to mention cut out a conflict in our society.

6/7/2006 5:25:25 PM

Quote :

"yeah well we have a system of laws at work...maybe you would prefer to have no laws and be overrun by illegals "

The current immigration laws are unjust and doomed towards failure. There is no wrong in violating them. If you think we should obey unjust laws, then you must also think that Martin Luther King was a pretty big asshole.

Quote :

"its not my fault that you didnt understand it the first dozen times you read it"

I'm just reading English. "When in Rome" can mean anything from "when visiting Rome" to "when living there permanently." You're the one who all the sudden decided that "in" implies "living," which goes a long way towards proving my point.

Quote :

"and you're also the same guy who "demands that you be provided a translator" when in a foreign country"

You already said you would do the same, because going through customs is different, right? I only said I demanded a translator when conducting official business with the government. That's been pretty standard for a looong time now: if you get arrested in another country, they get someone to explain to you what's up in your own language.

Just admit it, man, you would demand a translator in exactly the same circumstances as I would. Admit that you didn't understand what was going on through that whole conversation so we can move on.

Quote :

"you said that was the fault of people like me who make working under the table preferable to working over it? you claim that its the fault of people like ME who make working under the table preferable?"

That's exactly what I said. If you did not make it illegal for them to get legitimate work, they would not work under the table. They would enter the normal labor market and not the "unofficial" one. They would thus be much more encouraged by economic factors to learn English on their own, because they would be vying for much the same jobs as everyone else. You are the one that makes that impossible by making immigrants illegal.

Quote :

"whats next, are all the traffic and road signs going to be bilingual?"

In order to get a driver's license, you have to demonstrate that you know what the signs mean. Your little hypothetical situation about the stop sign is therefore moot. Now, if we have to have someone there who speaks Spanish to administer the DMV test, fine. Because I, for one, would rather spend a little money to get a Spanish speaker working for the DMV than have a bunch of unlicensed, uninsured immigrant drivers making the roads dangerous because you thought it was just too goddamn much to ask that we put that translator in.

Quote :

"we are just saying they should learn english so our govt doesnt have to provide translators and documentation of every sort in multiple languages"

Again, why don't you show us how big of a problem this is? Where are the huge and insurmountable expenses from printing more than one kind of form? How has this really impacted your daily life???

6/7/2006 5:35:31 PM

Quote :

"The current immigration laws are unjust and doomed towards failure. There is no wrong in violating them"

when you come out of the gate saying theres no wrong in violating laws...you just keep playing yourself don't you

Quote :

"If you think we should obey unjust laws, then you must also think that Martin Luther King was a pretty big asshole."

i dont think i should be forced to wear seatbelts...but i wear my seatbelt...i guess i think mlk was an asshole

Quote :

"If you did not make it illegal for them to get legitimate work, they would not work under the table."

If they legally became citizens, it would not be illegal for them to get legitimate work

oh an i'm sure there are no American citizens that work under the table...you know, since American citizens can legally get legitimate work, I guess absolutely nobody gets paid under the table right

Quote :

"Because I, for one, would rather spend a little money to get a Spanish speaker working for the DMV than have a bunch of unlicensed, uninsured immigrant drivers making the roads dangerous because you thought it was just too goddamn much to ask that we put that translator in."

I, for one, would hope a Spanish speaking DMV officer is not going to give illegal immigrants a drivers license because they are not citizens...they havent earned the right to get a drivers license or drive on the roads that they dont pay for, if they dont pay taxes, which they dont if they're illegal

Quote :

"Where are the huge and insurmountable expenses from printing more than one kind of form? How has this really impacted your daily life??? "

Where are the huge and insurmountable hardships from telling someone if they want to be an American citizen, they have to speak the native language. Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to illegal immigrants and not natural born citizens?

6/7/2006 5:46:36 PM

jesus

you people whine a lot.

6/7/2006 5:47:58 PM

This thread is about immigrants who don't speak English, not immigrants who don't pay taxes, TreeTwista10, but I'll respond anyway...

The not paying taxes argument is getting kinda lame. They DO pay taxes on the things they buy, and they work for less than minimum wage. They would pay taxes on their income if they could, but they can't...and think about it: considering they work for less than minimum wage, I suspect, even if they were allowed to pay taxes, they would fall into the bracket of people that pay little to no income taxes anyway. So seriously shut the fuck about the taxes.

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 6:54 PM. Reason : sss]

6/7/2006 6:52:48 PM

i am for making English official

6/7/2006 7:09:45 PM

Quote :

"They would pay taxes on their income if they could, but they can't."

what kind of speculative bullshit is that

6/7/2006 7:14:06 PM

^I love the way you ignore the rest of my post, you know, the part where I point out that they wouldn't even qualify to pay much taxes at all anyway.

6/7/2006 7:15:37 PM

Quote :

"when you come out of the gate saying theres no wrong in violating laws"

I didn't say that. I said there was no wrong in violating unjust laws.

Quote :

"i dont think i should be forced to wear seatbelts...but i wear my seatbelt...i guess i think mlk was an asshole"

You wear your seatbelt, but there would be no particular wrong in you refusing to do so. There would be a crime in it, sure, but no wrong.

And I guess that according to you, MLK, Jr., the mayor of San Francisco, John Brown, and many others in history were "playing themselves."

Quote :

"If they legally became citizens, it would not be illegal for them to get legitimate work"

Guess what? The only peeople who has it in their power for them to legally become citizens is us. Because at the moment, it is completely and utter impossible for most Hispanics who want in to get in legally. It isn't that there's just a long line. It's that the rules outright stop them from ever being able to get in.

They would come legally if they could. That they can't is your fault.

Quote :

"oh an i'm sure there are no American citizens that work under the table..."

No doubt they do. But they do so at a much, much lower rate than many immigrants are forced to out of necessity.

Quote :

"I, for one, would hope a Spanish speaking DMV officer is not going to give illegal immigrants a drivers license because they are not citizens..."

and

Quote :

"Why do you give the benefit of the doubt to illegal immigrants and not natural born citizens?"

We're not talking about illegals here, we're talking about people who don't speak English. You're getting your lines of argument confused.

Quote :

"Where are the huge and insurmountable hardships from telling someone if they want to be an American citizen, they have to speak the native language."

I've listed them before. We could see unrest with that move. We would see a reduction of freedom and an unecessarily bigger, more powerful government. We would see increased expense -- ESL programs aren't cheap as it is, now imagine how much worse they'll become when they don't just deal with kids.

I've answered your question, even though I asked mine first. Now, though, I trust you will answer me.

6/7/2006 7:16:55 PM

Quote :

"the part where I point out that they wouldn't even qualify to pay much taxes at all anyway"

point out != speculate with no basis

Quote :

"I said there was no wrong in violating unjust laws"

aside from the fact that "unjust" is subjective, breaking a law is breaking a law...i guess if i go on a killing spree but i don't think the law that says murder is illegal is a just law, then my killing spree wasnt wrong

Quote :

"it is completely and utter impossible for most Hispanics who want in to get in legally. It isn't that there's just a long line. It's that the rules outright stop them from ever being able to get in. They would come legally if they could. That they can't is your fault. "

my fault? here i thought it was all the illegals that have already come and fucked it up for the ones who wanted to do it legitimately...i guess i'm easier to blame than tens of thousands of illegal immigrants who dont pay taxes on the wages they make in this country...yeah

your problem is you think that illegal immigrants and non-English speakers are completely separate issues...they're in fact very, very interrelated

Quote :

"Where are the huge and insurmountable expenses from printing more than one kind of form? How has this really impacted your daily life???"

You just minimalize the issue...equivocating the problem of illegal immigrants and the de-americanization of our culture to "printing more than one kind of form"...you expect the governments to do everything for you and everyone else, like catering to immigrants who dont speak english, many of them illegal immigrants...you say "how hard is it for you if theres an extra form" instead of asking "how hard is it for people to follow our laws"

6/7/2006 7:33:13 PM

Quote :

"aside from the fact that "unjust" is subjective"

It isn't. Something is either just or it is not, regardless of what you think of it. I don't intend to Dance the Dance of Relativism with you.

Quote :

"here i thought it was all the illegals that have already come and fucked it up for the ones who wanted to do it legitimately..."

And you thought wrong. There are not, were not, never have been any immigrants who want to come in illegally. They all want to come in legitimately. It's easier. It's safer. But they can't do that, because a long time ago, back when there were no real restrictions, a bunch of assholes you like said, "My, there are too many beaners up here, don't you agree?" and then made these bullshit laws. Think about it: The laws had to come around before it was possible to break them. And almost as soon as the laws came up, it was impossible for most Hispanics to ever get in. Because of the laws. Laws that people like you made.

Quote :

"your problem is you think that illegal immigrants and non-English speakers are completely separate issues...they're in fact very, very interrelated "

Not in any way that's relevant to the discussion of this thread, which is about making English the national language. There are plenty of legal immigrants that barely speak English.

Quote :

"de-americanization"

Please explain to me how immigration and its effects are destroying a culture built exclusively upon immigration and its effects. I want to hear it.

Quote :

"You just minimalize the issue"

Well, then, please enlighten us as to the truth. Show us all the horrible problems. You have yet to really name any specific problems that not having a national language is causing. When the question is posed directly to you, you either answer with another question or dodge the issue entirely -- as you are doing now. You know what that tells me? You don't have any specific reasons. Now prove me wrong.

Quote :

"you say "how hard is it for you if theres an extra form" instead of asking "how hard is it for people to follow our laws""

Well, since the forms fall entirely within the domain of the national language issue and in no way in the domain of the illegal immigrant issue, and since there is, as yet, no law pertaining to a national language, it would be really, incredibly stupid of me to sak that second question, now wouldn't it?

[Edited on June 7, 2006 at 8:55 PM. Reason : I notice you didn't start trying to make this an "illegals" issue until this very page...]

6/7/2006 8:53:52 PM

I offer another suggestion. Why don't we just conquer the entire planet and make everyone else speak English now? That way, in the future, all the immigrants to the United States will already speak English, and it won't cause a problem.

Quote :

"Comments on whether english should be the official language..."

Sure! I'd love to have Europe's problems on top of our own!!!

6/7/2006 9:15:03 PM

Gamecat,

You got that right man. All comments accepted even if they are from the corn in right field.

6/7/2006 10:00:16 PM

Quote :

"then why do they need everything in spanish if the problem is gone after one generation?"

Because people keep coming to America.

As far as the obeying/disobeying unjust laws topic. I think the correct course of action would be to obey (or humor if you will) the unjust law while working through legal channels to change the law. I realize that this is easier said than done but at least it assures that you are always on the right side of the law.

Quote :

"Because at the moment, it is completely and utter impossible for most Hispanics who want in to get in legally. It isn't that there's just a long line. It's that the rules outright stop them from ever being able to get in."

Yeah, I'm good friends with a family from South America. It took them 10 years of waiting to get an opportunity to come here legally and they were one of the lucky ones.

Quote :

"they havent earned the right to get a drivers license or drive on the roads that they dont pay for, if they dont pay taxes, which they dont if they're illegal"

I thought all the monies needed to maintain the roads came from the tax they incorporate into the price of every gallon of gas. In fact North Carolina has collected so much money in gas tax they feel as though they can employ those funds in other pet projects. Illegals pay for gas... hence they pay for the roads.

[Edited on June 8, 2006 at 7:55 AM. Reason : -]

6/8/2006 7:45:36 AM

Actually, illegal immigrants do pay sales tax and about 55% pay social security tax since they are paid legally (using fake ssns). Some even file income taxes (not like these people would owe any at their income levels, anyway).


The huge legal population of hispanics alone justifies accommodating them. After all, if you don't, they will vote you out of office.

[Edited on June 8, 2006 at 8:29 AM. Reason : fg]

6/8/2006 8:24:31 AM

Quote :

"if they don't pay taxes, which they don't if they're illegal""

^ has a good point. This is a strong reason why Texas has done so much better integrating illegal immigrants than California and North Carolina. In Texas there is no state income tax, only consumption taxes such as sales taxes and gasoline taxes. In this way, everyone in the state is paying their share in taxes, even the mafia.

North Carolina too, the most heavily taxed state in the south east, we have a 7% sales tax. As such, while our illegals are not paying their full share, they are paying about half of it, and so is the mafia.

Not to start a tax dispute, but this is why many economists argue a consumption tax is preferable to an income tax: everyone pays their share, even liars and crooks. This breeds a sense of legitimacy for government. Of course, full disclosure, a sales tax breaks down much above 15% while an income tax falls more continuously, not falling apart until it is close to 70%.

[Edited on June 8, 2006 at 8:43 AM. Reason : .,.]

6/8/2006 8:42:19 AM

^
A very good point.
Permit me another shamless plug for the FAIRTAX. Everyone would pay tax, whether you're here legally or not. Even foreign tourists will be funding the Social Security program for us.



The FairTax book is now available in paperback, with more updated info. You can learn more about this current Consumption Tax bill (HR25) at: http://www.fairtax.org/

6/8/2006 9:31:49 AM

Quote :

"There are not, were not, never have been any immigrants who want to come in illegally. They all want to come in legitimately."

how can i argue with such nonsense

6/8/2006 9:47:39 AM

^ how can you not understand the context of that statement?

oh wait, its you.

6/8/2006 9:53:56 AM

how can you agree with such a definitive blanket statement? are there no outliers?

do you really think there has never been a single, let alone thousands of, immigrant who has escaped over the border with no intentions of declaring himself? i mean jesus how naive can you get?

but you'd prefer to attack my character than focusing on how much of a false statement Grumpy made

6/8/2006 11:16:19 AM

i didn't "agree"...there you go again

Quote :

"but you'd prefer to attack my character than focusing on how much of a false statement Grumpy made"

from the posts i've read by you, its seems you can't think objectively

6/8/2006 11:23:35 AM

way to continue to not talk about anything regarding immigration or the english language, instead choosing to make more personal attacks

it is pretty funny that i call out a completely false statement by Grumpy and your excuse is that I'm not understanding the context.....completely ignoring the utter bullshit in his post

6/8/2006 11:30:21 AM

you win this argument because i don't have time

6/8/2006 12:01:42 PM

There are not, were not, never have been any bank robbers who want to get money illegally. They all want to be given free $texas legitimately.

6/8/2006 12:03:31 PM

Quote :

"do you really think there has never been a single, let alone thousands of, immigrant who has escaped over the border with no intentions of declaring himself? i mean jesus how naive can you get?"

Declaring himself? Isn't that asking for deportation?

You're right, TreeTwista, GrumpyGOP did make a blanket statement but don't ignore the baby in the bathwater he posted. The idea is that most illegal immigrants would love to be legal, and if you don't agree with this statement, then your understanding of this issue is contrived and self-serving.

6/8/2006 12:21:01 PM

why cant he say "most immigrants want to be legal"?

why does he instead say "There are not, were not, never have been any immigrants who want to come in illegally. They all want to come in legitimately"?

6/8/2006 2:13:29 PM

^ Tree T guy has a point. It is a misuse of the word "want" to say what Grumpy said. Immigrants "want" to avoid the hassle and wait of becoming a citizen legally, therefore they "want" to enter the U.S. as an illegal immigrant.

6/8/2006 2:27:55 PM

Quote :

"Actually, illegal immigrants do pay sales tax and about 55% pay social security tax since they are paid legally (using fake ssns). Some even file income taxes (not like these people would owe any at their income levels, anyway). The huge legal population of hispanics alone justifies accommodating them. After all, if you don't, they will vote you out of office."

Hmm first, because I was asked for justification. Can you please prove the 55% pay social security tax?

Also, some even file income taxes would be a very small portion. And not like an individual would owe a whole lot but the illegal immigrants group as a whole would owe a lot.

But really, they aren't citizens and therefore do not have to pay taxes. They also shouldn't reap the rewards of medicaid, public schools, and other public services. Most of the legal immigrants are the most outraged about illegal immigration because they feel like they worked through the system and that illegals are cheating the system.

6/8/2006 3:01:23 PM

you know what

i can almost guarantee you that if employers stopped hiring illegals, they would go back in line and wait to get papers so they could work

"no papers, no trabajo"

6/8/2006 3:39:53 PM

^couldn't agree with that more. Enforcement before any reform.

6/8/2006 3:47:49 PM

You know, you could join the rest of the world and the 21st century and just learn a 2nd language...

Espanol no muy dificil para una persona inteligente. Pero, los personas de Soap Box no estan muy inteligente.

6/8/2006 3:51:49 PM

espanol no es muy dificil para una persona intelligente. pero esa no es el punto. los que vienen a esta pais deben apprender la lengue de esta pais.

[Edited on June 8, 2006 at 4:02 PM. Reason : asdf]

6/8/2006 4:02:06 PM

Ironic that for the rest of the world that 2nd language is English.

6/8/2006 4:03:32 PM

Quote :

"do you really think there has never been a single, let alone thousands of, immigrant who has escaped over the border with no intentions of declaring himself?"

No fucking shit there have been people do that. There are also people that smear their own feces on themselves and think they're Napoleon. I'm not going to concern myself with aberrations, with things that have such an overall minor incidence.

Quote :

"Immigrants "want" to avoid the hassle and wait of becoming a citizen legally, therefore they "want" to enter the U.S. as an illegal immigrant."

This statement is false and shows your limited understanding of the issue. It isn't that becoming a citizen is "really hard." It's that it's fucking impossible. A "hassle" is when you have to fill out a giant stack of forms and wait three months to hear back, but in a hassle, you're pretty much guaranteed to get what you're after once you jump through all the hoops. Not so for immigrating to the US. Then you fill out all the forms, wait ten years, and get told, "No, sorry, no more beaners."

The simple fact is, you either have to be unbalanced or possess some substantial criminal intent (like running drugs, etc) if, given the choice, you would prefer to cross the border illegally. Here's another thing LoneSnark apparently doesn't grasp. Assuming that it was possible for them to get in legally at all, it would still be a pain in the ass, but nobody dies as a result of filling out paperwork. Plenty of people do perish crossing the border. And once all your paperwork is done, you don't have to hide in squalor to avoid the inevitable grab and deportation by the police.

Quote :

"i can almost guarantee you that if employers stopped hiring illegals, they would go back in line and wait to get papers so they could work"

Except that they wouldn't unless you made it possible for them to get papers. Right now it isn't. So they'll get some, yeah, but they'll be fake as hell.

---

PinkandBlack --

Cuando se habla de una condicion permanente, se usa "ser" y no "estar." Por eso, diga: "Las personas del Soap Box no son muy intelligentes.

Sorry, I had to have some fun there.

6/8/2006 4:45:40 PM

I don't speak english, just that first speech and this one explaining it.

6/8/2006 4:49:41 PM

Stop speaking Spanish, it's atrocious

6/8/2006 4:56:14 PM

Damn GrumpyGOP, lay off. I was merely disputing the idea that people don't want to be illegal immigrants, which is untrue unless they didn't know ahead of time that their actions would lead to them being illegal immigrants.

Let me modify my statement this way:
Immigrants "want" to come to America more than anything. However, since coming to America legally is "impossible," as Grumpy says, then Immigrants obviously "want" to come to America illegally. They have measured their options, staying at home legally and coming to America illegally, and done what they wanted to do.

6/8/2006 5:39:54 PM

Meh. Now I think we're just down to the semantics of the word "want." Getting into the country is what they want to do. Crossing illegally is what they have to do to acheive that goal. I mean, I want to make a lot of money when I get older, but that doesn't mean I want to go to school and work hard for it.

6/8/2006 5:46:16 PM

Quote :

"los que vienen a esta este pais deben apprender la lengue el lenguaje (o la lengua) de esta este pais."

Nazi de la gramática española.

[Edited on June 8, 2006 at 6:55 PM. Reason : pa' q' se lea ma' facil]

6/8/2006 6:54:26 PM