No more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh... depended on the breaks.

7/17/2006 8:53:29 PM

true, viper. we've done some ill shit in our time *cough*native americans*cough*

7/17/2006 8:56:27 PM

the larger picture shows that the a-bombing was much worse than what is done today by "terrorists". this is their only means of fighting they rarely have accurate weapons and capbility of hitting high security targets. us was trying to make japan submit and beg for mercy these guys simply want their land back.

look at even 9/11. they went after 1 millitary target 1 government target and 1 economic/powersymbol target

uss cole

even the ship attack the other day

they need to public awarness and killing the public is the best way to get that.

7/17/2006 9:07:58 PM

Quote :

"they rarely have accurate weapons"

that's because they don't WANT accurate weapons. terror precludes accuracy... dipshit.

and actually, the larger picture shows that the a-bombing was quite merciful, considering what would have happened in a full scale invasion. There are many japanese alive today who would not have existed had we NOT nuked japan.

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 9:13 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2006 9:11:36 PM

Seita probably isn't a big fan of bombing cities.

Quote :

"and actually, the larger picture shows that the a-bombing was quite merciful, considering what would have happened in a full scale invasion. There are many japanese alive today who would not have existed had we NOT nuked japan."

So you're saying we had to destroy the village to save it? How original.

Please don't ever come by my village.

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 9:14 PM. Reason : Seita]

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 9:16 PM. Reason : village]

7/17/2006 9:12:00 PM

^^there are also like 300k japs living with deformities today. i'm sure some wish they weren't living

there is no proof on how many would've died. the soviets were knocking on the back door so there was an overwhelming force. a mainland invasion was not even necessary. there were already talks of a cease fire. america didn't want that. they wanted total anhiliation. they wanted to show the soviets and everyone else american force at its best.

7/17/2006 9:17:47 PM

dude, the soviets weren't doing SHIT. And, viper, your comment might be relevant if we were only trying to save nagasaki and hiroshima.

yes, americans try and make themselves feel better with the "but more people would have died" blah blah blah. Doesn't change the fact that it was more than likely the truth. And let's see... 300K with deformities vs millions that wouldn't exist... If you are a fan of moral relativism, then take your pick.

7/17/2006 9:21:37 PM

[conspiracy theories]

ps your 300k number is bullshit. I hope you aren't implying that the atomic bombs caused widespread birth defects.

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 9:23 PM. Reason : 2]

7/17/2006 9:22:30 PM

hey cxmai, why are you such an angry bitch?

It's that time of the month again isn't it?

7/17/2006 9:23:06 PM

GOOD ONE

7/17/2006 9:23:27 PM

cease fire? HAHAHAHAHAHA. that's rich. is that why there was an attempted COUP to prevent Japan's surrender, even after the a-bombings?

7/17/2006 9:24:00 PM

All countries have commited atrocities. I think the OPs point was that the US tries to act as it is some sort of saint, when it really isn't. This country can claim no moral high ground considering some of the things this government has done, and some of the atrocities it has allowed within its borders. No country can claim the moral high ground.

7/17/2006 9:25:44 PM

Quote :

"I didn't know such filth was allowed into state run universities but I'll be happy to know she's locked up with the other nut jobs"

HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE!! If you can't debate her points, then STFU and quit crying like a little bitch. You've done nothing except troll her because she disagrees with you. Christ, why don't you just go jump on a spike and die?

7/17/2006 9:28:47 PM

Quote :

"And, viper, your comment might be relevant if we were only trying to save nagasaki and hiroshima."

Is it ever okay to murder Bob to save Frank?

Quote :

"millions that wouldn't exist..."

Pure speculation. Anyway, you'd have to be complete moron to think that we decided to bomb cities to save Japanese lives. It's possible that was a side effect, but it certainly wasn't the goal of policy makers. Hell, the public wanted to drop more a-bombs on Japan.

7/17/2006 9:29:49 PM

Protostar, I can't debate with someone who has no grip on reality. And the fact that you're defending HER/IT leads me to believe that you have no grip on reality either

7/17/2006 9:37:55 PM

Quote :

"Is it ever okay to murder Bob to save Frank? "

murder? nope. but that was hardly murder...

7/17/2006 9:38:37 PM

Quote :

"Protostar, I can't debate with someone who has no grip on reality. And the fact that you're defending HER/IT leads me to believe that you have no grip on reality either"

Translation: I cannot debate you, because you have facts/logic on your side, and all I have is my biased opinion and a bunch of people who share that same idiotic biased opinion. Facts FTL, LIES FTW!!

7/17/2006 9:39:44 PM

Quote :

"Protostar, I can't debate with someone who has no grip on reality. And the fact that you're defending HER/IT leads me to believe that you have no grip on reality either"

7/17/2006 9:41:07 PM

i'd hardly say that cxmai has "facts." (s)he just has hatred

7/17/2006 9:41:37 PM

listen jackasses, first of all I was talking about cxmai, and I've debated plenty...BridgetSPK, after calling me some names, asked me numbered questions, and I answered them, free of fallacies.

There are people on here who share a difference of opinion that I can debate with, and have been. cxmai and you two are not on that list.

7/17/2006 9:43:30 PM

I was expecting an "Oh Wait!"

this thread gets 0/10

[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 9:44 PM. Reason : d]

7/17/2006 9:44:33 PM

gg

7/17/2006 9:46:08 PM

my2blurs, you make me wet

7/17/2006 9:47:55 PM

I thought i was in chit chat

7/17/2006 9:48:56 PM

Quote :

"i'd hardly say that cxmai has "facts." (s)he just has hatred"

She (?) has a number of facts in the original post.

7/17/2006 10:02:35 PM

Quote :

"By idiots, maybe. You might as well be quoting Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf. The "OMF 1 MILLION AMERICANS WOULD DIE" shit is straight from Truman. It's bunk."

Find a source then. Albeit a igher estimate, one million allied troops and close to ten million japanese is a fairly agreed upon number.

Quote :

"the soviets were knocking on the back door so there was an overwhelming force."

Yes, and the soviets back then were so merciful. Please look at soviet atrocities in eastern europe as evidence. They declared war in august of 1945 in an effort to grab land in manchuria while the war was still on. Had we allowed them to be a part of the invasion then Japan would most likely have ended up a divided nation like Germany or Korea.

Quote :

"a mainland invasion was not even necessary."

70,000 US Marines landed on Iwo Jima (an island of only 8 square miles) in February 1945.

6,821 Killed
19,217 Wounded
2,648 Combat Fatigue
28,686 Casualties Total

Upwards of 20,000 japanese were killed. Just over 1,000 were taken prisoner.

The battle of Okinawa lasted until June of 1945 and resulted in 12,500 Americans killed and 38,000 wounded.

The Japanese suffered 110,000 killed and 7,455 captured.

No one knows exactly how many civilians killed themselves after the Japanese told them that American soldiers would rape and kill them. There is some famous footage of women jumping from cliffs with the children instead of surrendering to allied troops.

Does that sound like a broken force that was ready to surrender without a fight? The staunch resistance on Okinawa was one of the key factors that convinced american military planners that the atomic bomb was the easier way to end the war - for both sides. Most people doubted that the Japanese would capitulate so quickly following the bombing. Truman was still planning for an invasion on August 15.

Quote :

"there were already talks of a cease fire."

By civilian elements within the government. Unfortunately the military held power and treated such people as traitors. The greatest hopes for a cease fire were that the Japanese would be able to inflict enough casualties on the allies during the invasion that they would exhaust their supply of troops and offer an armistice. One of the key points of their defense was using kamikazes and suicide boats to attack troop transports rather than capital ships. Had this happened they could have sunk one third of the invasion fleet before it even landed.

Quote :

"Is it ever okay to murder Bob to save Frank?"

300,000 dead vs the millions more who would have died in an invasion is hardly an issue of killing one person to save another.

7/17/2006 10:14:17 PM

Your entire argument hinges on the fact that American lives are somehow more important than Japanese lives. Since that "fact" is logically impossible to prove, your argument falls apart.

7/17/2006 10:17:35 PM

Quote :

"Find a source then."

What's your source? Truman doesn't count.

Quote :

"Albeit a igher estimate, one million allied troops and close to ten million japanese is a fairly agreed upon number."

No it isn't.

Quote :

"Truman was still planning for an invasion on August 15."

The military is always planning everything.

Quote :

"300,000 dead vs the millions more who would have died in an invasion is hardly an issue of killing one person to save another."

Your numbers are bullshit, but the numbers don't really matter. Murder one person to save another is never a moral act. And I'll repeat:

Quote :

"Anyway, you'd have to be complete moron to think that we decided to bomb cities to save Japanese lives. It's possible that was a side effect, but it certainly wasn't the goal of policy makers. Hell, the public wanted to drop more a-bombs on Japan."

7/17/2006 10:20:49 PM

Ha...Protostar telling someone their argument falls apart.



HAHAHAHAH

7/17/2006 10:23:32 PM

Quote :

"Ha...Protostar telling someone there argument falls apart. HAHAHAHAH"

Do you have an actual argument or are you just trolling as usual?

7/17/2006 10:25:10 PM

Mr. Joshua must be trolling. Ten million Japanese dead? That's crazy.

7/17/2006 10:33:52 PM

if the japanese were so determined to not surrender and rather jump off cliffs why was there magically peace after two atomic bombs? the answer is because the atomic bombs killed them easily but you are arguing they rather jump off cliffs so something just doesnt add up because even after a-bombs the jumping off cliffs option was still availible.

7/17/2006 10:40:08 PM

i think the bomb just scared them shitless

7/17/2006 10:41:17 PM

Quote :

"Your entire argument hinges on the fact that American lives are somehow more important than Japanese lives."

in a sense, that's a ridiculous concept...but when you're America and you're at war with Japan, well, you're more ok with dead Japanese than dead Americans.



anyway, as far as the Soviet thing goes, I think we would've likely nuked them even if the USSR wasn't a factor...I just don't think we would've nuked them twice in, what, 3 days? We MIGHT not've nuked a populated city on the first shot, either...and we might've been a little slower to make that decision.

So yes, keeping Stalin from staking a claim in the rebuilding of Japan was certainly a factor in the decision...as was saving American lives...and it's possible that the prospect of a net saving of Japanese lives entered into Truman's decision.


And the wholesale destruction of entire cities was practiced by both sides in WWII, and sometimes on an even more catastrophic scale than Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

7/17/2006 10:41:40 PM

Quote :

"in a sense, that's a ridiculous concept...but when you're America and you're at war with Japan, well, you're more ok with dead Japanese than dead Americans."

Maybe from a emotional standpoint, but not from a logical one. A human being is a human being. One is worth just as much as the next, no matter age, gender, race, or nationality.

7/17/2006 10:43:41 PM

Protostar, I'm not the troll here.

7/17/2006 10:48:56 PM

^^um...no. where do you get your information? last time i checked the going rates were

1 american
2 jews
37 arabs



[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 10:53 PM. Reason : and that american can even be a katrinamerican]

7/17/2006 10:52:24 PM

Quote :

"No more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh... depended on the breaks."

One of the best parts of that scene is the name of the notebook in front of him.



[Edited on July 17, 2006 at 10:58 PM. Reason : THERE]

7/17/2006 10:55:07 PM

Red exes ARE hilarious.

7/17/2006 10:55:53 PM

cxmai, you are just a retarded babbling brat who doesn't realize where she came from. go live out in the real world sometime, k?

7/17/2006 10:56:12 PM

Quote :

"and it's possible that the prospect of a net saving of Japanese lives entered into Truman's decision."

That's pretty unlikely. It's more likely he wanted to punish the Japanese for Pearl Harbor. I don't think it was a huge factor, but it was there.

7/17/2006 10:59:17 PM

Shit! I never noticed that notebook!

7/17/2006 11:13:27 PM

Quote :

"One is worth just as much as the next, no matter age, gender, race, or nationality."

well, in that case, shut your fucking hole. We ended up with a NET INCREASE in lives saved. so, like I said, shut the fuck up.

7/17/2006 11:19:16 PM

Quote :

"Shit! I never noticed that notebook!"

I think I saw it the third or fourth time.

7/17/2006 11:20:09 PM

^^^^

yeah, very well could be the case. no way to get inside his brain.

7/17/2006 11:40:39 PM

Quote :

"We ended up with a NET INCREASE in lives saved. so, like I said, shut the fuck up."

Pure speculation.

Quote :

"yeah, very well could be the case. no way to get inside his brain."

Well, responding to objections to using the bomb, Truman said the following: "When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true."

7/17/2006 11:55:09 PM

7/18/2006 12:15:57 AM

Well that's just fantastic.

7/18/2006 12:16:59 AM

Quote :

"Your entire argument hinges on the fact that American lives are somehow more important than Japanese lives."

You are goddamn right they are.

America, FUCK YEAH!

7/18/2006 12:42:08 AM

set em up

7/18/2006 1:07:59 AM