Quote :

"Lavim: I realize many look at a ground invasion as an escalation, but I assume (possibly incorrectly) that a superior ground force would be the best way to limit casualties of civilians, both Lebanese and Israeli"

Over the longer run, I agree with you. Initially at least, I think there'd be heavier civilian casualties in any ground invasion than what we've seen from the air strikes. The enemy lacks uniforms, so this is unavoidable. The best Israel can do is to continue dropping leaflets in civilian areas it intends to attack, even if the attack is coming from the ground.

But, if there's a humane way to conduct this war, that'd be it.

I just question how effective the military response is going to be at preventing Hezbollah from regrouping, gaining recruits, and attacking again in the future.

Quote :

"Lavim: (I suspect an initial all-out ground assult would have been able to cripple Hezbollah by this 3 1/2 week point)."

I wonder, are you taking into consideration the tunnels they were using to distrbute arms?

Generally speaking, though, if the invasion could've occurred in a vacuum (i.e. other nations, notably Syria & Iran, cannot respond to the invasion), I fundamentally agree that Israel would've been better able to reduce Hezbollah's destructive capacity more swiftly from the ground.

8/11/2006 2:29:11 PM

Wasn't talking to you with those quotes Gamecat. You don't say that.

8/11/2006 2:38:03 PM

Quote :

"A Somali boy poses with a toy gun in front of a home made Lebanese flag, Friday, Aug.11, 2006 during an anti-Israeli demonstration after Friday prayers in the capital, Mogadishu."

8/11/2006 3:04:13 PM

You know what?

Looking at that photo makes it pretty clear to me how so many of us can actually believe that aggressive, violent solutions to most problems are inevitable.

8/11/2006 3:10:25 PM

Its pretty clear that Iran got Hezbollah to kidnap the two Israeli soldiers a few weeks ago and create a war between Hezbollah and Israel to keep the news spotlight off of Iran's advancing nuclear program

8/11/2006 3:52:05 PM

Back to the topic.

Israel bombed a convoy of civilians escaping, escorted by the UN. 4 people died. So much for "precision bombing". This is what, like the 10th or so escaping civilian convoy being bombed?

In return, Israeli and Western civilians will continue to die for decades.

Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 4:57 PM. Reason : ]

8/11/2006 4:55:00 PM

right or wrong, you're a dumbass

8/11/2006 4:55:43 PM

Right or wrong, Israel's *GASP* made a basic concession to Hezbollah/Lebanon on the deal being brokered through the US and *DOUBLE GASP* France!

It appears the conflict may be at its peak...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14258758/

Quote :

"Olmert accepts Mideast peace deal Israeli officials: PM will recommend approval of plan to deploy U.N. troops JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has accepted an emerging Mideast cease-fire deal and informed the United States of his decision, Israeli officials said Friday. Olmert will recommend that his government approve the deal in its upcoming meeting on Sunday, said Gideon Meir, a senior official in the Israeli Foreign Ministry. ... Concession to Lebanon and Hezbollah Britain’s U.N. Ambassador Emyr Jones-Parry said the resolution would give a U.N. force in Lebanon an enhanced mandate to help coordinate the eventual withdrawal of Israeli troops. But it would ultimately be deployed under Chapter 6 of the U.N. Charter — which Israel has previously opposed. That decision was a key concession to Lebanon and Hezbollah. Israel wanted the force deployed under the Charter’s Chapter 7, which would give the troops more robust rules of engagement. “You’ll find that the mandate for the force is very robust,” Jones-Parry said. “Although the government of Lebanon will have gained a certain amount in the changes that we’ve made, it’s also the case that Israel has had concerns and no one has wanted to lose Israel from that equation,” he said. The two sides sent the new text to the governments of Israel and Lebanon, but a French diplomat said the vote would go ahead whatever the response."

Read the whole thing. It sounds promising.

8/11/2006 5:33:40 PM

i'd love to see peace in the middle east...believe me

but you must understand i have a right to be skeptical that the peace will last for any extended period of time as is evident by all the other cease fires and peace agreements that were broken

8/11/2006 5:37:29 PM

indeed...i would wager that these "cease fires" only delay the inevitable and actually increase the number of deaths that will occurr

8/11/2006 5:40:53 PM

^^ I'm honestly looking at the concession to Hezbollah, or compromise as a positive step here, not the end of the conflit as we know it. It's the kind of signal I'm talking about.

8/11/2006 5:48:56 PM

1967[/peace]

8/12/2006 2:08:12 AM

I dont think Iran prompted Hezbollah to kidnap the soldiers. I also dont think that they disagree with the capturing of those soldiers, but lets to try to make Iran the instigators of all of this. Hezbollah has its own issues and fights its own war, just backed militarily and financially by Iran and Syria.

8/12/2006 1:33:16 PM

^ you should stop by more often.

8/12/2006 2:19:19 PM

I love how many of the ignorant users here don't know that Israel has lost over 80 tanks since this thing started. Obviously your cnn, foxnews and msnbc won't show it. Try watching it live on aljazeera along with a lot of inside information. With the ceasefire set for tomorrow, Israel has lost this war.

8/13/2006 1:45:56 PM

8/13/2006 1:55:58 PM

lmao 230 rockets today. does anybody else find it hilarious that the more troops israel sends in and the more they claim to have "destroyed hezbollahs ability to wage war" the rate of rockets into israel increases?

8/13/2006 2:18:17 PM

yeah, they have a russian made weapon that tracks the tank. They just launch it off their shoulder.

8/13/2006 2:19:26 PM

haha..yeah...ya know whats so funny....after this next cease fire fails...and hezbollah starts killing people again...israel is probably just going to nuke beruit...haha...wouldnt that be so awesome!!

8/13/2006 3:10:06 PM

^ yeah, it WOULD be so awesome, for someone who delights in genocide.

sicko.

[Edited on August 13, 2006 at 3:24 PM. Reason : are you descended from hitler or stalin? or maybe ariel sharon?]

8/13/2006 3:20:31 PM

nah...im actually descended from an arab...crazy...i know...and im pretty sure neither hitler, stalin, or sharon was arab...

but yeah...when lebanon does nothing to stop hezbollah from regrouping and stiking again...israel should, and probably will just flatten beruit...and more power to them

8/13/2006 3:54:19 PM

hezbollah struck in defense though. why would they strike again?

8/13/2006 3:57:42 PM

IN DEFENSE? ARE YOU REALLY THAT FUCKING STUPID?

listen, I don't call kidnapping 2 soldiers unprovoked a "defensive" action.

8/13/2006 6:43:10 PM

^^wow....

are you kidding me??

you have got to be kidding me...

either that or you are just trying really hard to be decieved by hezbollah propoganda...so im not even going to bother to refute that

8/13/2006 6:47:29 PM

i don't even read propaganda but kidnapping is far from "striking" especially in an area where all parties kidnap people everyday including israel.

since when is kidnapping an act of war?

how can lebanon stop hezbollah from kidnapping anyway? also, disarming hezbollah has no relation to kidnapping. they don't need rockets to kidnap.

8/13/2006 10:31:05 PM

right...you and your friends come kidnap my little sister....then....when me and my friends come beat the crap out of you to get her back...call it self defense...

ha...self defense...what a joke

Quote :

"all parties kidnap people everyday"

no...they dont

Quote :

"disarming hezbollah has no relation to kidnapping. they don't need rockets to kidnap."

i dont even know how to respond to this stupidity....lets say hezbollah was only shooting off mortars and not rockets...should israel only take out thier mortars??...i mean...thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard

[Edited on August 13, 2006 at 10:42 PM. Reason : asdf]

8/13/2006 10:35:30 PM

you said that israel intends on coming back if lebanon doesn't keep hezbollah from "striking" again which they didn't do in the first place. then you explained to me that striking means kidnapping.

how can lebanon keep people from kidnapping?

basically you're saying israel is like if you don't do 3 backflips while juggling bowling balls we will destroy you.

israel kidnaps people all the time.

Quote :

"right...you and your friends come kidnap my little sister....then....when me and my friends come beat the crap out of you to get her back...call it self defense..."

its more like i kidnap your sister and you come beat the shit out of everyone in my neighborhood.
israel knew it would never get its soldiers back this way and never intended on getting soldiers back. hez said from the beggining the only way to get them back was diplomacy.

8/13/2006 11:06:21 PM

Quote :

"listen, I don't call kidnapping 2 soldiers unprovoked a "defensive" action."

They captured soliders in order to do a trade for their own kidnapped soliders, they've done this several times before, this time israel just used it as an excuse to attack lebanon.

8/13/2006 11:13:03 PM

Quote :

"Obviously your cnn, foxnews and msnbc won't show it. Try watching it live on aljazeera"

yeah theres an unbiased news source

8/13/2006 11:27:43 PM

oh no, Republican18 commenting on somehting he's never seen.

thats new.

8/13/2006 11:31:39 PM

dude if you think al jazeera is an unbiased news source you are a bigger idiot than i thought. can you be objective in your thinking for like one minute

[Edited on August 13, 2006 at 11:39 PM. Reason : .]

8/13/2006 11:39:23 PM

its no more biased than Fox. i would say less biased.

you see, they hire people who actually have journalism credentials.



[Edited on August 13, 2006 at 11:42 PM. Reason : asdf]

8/13/2006 11:41:48 PM

sure its unbiased, whatever dude

8/13/2006 11:47:48 PM

bias does not neccesarily imply lying

8/14/2006 12:33:27 AM

^^ did i even ONCE say that AlJazeera was "unbiased"

no i did not.

so, what is your malfunction, then? do you have reading comprehension problems, or are you just mentally slow?

8/14/2006 1:33:01 AM

there is a palestinian camp in Lebanon. don't be surprised to see it fire a missle into israel especially after israel said that it would hit downtown beirut (something they would simply do out of jealousy, since the beauty of Lebanon is far more than israel could wish). israel doesn't want lebanon to advance as a country because they're simply smarter than those jews. this will cause the cease-fire to end.

8/14/2006 3:07:04 AM

^ jesus christ dude. here we are in the battle of public opinion, and you just go and shoot yourself in the foot.

8/14/2006 3:18:20 AM

Quote :

"you said that israel intends on coming back if lebanon doesn't keep hezbollah from "striking" again which they didn't do in the first place. then you explained to me that striking means kidnapping. how can lebanon keep people from kidnapping? basically you're saying israel is like if you don't do 3 backflips while juggling bowling balls we will destroy you. israel kidnaps people all the time. "

well pardon me...perhaps "striking" is not the best word since you continue to use this as an excuse to justify hezbollah. I should have said that Israel is will strike again if hezbollah does anything agressive. surely your propaganda-controlled mind can understand that crossing the border and kidnapping soldiers is agression. in this case, israel should and hopefully will do whatever is necessary to gain control of thie situation.

Quote :

"israel kidnaps people all the time. "

link??

Quote :

"its more like i kidnap your sister and you come beat the shit out of everyone in my neighborhood."

this could perhaps be justification for lebanon to strike in self defense...but it sure isnt justification for hezbollah to. hezbollah crossed the border and kidnapped soldiers. anything damage that occurs to them...they asked for it.

Quote :

"there is a palestinian camp in Lebanon. don't be surprised to see it fire a missle into israel especially after israel said that it would hit downtown beirut (something they would simply do out of jealousy, since the beauty of Lebanon is far more than israel could wish). israel doesn't want lebanon to advance as a country because they're simply smarter than those jews. this will cause the cease-fire to end. "

you my friend...are asking for and deserve all the pain you get

[Edited on August 14, 2006 at 8:08 AM. Reason : asdf]

8/14/2006 8:07:09 AM

ok you're right on all that except i dont watch propaganda. ive never even seen it before. and israel does kidnap alot of people all the time. why should i have to find a link because you lack knowledge of a common fact?

what about the soldiers?
you said israel went to get their soldiers back when they clearly didn't

8/14/2006 10:42:32 AM

i never said israel wanted thier soldiers back....


i dont know if they do or not...i suspect its not really an issue because israel knows they will never get them back...they have probably already been decapitated and are rotting in a ditch somewhere...whether hezbollah has murdered the soldiers or not..israel has reacted in the appropriate way...with a no-tolerance policy towards agression into thier territory and on thier people...

it is a shame that so many innocents have died...but this too is hezbollah's fault...if they are going to shoot of rockets from crowded neighborhoods and build apartment complexes on top of bomb bunkers...then its hezbollah's fault that innocent people are dying

8/14/2006 10:50:04 AM

Quote :

"with a no-tolerance policy towards agression into thier territory and on thier people..."

Wow, what great hypocrisy, coming from people who kicked out people from their homes and moved in, and have killed them in great numbers.

Disgusting

8/14/2006 11:21:10 AM

Quote :

"link??"

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2263563

Quote :

" suspect its not really an issue because israel knows they will never get them back"

They've gotten them back several times before, they just have to trade them captured hezbollah soliders.

8/14/2006 11:25:56 AM

so because hezbollah isn't dumb enough to go out in the open and die easily its their fault civilians die?

or is it anybody who agitates israel is responsible for the poeple israel kills?

none of the blame can be shared with the people who are actually doing the killing?

israel has a right to protect itself but i don't see an iminent threat in a few soldiers being kidnapped. certainly not worth 1000 lives.

8/14/2006 12:02:48 PM

let's just say that this thing is far from over since Israel said that it will still go for nasrallah. the question is, if there's a cease-fire and 15000 lebanese troops in southern lebanon along with disarming hezbollah, why would they still go for him?

Well the resolutions that brought the cease-fire were very broad and just mentioned for example sheba3a farms, lebanese prisoners in israel and other issues. But it wasn't specific about anything so they didn't agree on anything. I think in about a week tops the fighting will continue especially if israel doesn't get back it's soldiers. Also, let's not forget that the palestinians in lebanon might make a move to spark trouble. From the beginning, I believed that this had a lot to do with naturalizing the palestinians in lebanon. Until now, Israel hasn't really touched fatah palestinian camps in lebanon... and when it hit there once, fatah and israel right away declared it was a mistake.

8/14/2006 12:39:44 PM

i think everyone needs to realize that israel has killed a shit load of more people throughout history...lebanon is only another victim. palestine has been suffereing from thier military for years....people in america are not exposed to the real truth....what they watch; CNN..ect, shows only the israeli side of the battle....hands down, it is not even worth arguing that the israilies have a louder voice in america. why do you think the news still talks about 9/11 to this day?? because EVERY TIME YOU MENTION THE WORD "ISLAMIC TERRORIST" IT LETS PEOPLE THINK THAT ISRAEIL IS JUSTIFIED IN KILLING ARABS/MUSLIMS.......PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

and people still wonder why the whole world HATES americans....ITS BECAUSE YOU DONT SEE THINGS FROM EVERY ANGLE...and its not really the average american's fault.. he is only watching what is shown to him.

8/14/2006 9:13:00 PM

The problem is that the pro-Arab voices making reasonable comments don't receive much media attention at home or abroad. When they do, it's usually for no more than five minutes, only following images of an emotionally explosive event involving radical Muslims, and only then after they've been forced to play spokesman or at least devil's advocate for a minute or two. By the time that's all over, what they say doesn't matter anymore, because no one's going to listen.

That doesn't create a fair impression of their ideas or beliefs at all.

How does that look reversed?

Imagine you, an American intellectual, were going on an Arab TV show after Haditha to balance some of the views of the other guests. To introduce your five-minute segment, the host does a voiceover about the atrocity in Haditha while images roll of the blood and destruction from the event. Then he introduces his guests: standard Arab talking head who believes America does this all the time and should die, and you. You're immediately asked by the host to explain why American soldiers slaughtered Iraqi women and children.

Assuming a reasonable discussion ensued (huge assumption), how likely do you think your message is to reach the Iraqi public in an impactful way? Do you think the Iraqi would be able to make a fair judgment about your ideas and beliefs?

Some would respond that within most of these countries, such a debate is impossible because the forums are so tightly controlled. It's a fair, but absolutely irrelevant point. Remember, our goal is not to resemble, indeed to fight nations that restrict the free and fair flow of information.

If anything, we ought to foster an environment that welcomes more information about the POV on their side of the conflict, their motivations and aims, not less. If the organizations really have no message beyond hatred, murder, and ignorance, and are grounded in historical misconceptions, and the idea that compromise is impossible; I don't see how that wouldn't come through in the messages, allowing the public to reasonably conclude that fighting these guys isn't such a bad thing.

How does this help the terrorists?

We send small victories to our enemy with each more restrictive habit we absorb, by fostering an environment in which the moderates are drowned out by the extremists. Most of us agree that such an environment is what led to the radicalization of their people. One wonders why no one (at least within America) publicly cites the radicalization of Americans as a similar danger, despite the vastly greater destructive power available to them.

By tilting the playing field against intellectual consideration of our enemy's ideas in the media--however radical they are, we do ourselves and the democracy we're fighting to protect, a greater disservice by allowing it to inch in the direction of the Shah and other authoritarian societies.

[Edited on August 15, 2006 at 3:55 PM. Reason : ...]

8/15/2006 3:48:14 PM

joe_schmoe is just another victim of the Hezbollah propaganda machine

8/15/2006 10:35:39 PM

Quote :

"and people still wonder why the whole world HATES americans....ITS BECAUSE YOU DONT SEE THINGS FROM EVERY ANGLE...and its not really the average american's fault.. he is only watching what is shown to him."

Gee, I wonder if we could use that same logic to say that the people that hate America don't see things from every angle and that they are only watching what is shown to them. Nah, Americans are the only ones

8/16/2006 7:49:51 AM