3

9/16/2006 12:19:01 AM

Well, the idea behind the training and classroom stuff is to drill into your head that you don't draw until it's life-threatening anyway.

You people make it sound like one carries guns because one is expecting to get into fights or some silly shit like that. Just about everyone I know (I'm hedging against just saying "everybody" because there probably are a few dumbasses who I know peripherally) gets really paranoid about avoiding fights, precisely because they don't want to risk escalating shit if it happens.

Fun fact: >90% of all defensive gun "usage" involves 0 shots fired. Apparently just showing one (or acting like you're about to draw one) is enough to end a lot of confrontations.

9/16/2006 12:23:31 AM

I'm gonna start blasting people for j-walking

9/16/2006 12:24:07 AM

Quote :

"In a genuine rape, it's pretty safe to assume that the first levels have been bypassed. "

in a stranger rape scenario, I would agree w/ this assumption for the victim

but I don't think you can make that assumption for the 3rd party (you the CCP holder). If you were to intervene, just making your presence known to the rapist could stop the offense. At that point I would hate (well only partially) for the good samaritan to continue to believe that deadly forces is authorized.

9/16/2006 12:25:45 AM

I blasted a dude for cutting in line the other day

because thats how I roll

9/16/2006 12:27:09 AM

If he was cutting in an aggresive manner and was intending to harm the wellfare of the rest of the line it was justified.

9/16/2006 12:29:36 AM

Quote :

"gets really paranoid about avoiding fights, precisely because they don't want to risk escalating shit if it happens. "

that comes w/ the responsibility. A beating is easier to explain, and easier to administer to just the right level (ie; incapacitated) than a gunshot - thats one level (deadly force) and you own it.

I guess I don't remember what the fascination was with being able to carry concealed, any problems it might solve are offset by the problems it creates.

9/16/2006 12:31:04 AM

Quote :

"making your presence known to the rapist could stop the offense"

God forbid, if I ever came across a situation like that, I hope that's all it takes. I got my CCW permit just in case I need to carry somewhere. Hopefully I'll never actually have to use it, but the ability to have a firearm on me when I'm travelling or going to an unfamiliar area is a big plus.

9/16/2006 12:34:05 AM

^^^ well... I always shoot first ask questions later, especially over stufflike that

Quote :

"I guess I don't remember what the fascination was with being able to carry concealed, any problems it might solve are offset by the problems it creates."

WHAT???

so do you think law abiding citizens shouldn't be able to carry concealed?

[Edited on September 16, 2006 at 12:34 AM. Reason : %&#^$#]

9/16/2006 12:34:44 AM

^I agree w/ Dropouts argument about CCW. I'm mean if thats your thing its cool, but it can open up a can of worms and NC Law really prohibits alot of the places you would want (I guess?) to carry.

9/16/2006 12:36:45 AM

Quote :

"A beating is easier to explain, and easier to administer to just the right level (ie; incapacitated) than a gunshot - thats one level (deadly force) and you own it."

The correct legal answer to this is simply not to get into fights. IMO, violence isn't an option for solving conflicts, until/unless it comes down to defending life & limb.

That said, if you're going to beat someone down, be effective about it. Because you are in deep shit if you start a fight, start losing it, and then shoot the other guy because you think you're about to die.

9/16/2006 12:41:04 AM

Quote :

"The correct legal answer to this is simply not to get into fights. IMO, violence isn't an option for solving conflicts, until/unless it comes down to defending life & limb. "

ding ding ding

9/16/2006 12:46:31 AM

I agree completely ^, ^^

oh yeah

http://www.gunowners.org/abcnews.mpg

mms://a568.v129484.c12948.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/568/12948/v0001/vod.ibsys.com/2005/0908/4946889.300k.wmv

nah, citizens shouldn't own weapons at all

ps, read
"unintended consequences"

[Edited on September 16, 2006 at 12:49 AM. Reason : .]

9/16/2006 12:48:35 AM

Unintended Consequences...a rant disguised as a novel.

It's fun to read, but geez it's shitty writing. The historical bits were fascinating, though.

9/16/2006 1:10:35 AM

Quote :

"so do you think law abiding citizens shouldn't be able to carry concealed? "

I dont mind at all, but it seems to me that many CCP/CCW holders just think it's "cool" to have a gun with them and don't really understand the enormity of the responsibility. That said, I have only rarely encountered them in a 'professional' sense.

Quote :

"That said, if you're going to beat someone down, be effective about it. Because you are in deep shit if you start a fight, start losing it, and then shoot the other guy because you think you're about to die."

Exactly, and if you notice the info from DOJ that OMGHAX posted above - you can't instigate the fight to enable your use of deadly force
(quote: Excessive force in defense of others is not allowed, and neither the intervenor nor the person threatened can be an instigator voluntarily provoking the conflict for deadly force to be used.)

But along those lines, if you are armed and get into a fight you are then potentially in a gunfight - because you brought one into it with you. It's a lifetime of problems to get in a fistfight, start losing, panic, clear leather, and end someone's life .... whereas you probably would've just been embarassed and maybe needed some stitches and an ego boost but everyone goes on w/ their existence.

Another issue is the one of identification when law enforcement arrives - cops on the same dept. are known to kill each other. The mind (civilian or law enforcement) tends to tunnelvision down onto the weapon when adrenaline starts flowing ... and things like sound can also get shut out. If you do make the decision to carry, just have a plan and think through your plan everytime you carry.

fwiw, cops are taught over and over and over that "being a good witness" is nearly always the best action off duty - including when the cop is the victim (there are limitless hypothetical situations of course, but FBI studies of dead cops involved in off duty shootings prove this and then some). Granted there are CCP holders that have a better mindset than some cops, but on the whole these are people who work the CJ system daily, carry daily, and are trained and qualified constantly - so I can't imagine it's much better for CCP v. criminal than it is Off Duty v. criminal. Remember, if you are reacting to what the bad guy is doing you are already behind the curve....

and now i'm beginning to bore myself so i'll stop

[Edited on September 16, 2006 at 1:20 PM. Reason : clarify i'm not anti CCP]

9/16/2006 1:19:29 PM

:Sigh:
Everyone who fears guns throws lots of crap and half facts up and throws a shit fit any time anything gun related makes the news. Heres soemthing for you to look into and prove or disprove for yourself. Utah allows concealed cary more or less everywhere. They have check stations on places that do not allow them as you may not legally leave the gun in your car or any other place it may be stolen while you are inside. When a president, VP, or even candidtes for those offices visite utah, they provide gun check boxes so you can leave your gun as you go in and pick it back up as you exit the arena. They allow concelaed carry on campuses.

Quote :

"Places off-limits while carrying Date updated: Aug 8, 2005 @ 10:14 pm From the state's Firearms FAQ: It is unlawful for a person with a firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in the following locations: * Any secure area in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition is posted * A secure area of an airport * Any courthouse, courtroom, mental health facility or correctional facility that may provide by rule that no firearm may be transported, sold, given, or possessed upon the facility. At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to a secure area in which a dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive is restricted * What about private business, can they post signs prohibiting someone from carrying a gun into their business even though the person may have a firearm permit? Naturally, private property owners may apply what ever restrictions they want, whether or not these restrictions violates ones personal rights is for the civil courts to decide. But the only statutory restriction on a permit holder is secured areas such as airports and federal buildings. * May I carry my loaded and concealed firearm into a bar or other drinking other establishment? There is nothing in state statute that prohibits permit holders from being in a bar with a concealed firearm. However, it is illegal to be intoxicated and in possession of a firearm. The level of intoxication that is considered illegal is held to the same standard as when driving a car. Utah Code 76-10-530 covers the law on Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty. Link to Churches in Utah that have notified BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms on their premises. "

http://www.packing.org/state/utah/

Last time i checked the stats, utah has had a steady DROP in on campus violent crime, not rapeassault, but any violent crime. This shows that an increase in LEGAL cary in a place shows a coresponding DECREASE in criminal activity.

9/16/2006 2:03:53 PM

As nice as it would be to be armed on campus in case of an attack, the thought of punk asses being armed on campus is so worrisome, that I'd rather waive the idea. Remember the guys in jail now for last year's string of charades on NCSU's campus? And the recent "sniper" on that other college campus.

[Edited on September 16, 2006 at 2:11 PM. Reason : ]

9/16/2006 2:10:58 PM

yeah we dont need more dumbasses with guns. im all for people being able to own them, and i feel a lot more comfortable now that i have mine... but i dont think they belong at schools.

9/16/2006 2:25:17 PM

we should all just carry around gernades

9/16/2006 2:30:35 PM

Quote :

"As nice as it would be to be armed on campus in case of an attack, the thought of punk asses being armed on campus is so worrisome, that I'd rather waive the idea. Remember the guys in jail now for last year's string of charades on NCSU's campus? And the recent "sniper" on that other college campus. "

The problem with the argument presented here though is that it A) fails to take into account that such events occured DESPITE a ban on guns and B) Presumes that allowing guns on campus would produce a greater number of similar incidents. Yet in the end, the question is if you were planning on shooting someone, would the fact that guns are banned where you plan on shooting that person actualy disuade you?

9/16/2006 4:18:45 PM

^^
Way to change the subject of conversation.

^^^,^^^^
There's nothing preventing such a dumbass from bringing a gun onto campus anyway.

And again, if some dumbass does start shooting up schools, wouldn't it be nice for someone to return fire for a change? I mean, shit, I could tie a bandolier around my waist, pick up my Mauser, and just go to town in the Brickyard one afternoon, and there wouldn't be a thing to stop me. Police aren't generally trained or equipped to deal with that kind of thing. And even if they were, if I decided to go on a rampage, those uniforms make for wonderful "shoot me first!" signs.

If you're so worried about school shootings, then arm the would-be "victims". Sheesh. We are not sheep.

9/17/2006 2:17:05 AM

Quote :

"And again, if some dumbass does start shooting up schools, wouldn't it be nice for someone to return fire for a change?"

It's all well and good until someone tries to be a hero and shoots an innocent person instead of their intended target.

Or someone else with a gun arrives late who only sees a bunch of people who were shot and one guy (the guy who returned fire) with a gun and shoots him instead.

9/17/2006 3:15:44 AM

^ what about all the other innocents that were shot?

9/17/2006 8:34:37 AM

gun control is great

just ask hitler, stalin, castro, and saddam!

9/17/2006 8:39:41 AM

Quote :

"It's all well and good until someone tries to be a hero and shoots an innocent person instead of their intended target."

What is the likelyhood of this happening?

9/17/2006 11:31:58 AM

^
Statistically...higher with police than random people with their carry guns.

Quote :

"Or someone else with a gun arrives late who only sees a bunch of people who were shot and one guy (the guy who returned fire) with a gun and shoots him instead."

Well, there are ways to avoid that as the "guy who returned fire", like walking around tending to wounded, having survivors not freaking out when they look at you, talking to survivors without pointing your gun at them, etc.. There are all sorts of ways to make yourself read "friendly", even without just putting away your gun.

[Edited on September 17, 2006 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

9/17/2006 11:49:26 AM

didn't really read the thread

don't think a knee jerk reaction to a school shooting in canadia is appropriate


however, i don't think that people with a CCP should be restricted from carrying on campus, and i don't think you should be restricted from keeping a pistol in the trunk of your car (i keep a .45 in the trunk of my car lots of times).

i don't think people should have guns in their dorm rooms (unless maybe they are CCP holders and keep it locked in a secure location at all times)

9/17/2006 11:57:55 AM

Pistol, hell, if you're going to keep a trunk gun, put a rifle (or carbine, or shotgun—some kind of shoulder weapon) in there.

9/17/2006 12:59:58 PM

Quote :

"wouldnt the fact that someone shot 20 people be a reason NOT to have guns on campus. "

Yes, in stupid land.

The guns are already NOT allowed on campus. The killer decided to break that rule TOO during his shooting spree. You see, having this whole "no guns on campus" thing is in effect right now and this guy broke that rule and shot all these people. It wasn't like he just happened to bring the rifle with him and the gun magically made him go on a rampage.

He was stopped before more died because a police officer with a gun shot and killed him. Had a few students also been carrying (legally, with a CC permit and with the school rule not in place to keep them off campus) this guy probably would have been popped before he shot all 20 people.

9/17/2006 1:06:23 PM

You miss the point. The antigun people think it would be better if the cop didn't have a gun.

9/17/2006 2:32:16 PM

^^^haha, not in an S2000

(although i sold it yesterday, so maybe with my next car...or maybe not. i can do what i need to do with the .45)

9/17/2006 2:38:39 PM

Quote :

"Yet in the end, the question is if you were planning on shooting someone, would the fact that guns are banned where you plan on shooting that person actualy disuade you?"

Well, it is a bit easier when you're allowed to carry da gat around every day o' the week. Then you can go on a killing spree whatever you feel like it! No need to plan ahead or worry about getting caught before you do the deed.

That said, I am in favor of guns on campus.

9/17/2006 2:40:15 PM

^^
SU16C and a red dot. GTG.

9/17/2006 6:01:45 PM

Quote :

"Statistically...higher with police than random people with their carry guns. "

ok i'll bite, wheres the statistic on this?

9/17/2006 8:54:57 PM

Quote :

" Less than 1% of all gun homicides involve innocent bystanders.158 Sherman, Steele, Laufersweiler, Hoffer and Julian, “Stray bullets and ‘mushrooms’”, 1989, Journal of Quantitative Criminology About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.159 And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year. C. Cramer, and D. Kopel "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws”. Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994 "

gunfacts.info

may be biased, but everything is referenced.

9/17/2006 9:11:11 PM

point is, I don't know you and I still don't want you to have a gun around me.

Specially if you have a cowboy mentality.

9/17/2006 10:56:55 PM

OK, so you "don't want me" to have a gun around you.

Is that sufficient basis for enacting laws to prevent me from doing so, though?

9/17/2006 11:35:03 PM

Quote :

"may be biased, but everything is referenced."

I can believe it. Cops often just spray.

11% of police shooting kill an innocent, though? Considering how often folks survive wounds from handguns, that means far more innocents must get hit. Or police are especially good at killing innocent people.

9/18/2006 12:02:03 AM

I'll venture that police are a little more likely to be going into more crowded situations, though—wading into a sea of random people surrounding a target tends to make for more blue-on-blues.

Then again, if you've ever seen the inside of a police shooting range...

9/18/2006 12:55:12 AM

Quote :

"SU16C and a red dot. GTG."

I will always say that a folding stock AK chambered in 7.62x39 is the ultimate vehicle carry weapon. With it go 4 loaded mags in a mag pouch

The various .223 carbines out there are neat, but the round penetrates poorly, a bad thing if you end up having to shoot through a bad guy's car door.

[Edited on September 18, 2006 at 8:58 AM. Reason : /]

9/18/2006 8:56:50 AM

^
lol...did you read about that case of the woman's breast implants stopping a bullet, post-glass?

Yeah, I guess at the ranges involved for defense/SHTF shooting, 5.56x45's ballistic advantages (versus 7.62x39) don't really matter. I hear that barrier penetration isn't a whole lot better with 7.62, though.

CX4 Storm is evil, guys...the VPC says so!

Geez, that weapon is hilariously awful, especially since it goes for like $500+.

9/18/2006 9:04:28 AM

I don't think guns should be permitted there are too many dumb asses that think they know what they are doing.

9/18/2006 9:09:06 AM

here we go with that attitude again

9/18/2006 10:06:17 AM

19 year old female comes to make that argument.

People shouldn't be allowed to vote either, by that argument.
Or drive.
Or make babies.

9/18/2006 10:17:05 AM

how about this

you can carry a gun, but no ammo.

9/18/2006 12:41:56 PM

as long as criminals had no ammo thats cool

9/18/2006 1:18:25 PM

Quote :

"People shouldn't be allowed to vote either, by that argument. Or drive. Or make babies."

+lol

9/18/2006 1:32:24 PM

that's called a logical fallacy

9/18/2006 1:48:46 PM

Quote :

"I'll venture that police are a little more likely to be going into more crowded situations, though—wading into a sea of random people surrounding a target tends to make for more blue-on-blues. Then again, if you've ever seen the inside of a police shooting range... "

I would be curious to see the specific examples also. Being a part of the crime as it occurs and taking a shot is different than responding to it from outside the area

But I also agree w/ the second part of your post....

9/18/2006 2:17:43 PM

Well, I'm just conjecturing about the first part of that. Police get called in to problems, probably in the open fairly often. Personal defense tends to be (if out in the public) somewhere secluded (how many people get violently mugged in a crowd?) or at home (duh). Cops have to show up and then figure out WTF is going on.

Add on that they're often pretty lousy shots, and you have a higher risk of hitting the wrong people.

Anyway, that's the logical chain I'm using. I don't have actual AARs or anything like that to cite, though.

9/18/2006 2:22:05 PM