Quote :

"A bar DOES NOT equal a public or common place..."

Of course it is. Your home, is not a public place. A bar, certainly is.

Quote :

"^and there are a lot more than 2 options for places to go that dont allow smoking"

When I quote a comment talking about a comprehensive list, and state that I followed the link, and I saw about 5 places, then you follow that up with a statement saying "there are a lot more than 2 options" right after I plainly stated the opposite, it makes me think of two 8 year olds arguing over dumb shit, only I'm not arguing back.

Quote :

"Aside from the dozens of bars just in the Raleigh area that have porches, ie outdoors, clean air..."

Sounds like problem solved, the smokers can go outside.

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 10:56 AM. Reason : a]

10/24/2006 10:53:49 AM

no it isn't

it is privately owned


if you don't like the rules that the owner has you're welcome to leave

goddamn you complain alot

10/24/2006 10:55:16 AM

I suppose a theater is a private place, and if the theater owner wants to allow people to yell fire (because he thinks it's funny) then he can allow that!

And just because something is privately owned doesn't mean it isn't a public place, you need to learn the difference before you offer your 0 cents on the subject matter.

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 10:58 AM. Reason : a]

10/24/2006 10:57:24 AM

Quote :

"Your home, is not a public place. A bar, certainly is."

public places dont have age limits you moron

and State409c, oh mr. king of "you still didnt answer my question"

how come you havent answered my question that asked if you worked in a bar or not?

course the answer is obviously no...if you did, you'd know a bar isnt a public place

but if you dont work in bars, omg, i thought there were so many people with no work experience that could only find work in bars???

Quote :

"I suppose a theater is a private place, and if the theater owner wants to allow people to yell fire (because he thinks it's funny) then he can allow that!"

worst.....analogy......ever

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:02 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 11:01:32 AM

privately owned, open to the public


their rules still apply


and the government should force them to make even more rules

10/24/2006 11:04:53 AM

I work in six different bars.

10/24/2006 11:07:51 AM

are you trying to blame hair loss on smoke?

10/24/2006 11:08:29 AM

Nah, I blame genetics for that.

10/24/2006 11:09:17 AM

Quote :

"it just seems that as a non smoker, you want to take away the freedoms of all smokers because of your erroneous reception of entitlement"

You know, this "erroneous reception of entitlement" can be extended to smokers that are too inconsiderate to accommodate the non-smokers as well.

You'd think that people would be intelligent enough to not smoke nowadays. If you have a nasty habit that harms yourself and others around you then you should accommodate the people that want to stay healthy, not the other way around. No, wait. All the non smokers should just flee the presence of all the smokers as they show up on the scene. Or better yet. The non smokers can all buy gas masks with the money they save by not buying cigarettes.

10/24/2006 11:14:18 AM

^i agree with many of those points if you're talking about a public place

but not if you're talking about a privately owned bar

btw lets ban drinking since its harmful to your liver

btw i shouldnt be forced to walk down the sidewalk and be exposed to automobile exhaust...and that shit IS in public...wheres the outrage?

ps move to NYC or Los Angeles...they banned smoking in public already

but this is tobacco road...quit your bitching

Quote :

"If you have a nasty habit that harms yourself and others around you then you should accommodate the people that want to stay healthy"

If you want to stay healthy...then why are you going out to bars

Last I checked they don't allow smoking in health food stores and restaurants

If you want to stay healthy

10/24/2006 11:17:21 AM

Quote :

"btw lets ban drinking since its harmful to your liver"

I'm game.

Quote :

"btw i shouldnt be forced to walk down the sidewalk and be exposed to automobile exhaust...and that **** IS in public...wheres the outrage?"

btw there are laws governing exhaust. Maybe you'd like to see all those laws repealed? Sure would cut down on the cost of getting my car inspected.

Quote :

"ps move to NYC or Los Angeles...they banned smoking in public already"

Maybe they are on to something.

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:25 AM. Reason : h]

10/24/2006 11:24:19 AM

Seriously though

If you are concerned about staying healthy

Then what the hell are you doing out at bars?

I think its very easy to not go out to a bar, instead of forcing other people to change

10/24/2006 11:25:18 AM

Quote :

"btw lets ban drinking since its harmful to your liver"

Drinking in moderation is infinitely less harmful than smoking in moderation.

Quote :

"Then what the hell are you doing out at bars?"

hanging with friends, meeting people, getting out of the house

You need better arguments than this.

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:26 AM. Reason : a]

10/24/2006 11:25:28 AM

Who said I am?

10/24/2006 11:25:54 AM

Quote :

"btw i shouldnt be forced to walk down the sidewalk and be exposed to automobile exhaust"

You're not forced to walk down the sidewalk. You can also buy a gas mask if you are concerned about it.

10/24/2006 11:26:49 AM

Quote :

"I'm game."

moderate drinking has been shown to have health benefits....and laws are already in place to discourage excesive drinking.

10/24/2006 11:27:06 AM

Quote :

"hanging with friends, meeting people, getting out of the house"

so according to you, your only option for getting out of the house is going to a bar and many peoples' only option for work is a bar

oh man you're lost

Quote :

"laws are already in place to discourage excesive drinking"

surgeon general warnings are in place to discourage smoking

Quote :

"You're not forced to walk down the sidewalk"

at least a sidewalk is a public place...unlike a bar

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:28 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 11:27:13 AM

Where did I say that you imbecile?

warning != law you imbecile.

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:28 AM. Reason : a]

10/24/2006 11:27:52 AM

you've been imbecilic this entire thread

your analogies have been horrible

you call anything you want a public or private place

a members only nightclub to you would probably be considered a public place

10/24/2006 11:29:09 AM

Quote :

"surgeon general warnings are in place to discourage smoking "

thats not a law. thats a warning. bars can get in legal trouble for serving people excesive amounts of alcohol.

10/24/2006 11:29:59 AM

Quote :

"moderate drinking has been shown to have health benefits"

how many people that you know go to bars for "one glass of wine" which is about the limit of alcohol that has been proven to have health benefits

"moderate drinking" according to health studies does not equal 5 beers and 2 shots

let alone implying that going to a bar for a little moderate drinking should be beneficial to your health

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:32 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 11:31:08 AM

Well, TreeTwista just went stupid on us again.

I'm done with this thread.

10/24/2006 11:32:38 AM

done with your own thread?

good, it was fucking dumb to begin with

maybe you can take 5 and take a breather and try and realize that a bar isnt a public place and if you want to be healthy you shouldnt go out to bars

thats a start for you at least

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:33 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 11:33:09 AM

Quote :

"how many people do you know go to bars for "one glass of wine" which is about the limit of alcohol that has been proven to have health benefits "

first off, health benefits are not limited to one glass of wine. check your facts again.

secondly, i know plenty of people, including myself that go to bars for a drink or two. im past the point in my life where i need to drink in excess everytime i go out to a bar.

10/24/2006 11:33:26 AM

Quote :

"im past the point in my life where i need to drink in excess everytime i go out to a bar. "

but you need to go out to bars

havent gotten past that point yet have you

[Edited on October 24, 2006 at 11:35 AM. Reason : .]

10/24/2006 11:34:11 AM

i answered your question. im not going to play your semantic games.

10/24/2006 11:35:39 AM

thats fine

it just seems if i was concerned about my health and didnt want to be exposed to cigarette smoke, i would use my freedom of choice to not frequent the privately owned establishments that allow smoking and would instead hang around places that were non-smoking...i would make that choice instead of mandating something on everyone because i didnt like their smoking

Quote :

"Well, TreeTwista just went stupid on us again. I'm done with this thread."

Its too bad you can't intelligently argue this issue and made the choice to leave the thread

10/24/2006 11:39:46 AM

bttt somebody please debate this shit since i'm a moron incapable of winning an argument yet somehow i pwnt this whole thread

10/24/2006 1:16:08 PM

Quote :

"if a bar or restaurant wants to be a non-smoking establishment then let them but the government has no business passing laws about it"

Exactamundo. If the government has a dog in this fight, it's making sure everybody is internalizing the full cost of smoking. For example, a bar owner should be liable if his employees get sick as a result of the smoke. Customers should be able to easily identify whether an establishment is smoke free so that they can more easily vote with their wallet.

10/24/2006 1:21:43 PM

Quote :

"Well, TreeTwista just went stupid on us again. I'm done with this thread."

Total cop out by State409c.

10/24/2006 1:44:10 PM

Quote :

"I saw the link, and it indeed was about 5 places. "

You would think someone in college would know how to use the intarnets:

http://www.main.nc.us/gasp/guide.htm#Raleigh
http://www.smokefreeworld.com/nc.shtml
if you happen to be in orange county: http://www.co.orange.nc.us/health/smoke-free.htm
in durham? http://www.durham-nc.com/dining/breatheeasy.php

Enough choices for you?

Quote :

"Even the good ones don't work very well. "

You could have concerned employees wear masks.

Quote :

"So, a miner that has to have a job to survive should be forced to sign a waver stating that there are no safety inspections and he has a risk of dying because of it? "

Because a miner in a mining town and a waitress at Rockola are so very much alike. As is the difference between a safety inspection for non-obvious dangers and the very obvious existance of smoke in a bar.

Quote :

"Are you kidding, or just grasping for straws? "

I am not kidding. A bar is a private establishment, who may permit or deny entry to any one for any reason. Contrast this to your local park.

Quote :

"This is pretty moronic, you gotta admit."

How so? How is asking you to take your lazy ass down the block to a smoke free establishment any different from you asking a minister to change the channel instead of demanding that howard stern be off the air?

Quote :

"Sounds like problem solved, the smokers can go outside. "

Why can't the non smokers go outside? Why can't the workers wear masks?

Quote :

"I suppose a theater is a private place, and if the theater owner wants to allow people to yell fire (because he thinks it's funny) then he can allow that! "

Provided that his employees and customers are warned that such an occurance my happen, I would be willing to bet he would be well within the law to do so until such time as a patron dies or is injured from such an event and then sues.

Quote :

"And just because something is privately owned doesn't mean it isn't a public place, you need to learn the difference before you offer your 0 cents on the subject matter. "

Perhaps you need to take your own advice:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_place

Quote :

"You know, this "erroneous reception of entitlement" can be extended to smokers that are too inconsiderate to accommodate the non-smokers as well. "

Perhaps, but if a bar owner so chooses to allow smoking, you are the patron and can take it up with him, but in the end, it's his decision.

Quote :

"hanging with friends, meeting people, getting out of the house "

All things possible to do someplace other than a bar, or at non smoking bars.

Quote :

"You're not forced to walk down the sidewalk work at or patronize a bar or restraunt. You can also buy a gas mask if you are concerned about it."

Quote :

"bars can get in legal trouble for serving people excesive amounts of alcohol."

Another failing of our legal system

10/24/2006 8:43:47 PM

Quote :

"See link above, and I know that's not even close to a comprehensive list."

Dude, don't lecture me about where to go out in Raleigh. I lived there for nine years, I lived downtown, I've eaten and gone out all over the area (including most of the places on that list). Get over yourself. There is already a dearth of nightlife and restaurants -- and narrowing the list by smoking criteria is ridiculous.

Quote :

"But the air inside a bar is no more the commons than the air inside your home."

OK -- here we go with the "any kind of regulation is automatically wrong" shit. How can you even start to have this conversation with this mentality?

I'm not saying the government has the rights to regulate every square inch of some bar owner's establishment, but they do have some legitimate interest. I'm fine with health inspectors. I'm fine with (most) basic labor laws. I'm fine with the smoking ban.

Quote :

" If you care that much about your kids health, perhaps you shouldn't be taking them out to eat in the first place."

(seriously)

Quote :

"Two options are still options. Your failure to exercise your freedom of choice is no different than the conservative idiots who demand that everything on TV be sanatized to their liking rather than change the station."

Uhm, first of all, there's nothing wrong with sanitizing TV. TV is a commons; that's why we have an FCC. Networks buy limited bandwidth and hold a government-sanctioned monopoly over it. It's quite OK with me that I don't see double-fisting dirty whores on prime-time ABC.

But as to smoking (which has something to do with this conversation) -- the government isn't enforcing some ivory tower, anti-market ideology by banning smoking. They're just imposing community standards on businesses.

Businesses have options, too. Don't like California's smoking ban? Don't do business here. It's called federalism for a reason. States get to choose what they like and what they don't like -- and last I checked, smoking inside a restaurant wasn't an inalienable right.

10/25/2006 3:38:54 AM

Quote :

"A bar != the commons Why do some of you people who are for this ban think you have the right to be able to go into a private business and dictate their policies?"

Because government does have that right. Have you perchance spent much time working in a business? There are lots of regulations. Guess why? Government has the right to regulate business practices.

A single bar is not a commons. The entire restaurant industry in a state is. We're talking about people who have literally no choice in atmosphere when they go out (excuse me, unless you go to Caffe Luna every night -- their pasta is fine, but they are closed half the week).

Quote :

"Aside from the dozens of bars just in the Raleigh area that have porches, ie outdoors, clean air...there are plenty of places that don't allow smoking...aside from just fast food restaurants, you have sandwich shops, etc...it just seems that as a non smoker, you want to take away the freedoms of all smokers because of your erroneous reception of entitlement"

Smoking is a privilege, not a right -- people who smoke are hurting everyone around them. And not in a minor way. It's not speech, it's a physical thing.

Would you argue that a bar owner should allow people to brawl and kill each other if he so chooses, and they consent? Hey, let's have some killing clubs -- you don't have to go to them, after all!

Quote :

" by your rationale, a strip club must be public nudity"

Why don't you ask the city zoning committees when they decide where the strip clubs are? You think maybe it's some kind of accident that cities have "red light districts?"

10/25/2006 3:51:41 AM

Quote :

"Enough choices for you?"

No, most of those places are crap. The gasp list itself is full of fast food joints.

Oh, and by the way, it's full of shit, too. I see the Third Place is listed. Oh, right -- I only went there for six years. You have to walk through a thick cloud of smoke just to get in the door. Sure, once you're inside you're OK.

Just what I like to see -- a diversity of Burger Kings and Taco Bells! And some places that kinda-sorta don't like smoking!

10/25/2006 3:55:13 AM

Quote :

"We're talking about people who have literally no choice in atmosphere when they go out (excuse me, unless you go to Caffe Luna every night -- their pasta is fine, but they are closed half the week)."

A lot of resturants are non-smoking, and if you're that much of a baby, you probably wouldn't like being in a bar or club anyways.

Quote :

"people who smoke are hurting everyone around them"

So are people who drive cars.

Quote :

"And not in a minor way"

How many people have died from second hand smoke?

Quote :

"Would you argue that a bar owner should allow people to brawl and kill each other if he so chooses, and they consent?"

Strawman. It's more like outlawing pool at bars simply because a few people don't like it.

10/25/2006 8:47:05 AM

^Kris FTW

10/25/2006 9:04:08 AM

Quote :

"Would you argue that a bar owner should allow people to brawl..."

I think they do... don't some bars have mud wrestling?

10/25/2006 9:28:27 AM

Quote :

"Smoking is a privilege, not a right "

Once you're 18 years old, its a right

10/25/2006 9:31:42 AM

Quote :

"if you're that much of a baby, you probably wouldn't like being in a bar or club anyways. "

that's nonsense. you're just making stuff. thats like me saying, "if you're dumb enough to smoke, then you're not smart enough to be having this debate."

Quote :

"So are people who drive cars."

car wrecks are called accidents for a reason. very few people mean to actually have an accident. smoking is a concious choice people make....its no accident. can you really not see the difference?

Quote :

"How many people have died from second hand smoke?"

i dont know, but studies have shown the 2nd hand smoke is harmful....do we really need to wait until someone dies?

Quote :

"Strawman. It's more like outlawing pool at bars simply because a few people don't like it."

that too is a ridiculous camparison. pool does not effect the health of others. smoking does.


as smoker4 has already pointed out, the government has every right to ban smoking...and some local governments already have. smoking in bars is not a right.

[Edited on October 25, 2006 at 9:33 AM. Reason : df]

10/25/2006 9:33:21 AM

Quote :

"It's more like outlawing pool at bars simply because a few people don't like it."

I know a friend of a friend of a friend that got cancer from second hand pool.

10/25/2006 9:48:58 AM

Quote :

"So are people who drive cars."

Not to mention, yet again (as with the counter arguments of crab fishers and longshoremen), the manufacturing, purchasing, and operation of cars is highly regulated by the government to make it as safe as reasonably possible to the car operators and those around them.

10/25/2006 9:51:42 AM

Quote :

"i dont know, but studies have shown the 2nd hand smoke is harmful....do we really need to wait until someone dies? "

Yes, we do. Unfortunately, you can and should put a price on life. Even if it is simply a slight inconvenience for many, we shouldn't bother with it unless the problem is significant. I mean, if we didn't allow children to ride bikes, we could prevent the many deaths attributable to bike riding, right? But is it worth doing that?

Smokers don't intentionally cause cancer in those around them, either. So I think it is comparable to use of automobiles. Accidents aren't the only harmful side effect of driving cars. The emissions, while regulated, are still as deadly as second hand smoke.

10/25/2006 10:02:32 AM

Quote :

" you can and should put a price on life. Even if it is simply a slight inconvenience"

i agree, and since not smoking in a bar is such a slight inconvinience, smokers should have no problems with going outside. someones health is far more important then feeding an addiction.

Quote :

"Smokers don't intentionally cause cancer in those around them, either."

yes, they do. theres enough information out there so that every smokers knows thats its bad for themselves and others. people do not intentionaly get in accidents (expect for those breaking the law), while people do intentionaly smoke cigs. of course smokers don't try to give people cancer, but they know the risks to them around them, and yet they still do it.

Quote :

"The emissions, while regulated, are still as deadly as second hand smoke."

thats correct....thats why you arent allowed to run your car inside a bar/restaurant. smoking should be the same way.



[Edited on October 25, 2006 at 10:12 AM. Reason : f]

10/25/2006 10:09:44 AM

If I didn't want to be around smoke, I would use my ability to make choices and decisions and not go to bars that allow smoking instead of claiming the government should step in to infringe on peoples' freedoms

10/25/2006 10:15:00 AM

give me a break. you had no problem a month ago saying that the government has every right to listen in on people's phone calls, despite their right for privacy, because it may save the lives of americans. so don't give me your "the government shouldn't infringe on peoples rights" bullshit.

10/25/2006 10:19:22 AM

Quote :

"yes, they do. theres enough information out there so that every smokers knows thats its bad for themselves and others"

There's also plenty of evidence that car accidents are frequent and dangerous, yet people still choose to drive cars. Plus, there isn't a whole lot of evidence that smoking causes cancer to those around you. It probably does increase the risk, but so does walking outside in the sun. You have to quantify shit before I get upset.

Also, you make a good point that you aren't allowed to run a car inside at a bar, but is there actually a law that disallows this? I know plenty of bars that allow motorcycles to run in them.

10/25/2006 10:25:24 AM

Quote :

"i agree, and since not smoking in a bar is such a slight inconvinience, smokers should have no problems with going outside. someones health is far more important then feeding an addiction. "

It's not a question of importance or convinience, it's about having the freedom of choice. Bar owners have the option to open a non-smoking bar, but many don't because it isn't in their best interests. McDonald's had the choice ten years ago or so to make their restaraunts smoke-free and they did because it was profitable. The bottom line is that business owners and citizens don't need the government to make their decisions for them.

Times change and those little tinfoil ashtrays are gone from restaraunts because the population as a whole is making a more informed decision, but going to most bars is a lifestyle choice that will generally be associated with smoking in the near future.

10/25/2006 10:26:15 AM

^^^Wow, what a surprise that you're putting words in my mouth since I shut down your weak argument.

I said and still say that the government has the right to listen in on people's terrorist suspects' international phone calls. I know people like you who overestimate their self importance think the government gives a shit about your phone calls, but they don't. And this may sound like a wild concept, but monitoring the phone conversations of terrorists may actually save the lives of Americans.

Quote :

"smoking in bars is not a right."

Actually it is...case in point, you can go into a bar and smoke...but with those facts out of the way, what makes you so confident that having private phone conversations while using someone elses' circuits is a right?

The sheer hypocrisy of complaining about the health concerns of tobacco with your main defense that you should be able to go out and consume alcohol, which is a poison itself, is hilarious

Instead of adapting to society, you want society to adapt to you...arrogant much?

[Edited on October 25, 2006 at 10:31 AM. Reason : .]

10/25/2006 10:27:56 AM

Quote :

"There's also plenty of evidence that car accidents are frequent and dangerous, yet people still choose to drive cars. Plus, there isn't a whole lot of evidence that smoking causes cancer to those around you."

there are also plenty of times where driving has no effect on someone else. thats not the case with smoking. smoking isn't bad only some of the time, live driving. smoking is bad all of the time. thats the difference. besides, this isnt just about cancer...there are plenty of other health risks associated with smoking. you said the sun causes cancer...thats true, but its also been shown that the sun has health benefits. anything in excess is bad. smoking is bad even in moderation.

Quote :

" The bottom line is that business owners and citizens don't need the government to make their decisions for them."

that may be your opinion, but thats simply not reality. its already been pointed out in this thread that the government makes decisions for businesses all the time...this would be no different.

10/25/2006 10:34:20 AM

If you are worried about your health you might want to steer clear of bars

10/25/2006 10:35:25 AM