anyone have any statistics about ccp carryers? Accident rates, crimes, related deaths?

4/17/2007 10:03:39 AM

even the wiki link seems ok

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

good one here
http://www.azccw.com/More%20Facts%20&%20Statistics.htm

another
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pdcrm/pdcrm20.htm

another
http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/More_Permits_Means_Less_Crime.htm

another
http://polyticks.com/polyticks/beararms/liars/moreguns.htm

good one that shows ccw holders are less likely to commit crime
http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html

NRA links
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=2445
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/Articles/Read.aspx?id=6&issue=003


a good read
http://www.gunowners.org/vtcarry.htm





http://www.gunowners.org
http://www.grnc.org

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 10:25 AM. Reason : ]

4/17/2007 10:23:05 AM

other countries chime in:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18149774/

Quote :

"Most expressed shock at the shooting but few said they were surprised — criticizing the availability of guns in the United States, lax gun controls and the number of Americans who cling to the constitutional right that allows them to bear arms."

from the wiki gun law page above:

Quote :

"North Caorlina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. .Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI"

interesting.


[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 10:40 AM. Reason : .]

4/17/2007 10:34:23 AM

here we go



this kneejerk reaction is gonna be big


what they don't realize is that "bans" do nothing but drive prices up and make people like me buy more before it happens

^ yeah, I brought that up in another thread, a CCW holder is far less likely to commit a FELONY than a POLICE OFFICER

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason : but they get to have machine guns, etc etc]

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason : ok]

4/17/2007 10:40:34 AM

Quote :

"and the number of Americans who cling to the constitutional right that allows them to bear arms"

its a shame there appeared to only be one...no scratch that, zero Americans (since the shooter was Korean) who were bearing arms

4/17/2007 10:44:27 AM

^True.

Utah allows CCW on campus. I hope that NC and other states change to this standard. I've got guns, but I don't have a handgun because I can't have it on campus at school. If I could do some class training to be able to get a CCP though, I'd get it in a heartbeat. I'd rather be able to make some impact if a situation like this happened one on of my school campuses rather than being just another body on the pile. Now whether the local school board here would allow it is another matter, but I'd feel much better if we could. Hell the student resource officer doesn't even carry a gun on him.

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 10:55 AM. Reason : ]

4/17/2007 10:51:25 AM

I have a handgun, but no CCP because the restrictions on where you can and can't legally carry concealed make it pretty much worthless to me (not saying that it wouldn't be useful to some people, but not to me).

4/17/2007 11:02:02 AM

This thread has definitely brought some good points up, but the problem still remains that, until all the fuckhead politicians we have running this country learn to reason though problems, the knee-jerk will always prevail.

4/17/2007 12:36:30 PM

and the number of Americans who cling to the constitutional right that allows them to bear arms free speech

4/17/2007 1:01:17 PM

omg! outlaw VT, it is there fault this horrible act happened, if they hadn't admitted this student into their university he wouldn't have been on campus and this never would have happened...they are definately to blame!!!


geez, why is it so hard for people to understand that nothing will ever change, and no problems will ever be solved until everyone stops trying to place the blame on all the wrong things and actually focuses on something that will make a difference.

outlawing cars isn't the answer to stopping people from getting killed in car wrecks, outlawing planes isn't the answer to stopping terrorism and preventing plane crash deaths, and outlawing guns isn't the answer to stopping crazed maniacs from killing people

until people actually start facing the real issues and stop trying to find an easy solution that will not require them to see the real problem which is much deeper, acts like this will never stop!

4/17/2007 1:03:32 PM

Quote :

"2) The amount of stolen/lost weapons would skyrocket, effectively arming criminals. "

oh man this is a gem.

4/17/2007 1:03:35 PM

From the Roanoke Times, January 31, 2006:

Quote :

"A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.... Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.""

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 1:24 PM. Reason : .,.]

4/17/2007 1:23:33 PM

^I'm sure that everyone felt real safe knowing that nobody had the power to stop this guy from going on his rampage.

Quote :

"The amount of stolen/lost weapons would skyrocket, effectively arming criminals."

How are criminals not already (relatively) easily armed? Black market, anyone?

But what do I know, I'm one of those evil biased gun-owning rednecks.

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 1:42 PM. Reason : blah]

4/17/2007 1:40:26 PM

it's the gun toting rednecks that cause all the gun crime!!!!!!!

4/17/2007 2:23:13 PM

Quote :

"Your first mistake is assuming rationality. If anything, people who get concealed permits are probably less rational and are more paranoid than the average citizen, unless they have a specific reason (work in a bad neighborhood etc.) "

Steve we have met a few times. I have even purchased a firearm from you. Did I strike you as this type of person? I have a CCW. You should probally be more carefull with your assumptions. Not everyone or for that matter most CCW holders are paranoid "gun culture" types.



[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 2:28 PM. Reason : .........................................]

4/17/2007 2:24:39 PM

Hey man, I know that there are some rational people who get CCW permits. I just happen to believe that the proliferation of weapons in the public domain would be likely to cause more problems than it would solve in the long run. And even if guns were allowed on campus, theres no reason to believe any of the victims in yesterdays shootings would have had one on them.

4/17/2007 2:39:44 PM

But don't you realize that any gun laws and limitations and amendments you make to existing laws are not going to affect all the criminals who dont follow the current laws in the first place?

Are stricter requirements for obtaining medicinal marijuana going to somehow affect someone who has always bought it on the black market?

4/17/2007 2:43:40 PM

I admit that I don't necessarily need a CCW, or a gun for that matter. I bought one because a) my friends who owned guns introduced me to them, and I thought it'd be nice to own one myself, b) I think they're fascinating pieces of hardware, and c) I think that owning a gun has given me an appreciation for their power and danger. So it's not like I bought a gun for all the "right" reasons.

That said, it's not as if it's overwhelmingly simple to get a CCW permit, let alone a firearm. There's lots of loops to jump through, it costs a fair bit of money, and you have to demonstrate competency and proficiency. Not only do you have to demonstrate that you can properly operate the gun, you have to demonstrate that you are aware of all the laws and procedures surrounding them. If you fail to show this awareness, the powers that be won't let you own one. So you must necessarily know what you're talking about whenever you get a gun. And once you do own a gun, you are held to a much higher standard than those who do not own guns. If you waiver in the slightest, you lose the privilage.

My point? Let's not pretend like all people who own guns are somehow untrustworthy. Are they more dangerous? I guess that argument could be made. But if someone shows me their CCW I don't think I have anything to fear from that person.

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 2:45 PM. Reason : punctuation]

4/17/2007 2:44:23 PM

Quote :

"Hey man, I know that there are some rational people who get CCW permits. I just happen to believe that the proliferation of weapons in the public domain would be likely to cause more problems than it would solve in the long run. And even if guns were allowed on campus, theres no reason to believe any of the victims in yesterdays shootings would have had one on them"

I agree, but we're not going to get rid of guns, or bad people


there is no guarantee at all


but it's always better to have something and not need it rather than to need it and not have it

I'm sure all these people wanted at least a chance to stop this mad man


I understand that some folks have never been exposed to violence... some of us have, it sucks and it's the most helpless feeling you can have when your hands are empty

but violence and bad people are real... I'm glad that it hasn't happened in some of you peoples shiny beacon of goodness neighborhood/mansion/ or palace... but there are people that get raped, murdered, and attacked everyday by horrible people... it's a shame that this happens in vain while others sit back and want more laws passed that makes things even worse for people.

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

4/17/2007 2:45:30 PM

Quote :

"proliferation of weapons in the public domain would be likely to cause more problems than it would solve in the long run."

Agreed

The argument is not to arm all or even the majority of the population. If you have proven to be compentent by the governing body to carry a firearm then you shold be granted that option. To not be allowed to carry infringes on my right to defend myself. Everyone has a choice. It is not manditory for CCW holders to carry all the time,everywhere they go. Nore should it be.
I do believe that one armed citizen could have made a diffrence @ VT. At the minimum give the staff the option and responsibility of carrying a firearm to school with them.

Quote :

"but it's always better to have something and not need it rather than to need it and not have it I'm sure all these people wanted at least a chance to stop this mad man "

Well said.

My thoughts are with the VT families and friends

4/17/2007 3:09:03 PM

Quote :

"I just happen to believe that the proliferation of weapons in the public domain would be likely to cause more problems than it would solve in the long run"

That's fine if you want to believe that.

But then there's those of us who operate on facts rather than assumptions and perception.

4/17/2007 3:18:02 PM

What would your facts be?

I also support people in being able to defend themselves. But the goal is to immobilize or incapacitate your attacker, not kill them. Somehow in our society we have equated that causing death is the only reasonable response to a physical threat. If deadly force is necessary, so be it. But when idiots like John Edward's neighbor pulls a gun on utility crews checking out a public right of way, it just shows that people take the threat of deadly force too lightly.

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 3:33 PM. Reason : .]

4/17/2007 3:21:57 PM

well, for one

Quote :

""North Caorlina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. .Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI""

compared with your assertion based on nothing but an assumption

Quote :

"If anything, people who get concealed permits are probably less rational and are more paranoid than the average citizen, unless they have a specific reason (work in a bad neighborhood etc.)"

and FWIW, i don't own a gun, and haven't ever actually fired a gun for that matter.

4/17/2007 3:25:38 PM

if you'd like to shoot sometime

I'd be happy to take you


I'm willing to teach anyone that wants to learn... just needs to be in small groups, I don't want to be around more than one or two gun noobs trying to teach them on my own.

safety first

4/17/2007 3:35:47 PM

^ i would take you up on that if i wasn't terrified of guns.

4/17/2007 4:13:05 PM

nothing to be terrified of...i used to go shooting about 3-4 times a week. It's a lot of fun and very safe.

4/17/2007 4:17:07 PM

nothing to be terrified of

none of my firearms have ever discharged without having the trigger pulled first

4/17/2007 4:21:18 PM

Dear idiot who started this thread...

Drugs are banned...

Q:how many people do you know that can get drugs if they want them?
A: everyone who really wants them

now... apply this fact to guns

you don't want to make people have to break the law to get guns... cause they will.

4/17/2007 4:22:19 PM

What are you talking about?

Recreational drugs are illegal. Therefore recreational drugs don't exit. QED.

Let's ban guns. Then we can have a society that is drug free and safe.

4/17/2007 6:13:29 PM

Quote :

"Recreational drugs are illegal. Therefore recreational drugs don't exit. QED. "

4/17/2007 6:17:12 PM

the gun laws are fine as they are. This situation shouldn't be used to create more and it shouldn't be used to slacken the current ones.

4/17/2007 6:39:19 PM

Am I the only one that caught onto the obvious trolling in the OP?

4/17/2007 7:07:39 PM

I really hope not.

The dude was the SB's Libertarian before Libertarianism was cool.

4/17/2007 7:09:41 PM

no, you weren't.

4/17/2007 7:10:43 PM

Lets not forget that the assault weapons ban (politically named) did not set limits on ownership, just on manufacturers, and magazine's with higher capacity could have still been bought made before 1994. Not that any of this would have mattered, however, since the shooter had several magazines and appeared to be fluent with handguns.

Also, in a supreme court case, it has been decided that law enforcement is not required to run in and save you in such a situation. Given this, and the fact that they could not get to the scene in time due to locked doors, nature of quick assault, etc this is more of an example of why CCP was provided for in the first place.

As long as criminals have access to such weapons, and the need to defend yourself lies totally with the individual, an individual has the right to defend themselves.

4/17/2007 7:26:06 PM

I admit to trolling and using strawmen in this thread, but in my defense, I made it very obvious and did so only to raise a salient point.

4/17/2007 7:26:32 PM

^^Site the fucking supreme court case

4/17/2007 7:28:44 PM

I just hate it that this situation has provided and will continue to provide no absolution or easy answers whatsoever.

It's my honest opinion--and I think a sad truth--that there might not be any new lessons or living culpable parties in this.

[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 7:33 PM. Reason : ...]

4/17/2007 7:32:54 PM

if they removed the clause prohibiting guns on campuses wouldnt they still be prohibited because it is a place of assembly? (or is that why they are prohibited)

that being said, i dont think there should be a special exception for universities and colleges that make their laws different from state and county laws. there also seems to be a problem in responses that keep getting made that only one or two people started to point out. people counter "anti-gun control" positions by saying that more people with guns will cause more problems. i dont see how expanding the concealed carry would suddenly create a proliferation of handguns.

4/17/2007 7:54:46 PM

Quote :

"Site"

4/17/2007 7:56:49 PM

Guys obviously, it's the gun control laws fault,, this shit at VT tech ever happened. I mean, god, if we took away guns and such, no one would ever have a chance of killing mass amounts of people in public. Death would basically be averted and we'd have aeons of peace throughout the galaxy.

Also we could've beefed up security, yah that's right, we need like infinite amounts of security everywhere, if you're not someone with a security badge on you might be a terrorist looking to kill students.

4/17/2007 8:00:58 PM

^history says otherwise. Since you're captain obvious I won't burden you with the details.

4/17/2007 8:51:04 PM

Wow brings it to me even more that the faculty member was a computer tech for the school, as thats the same shit I do.

I really think they should give faculty and students of the proper age the right. Hell in NC you can't have a handgun permit or CCP until you are 21. So most students in high school and college would never be affected. And by no means do I want all teachers armed or some shit. Most in my schools are dumbshits and I'd be scared to death if they tried to fire a gun. But the deterrent capability would be nice. Hell our student resource officer doesn't even carry a gun on campus.

4/17/2007 9:24:57 PM

Quote :

""I think if this does prompt a serious and reflective debate on gun issues and gun law in the States, then some good may come from this woeful tragedy," said British Home Office Minister Tony McNulty, who graduated in 1982. Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded 590 homicides last year."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_eu/virginia_tech_world_view



[Edited on April 17, 2007 at 9:48 PM. Reason : .]

4/17/2007 9:47:52 PM

Quote :

"^^Site the fucking supreme court case"

I thought this was common knowledge to anyone with a passing interest in defense laws but I guess not. FYI:

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/CopsDontProtect.htm

http://home.pacbell.net/dragon13/policeprot.html

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html

Each page provides plenty of cases for your entertainment.

Quote :

"Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded 590 homicides last year."

Ok, how many of those 590 homicides were comitted with firearms?

Some information on England's homicides and gun crimes, including the 700+ homicides last year:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/2877/

4/17/2007 10:02:28 PM

Quote :

"The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2005, 477,040 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm "

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

4/17/2007 10:20:37 PM

I would also assume attempted murders and assault with intent to kill would be at least double murder rate

4/17/2007 11:00:27 PM

Quote :

"^^Site the fucking supreme court case"

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/CopsDontProtect.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~mdean/immunity.html
http://supreme.justia.com/us/59/396/index.html

Anything else you "fucking" want? The last one is direct link to the official case and the opinion.

4/17/2007 11:33:20 PM

thats nice you can find how many people were murdered in New York

how many of those murders could have been prevented if people were ALLOWED TO OWN A GUN IN THAT CITY

and I'm not too concerned with the British opinion of our gun laws



all your "stats" show is that people in England kill each other anyway and that the only people armed and shooting others in NYC happen to be criminals already committing a felony against a person that may very well be unarmed


GOOD JOB

[Edited on April 18, 2007 at 1:43 AM. Reason : ertedrhgdnbdfhb]

4/18/2007 1:42:34 AM

Quote :

"Most convicted criminals with guns admit their guns are either stolen or were bought on the black market. "Why I'm gonna waste my time in a store when I can get a gun on the street?"

4/18/2007 2:33:22 AM