no but i really wish the holocaust would be accurately depicted, as opposed to its current portrayal as a crime against the jewish people. go ask 10 people how many people died in the holocaust and who was killed in the holocaust. most of them will say the jews were killed and not mention anyone else, and also most of those who respond with that will say that 6 million people died in the holocaust when it was actually more like 15 million. The jewish population made up less than half the deaths. Therefore the most common depiction of the holocaust--most of which is a result of how its taught-- is not an accurate view of history. This cannot be denied.

5million Russian deaths, 3 million Ukrainian deaths and 1.5 million Belarusian deaths. Those crimes were racially motivated, but when do they get their sympathy?

5/25/2007 11:40:33 AM

Where are you getting those numbers?

5/25/2007 11:58:50 AM

Quote :

"you're an idiot. first of all i'm jewish so you really can't call me bigoted on this issue. "

Yes I can after you made posts in this thread questioning the Holocoust, calling Israel names, and saying that your kind of Jews are "more jewish" than my kind of Jews.

Quote :

" secondly saying that it was exaggerated isn't fence sitting at all."

It is when you combine that statement with everything else you said in this thread. When you make repeated posts in this thread questioning whether my ancestors were really killed by the Germans and than say that you believe the Holocoust was greatly exegerated, it does make you a fence sitter and an intellectual coward

Quote :

" I don't think that it was a hoax, and believe that the germans did kill many many jews, and yes they committed genocide. but what i focus more on are the millions of other people who were killed that out number the jewish deaths yet get no recognition. not even at the holocaust museum. i'm sorry dude, but thats just not right."

Funny how you used several posts in this thread to question whether 6 million Jewish people including my ancestors really did die in the Holocaust but did a complete 180 on your story as soon as I called you out on your fence sitting.

Quote :

" can you some how warrant why jewish people get all the sympathy while its neglected from everyone else. "

Actually, yes I can.
1) The Nazis hated Jews more than any other group of people, and made the Jews the target of their "final solution".
2) All the other peoples you mentioned who were killed -- Russians, Ukranians, etc, had their own countries, or at least Soviet republics where they were the majority and no one persecuted them for their ethnicity. Jews, on the other hand, have been a minority wherever we lived, and have been persecuted brutally throughout our history. You've got the Inquisition, Jews not being allowed to own land at a time when most people made a living through agriculture, Jews being exiled from multiple European countries, pogroms in Russia, and, of course, the Holocoust. To this day anti-semetism is very much alive throughout Europe, Jews in Saudi Arabia cannot get passports, and Iranian president Mahmud Ahmadinejad is trying to build nuclear weapons in order to destroy the nation of Israel.
3) Where are you getting those numbers anyway?

[Edited on May 25, 2007 at 12:10 PM. Reason : .]

5/25/2007 12:09:17 PM

Quote :

"All the other peoples you mentioned who were killed -- Russians, Ukranians, etc, had their own countries, or at least Soviet republics where they were the majority and no one persecuted them for their ethnicity. Jews, on the other hand, have been a minority wherever we lived, and have been persecuted brutally throughout our history."

what about the roma?

[Edited on May 25, 2007 at 12:11 PM. Reason : .]

5/25/2007 12:11:07 PM

All 200k of them?

[Edited on May 25, 2007 at 1:08 PM. Reason : ps, you visited wikipedia to look up the numbers, and saw the big section on roma. ]

5/25/2007 1:07:35 PM

no actually i didn't. i learned about ww2 in high school. (though often i do utilize wikipedia). . .

i just don't like blanket statements like the one that he made.

5/25/2007 1:22:11 PM

Quote :

"It is when you combine that statement with everything else you said in this thread. When you make repeated posts in this thread questioning whether my ancestors were really killed by the Germans and than say that you believe the Holocoust was greatly exegerated, it does make you a fence sitter and an intellectual coward"

actually, no it doesn't. If you want to make that claim please explain with supporting statements how that makes it so as opposed to when i say it doesn't make me a fence sitter and you just reply back with something that is on par with "uh huh yeah it does".

I questioned if your ancestors were actually killed or not and if the numbers were exaggerated or not, yes, but i fail to see how that makes me a fence sitter or an intellectual coward. the way i see it this shows that i clearly believe that a holocaust took place but not to the degree as has been reported. Questioning your ancestors deaths goes along with my belief that the numbers could be exaggerated. If anything, everything i have said is me clearly sticking to my guns. Questioning something is not fence sitting. perhaps had i said "i dont know it could be either way. maybe it didnt happen, but then again maybe it didn't." I never claimed that it didn't happen at all, i just don't agree with the way that it has been reported. once again, please clarify for me and everyone else how this is fence sitting and makes me an intellectual coward. don't forget to address both.

Quote :

"Yes I can after you made posts in this thread questioning the Holocoust, calling Israel names, and saying that your kind of Jews are "more jewish" than my kind of Jews. "

No you can't, and you are clearly narrow minded and quite biased. I called Israel a zionist regime, yes. I did this because zionism, which is a big part of israel, was a secular movement not a religious one. Additionally we cannot bring ourselves out of exile so me disagreeing with the establishment of israel in no way makes me bigoted but rather a person who adheres to doctrine more than most. I have also suggested that israel is very racist in their practices and if you don't recognize that then its really not worth discussing with you because you are blind to everything. I will go into detail regarding the racism of israel with you on one with you via PM if you wish. Additionally we are more jewish than your type of jew. how could you even debate that? we are MIDDLE EASTERN. Where was israel during its existence? The MIDDLE EAST. Last time i checked it wasn't in spain, germany, austria, france, the ukraine, etc.... You're a Caucasian following a religion. I, sir, am a Jew. Anything else you want me to say?

Quote :

"Funny how you used several posts in this thread to question whether 6 million Jewish people including my ancestors really did die in the Holocaust but did a complete 180 on your story as soon as I called you out on your fence sitting."

What 180? I never said i thought ti was a hoax. I've said from the start i think it happened but not to the degree reported. how many more times must i continue to say this before you recognize that and stop reading what you what to see. in your statement you suggested that even if it was only 1 million wouldn't that still be genocide. in my statement i was agreeing that the germans did kill many jews (1-3million is probably right) and that yes that would still be genocide. Perhaps you shouldn't let your bias get in the way of sound reasoning and reading comprehension. But if you still feel its an 180, just explain it to me in detail. You know, with supporting reasons and not blanket statements.

Quote :

"1) The Nazis hated Jews more than any other group of people, and made the Jews the target of their "final solution"."

the final solution was him removing them from germany. Death was one means yes. But the final solution was to get rid of the jews in germany. The nazis even reached out to some british and american jews to have the jews deported to their lands, however the jewish community chose not to do this so death was the end. I don't remember the exact quote but one rabbi said something along the lines of he rather see millions of jews dead than jews not living in palestine. I'll look that up and send it to you personally through PM.

Also Ahmadinejad is not building nukes to destroy israel. how can you be that dense? first hand if you're going to cite his letter the translation you'll probably use is a poor one. He never said israel needs to be wiped off the map, but rather that their regime needed to end just as many of the tyrannical iran regimes of the past needed to end. Not once has he mentioned killing and destorying israel. second of all, do you think they're that stupid? if they nuked israel their country woudl be gone in a moment. I'm sorry, but be logical about this. What person thirsting for power is going to do an end game action right off the bat? No one. within moments of the first nuke hitting israel the us, uk, and other countries would have nukes on the way to land in Iran.

My advice to you, think next time before you post and try to have an open mind.

let me add something for you that you'll recognize.



[Edited on May 25, 2007 at 3:03 PM. Reason : photo]

5/25/2007 2:58:04 PM

Quote :

"actually, no it doesn't. If you want to make that claim please explain with supporting statements how that makes it so as opposed to when i say it doesn't make me a fence sitter and you just reply back with something that is on par with "uh huh yeah it does". I questioned if your ancestors were actually killed or not and if the numbers were exaggerated or not, yes, but i fail to see how that makes me a fence sitter or an intellectual coward. the way i see it this shows that i clearly believe that a holocaust took place but not to the degree as has been reported. Questioning your ancestors deaths goes along with my belief that the numbers could be exaggerated. If anything, everything i have said is me clearly sticking to my guns. Questioning something is not fence sitting. perhaps had i said "i dont know it could be either way. maybe it didnt happen, but then again maybe it didn't." I never claimed that it didn't happen at all, i just don't agree with the way that it has been reported. once again, please clarify for me and everyone else how this is fence sitting and makes me an intellectual coward. don't forget to address both."

I still maintain that you are a bigot and a fence sitter. First, let me explain the "bigot" part. You claim to be a Jew yet you question the historical facts of the holocaust. This is akin to a chicken questioning the fact that a place called KFC exists. Thus the fact that you are questioning the historical facts of the holocaust indicate that you are either very naive or you don't identify yourself with the same group of people that I belong to and, therefore, think you are immune from the same type of persecution that caused 6 million people like me to be killed... and -- let's face it -- the statements you made so far in this thread strongly indicate the latter. "But Alex", you say, "the fact that I don't consider myself part of the same group of people as you doesn't mean that I hate this group." No it doesn't, but the fact that you're questioning the holocaust does. The evidence for holocaust is far too great for any rational skeptic to come to the conclusion that it did not happen or that it did happen, but the events have been greatly exegerated as you believe. People who don't believe the story of the holocaust are people who don't want to believe this story, so they pick and chose facts that fit in with their preconceived notions while ignoring ones that don't.

Now, as far as the fence sitter part goes, again, no one questions the holocaust out of rational skepticism. The impression I get of you is that you hate "my type" of Jews enough to hold preconceived notions about us and to distort facts to fit those preconceived notions and form conspiracy theories based on those notions, but you don't have the balls to go all out like salisburyboy and flat out deny that the holocaust took place. So you pick a nice, safe, middle of the road kind of view.

Quote :

"What 180?"

You went from questioning the number 6 million to saying that you agree that 6 million Jews did die but your problem is gentiles who died aren't getting the same recognition.

Quote :

"the final solution was him removing them from germany. Death was one means yes. But the final solution was to get rid of the jews in germany."

Colonel Sanders never said he wants to kill chickens. He only said that when the meat of chickens is covered in batter, fried, and eaten, it tastes delicious.

Quote :

"The nazis even reached out to some british and american jews to have the jews deported to their lands, however the jewish community chose not to do this so death was the end. I don't remember the exact quote but one rabbi said something along the lines of he rather see millions of jews dead than jews not living in palestine. I'll look that up and send it to you personally through PM. "

I'd like to see some sources on all of this.

Quote :

"Also Ahmadinejad is not building nukes to destroy israel. how can you be that dense? "

He said Israel should be destroyed, and he's starting a nuclear program in his country. Nuff said!

Quote :

"first hand if you're going to cite his letter the translation you'll probably use is a poor one. He never said israel needs to be wiped off the map, but rather that their regime needed to end just as many of the tyrannical iran regimes of the past needed to end. Not once has he mentioned killing and destorying israel."

No, Ahmadinejad doesn't hate the Jewish people. He just thinks that they are using "the fairy tale of Holocaust" to hold the entirety of Europe hostage, and to get away with "killing children and women and making innocent people homeless." Oh, and after saying all this in his public speaches over and over again he has started a nuclear program in his country. No, he doesn't really want to kill Jews. Should I use my KFC analogy again?

Source: http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=78985
(See, unlike you, I site sources)

Quote :

"second of all, do you think they're that stupid? if they nuked israel their country woudl be gone in a moment. I'm sorry, but be logical about this. What person thirsting for power is going to do an end game action right off the bat? No one. within moments of the first nuke hitting israel the us, uk, and other countries would have nukes on the way to land in Iran. [/qutoe] He may not be that stupid, but he does seem that fanatical. I mean the fact that he is continuing on with his nuclear program despite embargos and the threat of military action against his people shows that he values the destruction of Israel more than the well being of his own people and possibly himself, so who's to say he won't go as far as to actually fire a nuke at Israel? [quote]My advice to you, think next time before you post and try to have an open mind. "

You mean kind of like you have an open mind? Oh, and I almost forgot to address this

Quote :

"Additionally we are more jewish than your type of jew. how could you even debate that? we are MIDDLE EASTERN. Where was israel during its existence? The MIDDLE EAST. Last time i checked it wasn't in spain, germany, austria, france, the ukraine, etc.... You're a Caucasian following a religion. I, sir, am a Jew."

Shows how much you know. I am actually an atheist, so when I say I am a Jew, I mean ethnicity-wise, not religion-wise.

5/25/2007 4:29:08 PM

i dont have time to go into all of this because i'm leaving for vacation but i will address everything in detail later, but for now let me say you're being incredibly obtuse especially when it comes to your examples.

first hand, if you're not even practicing the religion then i dont consider you a jew because i do not consider caucasians to be ethnic jews. end of story. please tell me how a european person is middle eastern ethnic.

Quote :

"You went from questioning the number 6 million to saying that you agree that 6 million Jews did die but your problem is gentiles who died aren't getting the same recognition. "

no i didn't. lets focus on your reading comprehension again. I said anyone who learns about it will say six million. i have never changed my position that I do not believe the number to be six million. point out where i said "hey you're right it was six million.", as opposed to people learn about six million deaths in the holocaust and that they were all jews. that statement was made to clarify how inaccurate common perceptions are about the holocaust as to bring into perceptive how inaccurate your view of what happened in the holocaust could be.

also, yes i do have an open mind. i have nothing against european jews who practice. in fact i think its great and i'm good friends with many. however i do have huge problems with those who call themselves ethnic jews, but are european instead of middle eastern, and don't even practice. thats fairly rational. also middle eastern jews would have been killed as well in the holocaust had they been lingering around in germany. i do not find myself immune to the type of persecution that you believe to find yourself under; thus, i do not distance myself from it on that level. given the way the holocaust was portrayed and how it aided in providing sympathy from the common individual for the jews around the world when they were taking israel i can believe that the numbers were exaggerated as to meet this criteria. this does not make me a fence sitter in any way shape or form.

Quote :

"He may not be that stupid, but he does seem that fanatical. I mean the fact that he is continuing on with his nuclear program despite embargos and the threat of military action against his people shows that he values the destruction of Israel more than the well being of his own people and possibly himself, so who's to say he won't go as far as to actually fire a nuke at Israel?"

hitler was mad and fanatical. not even he would have done such a bold move. once again you're being obtuse. no one striving to live another day would make such a move. also i will provide for you an accurate translation from a ashkenazi hassidic jew website that supports ahmadinejad.

btw

Quote :

"He said Israel should be destroyed, and he's starting a nuclear program in his country. Nuff said! "

this is not a valid point since he did not say that.

like i said, more later but dinner now and leaving

5/25/2007 5:03:33 PM

Where did Germany get the fuel to burn all those bodies?

5/25/2007 9:00:49 PM

Since we're going into all the crimes of WWII, I'll mention the two million or so ethnic Germans who died as a result of being expelled from Eastern Europe.

5/25/2007 9:18:46 PM

Yeah. Want to know about a REAL "holocaust"? Try the horrific fire-bombing of Dresden. Or the 3 million Germans slaughtered by the U.S., Soviets, & Allies after WWII was over.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/04/15/bomac14.xml

Quote :

"How three million Germans died after VE Day Last Updated: 12:01am BST 18/04/2007 [...] His best estimate is that some three million Germans died unnecessarily after the official end of hostilities. A million soldiers vanished before they could creep back to the holes that had been their homes. The majority of them died in Soviet captivity (of the 90,000 who surrendered at Stalingrad, only 5,000 eventually came home) but, shamingly, many thousands perished as prisoners of the Anglo-Americans. Herded into cages along the Rhine, with no shelter and very little food, they dropped like flies. Others, more fortunate, toiled as slave labour in a score of Allied countries, often for years. Incredibly, some Germans were still being held in Russia as late as 1979. The two million German civilians who died were largely the old, women and children: victims of disease, cold, hunger, suicide - and mass murder. Apart from the well-known repeated rape of virtually every girl and woman unlucky enough to be in the Soviet occupation zones, perhaps the most shocking outrage recorded by MacDonogh - for the first time in English - is the slaughter of a quarter of a million Sudeten Germans by their vengeful Czech compatriots. The survivors of this ethnic cleansing, naked and shivering, were pitched across the border, never to return to their homes. Similar scenes were seen across Poland, Silesia and East Prussia as age-old German communities were brutally expunged."

5/26/2007 12:17:11 AM

^ Why is that more believable than the slaughter of the Jews?

5/26/2007 12:23:02 AM

diversity is like mixing shit with ice cream to make the ice cream taste better

5/26/2007 1:44:09 AM

let's all go marry our siblings then!

5/26/2007 1:46:17 AM

It was not part of their blood,
It came to them very late
With long arrears to make good,
When the Saxons began to hate,

They were not easily moved,
They were icy-willing to wait
Till every count should be proved
Ere the Saxons began to hate.

Their voices were even and low,
Their eyes were level and straight,
There was neither sign nor show,
When the Saxons began to hate.

It was not preached to the crowd
It was not taught by the State,
No man spoke it aloud,
When the Saxons began to hate.

It was not suddenly bred,
It will not swiftly abate
Through the chilled years ahead
When Time shall count from the date
That the Saxons began to hate.

5/26/2007 1:59:21 AM

How long did it take for the Saxons to start writing shitty poetry?

5/26/2007 2:04:28 AM

how long did it take Jew propaganda to make whites start hating themselves?

5/26/2007 2:12:10 AM

Oh, now, Salisburyby, you just tried to answer a question with another question.

And I am doing some real soul-searching, but I can't find the part of me that hates white people as a group. Maybe it's blocked out by the very large, vocal part of me that says your poem was shitty.

5/26/2007 2:23:20 AM

I'm so hurt that you think the poem was "shitty". I'm going to go cry now.

5/26/2007 2:36:39 AM

question: Why is that[salisburyboy's previous post] more believable than the slaughter of the Jews?

answer: diversity is like mixing shit with ice cream to make the ice cream taste better

5/26/2007 4:04:53 AM

Salisburyboy, look, you can't just put random words in quotation marks like that. It isn't as though I meant something other than what you would normally take shitty to mean. There is no double entendre. I used exactly the word that I thought most adequately described the poor quality of your ethnocentric poem with a grating rythm and childish rhyme scheme.

5/26/2007 11:38:50 AM

Why do you feel the need to try to convince us again that you really think the poem is "shitty"?

Reminds me of how people who claim to believe in the theory of evolution explain/defend their "belief" in it.

5/26/2007 12:13:56 PM

5/26/2007 1:44:34 PM

There we go again, putting things arbitrarily into quotation marks.

5/26/2007 1:55:07 PM

Elvis Presley is part Jewish.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!?

6/1/2007 11:40:44 PM

Elvis Presley is was part Jewish.

6/2/2007 12:48:07 AM

Elvis lives on.

And you're an ugly, obnoxious bitch.

6/2/2007 4:15:10 AM

and you're a vapid cunt.

[Edited on June 2, 2007 at 10:45 AM. Reason : ]

6/2/2007 10:45:27 AM

from that article:

Quote :

"MacDonogh's answer is that it could all have been even worse. The US Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, favoured turning Germany into a gigantic farm, and there were genocidal Nazi-like schemes afoot to starve, sterilise or deport the population of what was left of the bombed-out cities. ... But the surviving inmates were soon replaced by German captives - Dachau, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen and even Auschwitz stayed in business after the war, only now with the Germans behind the wire."

wow

Quote :

"The discovery of the Nazi death camps stoked Allied fury, with General George Patton asking an aide amid the horrors of Buchenwald: 'Do you still find it hard to hate them?' "

so its 'an eye for an eye' it seems.

6/2/2007 12:21:05 PM

Quote :

"Henry Morgenthau, favoured turning Germany into a gigantic farm, and there were genocidal Nazi-like schemes afoot to starve, sterilise or deport the population of what was left of the bombed-out cities"

And guess what, Morgenthau was a j00. I know, shocker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morgenthau,_Jr.

Quote :

"Morgenthau was born to Jewish parents in New York City, the son of Henry Morgenthau Sr., a prominent real estate mogul and diplomat and Josephine Sykes."

The j00z dream of exterminating Nordic whites. That is part of the purpose of all the wars among and between Northern European nations over the past several hundred years. And it's the reason for the massive non-white immigration invasions of Northern Europe, the U.S., & Australia. It's attempted racial genocide via displacement and race-mixing.

6/5/2007 12:37:45 PM

6/5/2007 12:42:11 PM

Quote :

"The j00z dream of exterminating Nordic whites."

The notion of wiping Germany off of the map was fairly common in the US during WWII. The Germans had caused two world wars over the course of a single generation and people were pissed off. At that point the Germans were seen as a warlike and savage people.

Quote :

"That is part of the purpose of all the wars among and between Northern European nations over the past several hundred years."

Please prove that jews had anything to do with that. Wars between Europeans predate the Roman Empire.

Quote :

"And it's the reason for the massive non-white immigration invasions of Northern Europe, the U.S., & Australia."

Again, please provide some evidence of jewish causation.

By the way, for someone as homophobic as you, you really enjoy poetry and making collages.

6/5/2007 12:58:16 PM

you wish I was a homo like you

6/5/2007 1:22:14 PM

seriously, why all the hate?

6/5/2007 1:23:00 PM

it's time good people learned to hate

ie, to hate that which is evil and those seeking to destroy all that is good

6/5/2007 1:27:54 PM

now if you could just define evil and good for the world, we'll be in business

6/5/2007 1:43:50 PM

6/5/2007 2:22:49 PM

I think its cute that you can't have a rational discussion or defend your ideas.

However you did call me a homo. Well done. You must be proud of yourself.

Now go write some poetry and crank out another pretty collage.

6/5/2007 6:28:13 PM