pwnt by God again. what a shocker

oh, and 3

6/5/2007 12:00:45 AM

^Yeah, he's totally pwnt like a billion times now. We're not even having an argument.

And he's prefaced everything he's said to me with some sort of friendly disclaimer.

Quote :

"God: What about minority scholarships?"

What does that have to do with a black person trying to get a decent loan to buy a house?

On the topic of race-based scholarships...

Scholarships are granted on all sorts of grounds, and folks are bound to be offended (I'm exhausted and can't think of a better word right now). Someone is always going to get screwed in the business of college admissions and scholarships. If you attend a competitive high school and don't rank close to the top of your class, you might get passed over for admission to your state college of choice for some kid out in the middle of nowhere who isn't nearly as qualified as you. (I'm always amused by the out-in-the-middle-of-nowhere students who complain about all the minority students they believe were admitted based on race...)

Scholarships are not guaranteed. I've known a couple people who busted their asses in high school and did everything they were supposed to do and wound up with squat in scholarships, and that sucks. It really does. But there was never a guarantee that the scholarship was theirs.

Nowadays, universities are big on diversity. And one of the ways they encourage and promote diversity is by providing diversity (minority) scholarships. In that way, it's hard to see minority scholarships as unfair cause we all benefit from attending a diverse university. Folks can feel free to deny this, but I'll just disagree.

There's also the idea that ultimately it's difficult to guage who deserves a scholarship over everybody else. Why not give it to a black kid? Is an underprivileged black kid with a B avergae who worked 40 hours a week less meritorious than a wealthy, white kid with all the advantages who aced all his classes and joined every club? What's fair?

For the time being, I support racial preference in college admissions and scholarships, in the name of diversity and fairness, but I believe it should stop there. Such preferences do not belong in the workplace. I'm reminded of the AT&T debacle where it came to light that AT&T engaged in discriminatory hiring and promoting practices. They were ordered to set "goals" to get their workforce to match the population at large, and they did so very aggressively. They were and still are held as this great example of how affirmative action is supposed to work. But for years, qualified, white male workers went without promotions and pay raises--they alone had to bear all the burden. Furthermore, it eventually came to light that many of the minorty employees that AT&T was hiring and promoting were, in fact, not qualified and performed unsatisfactorily.

6/5/2007 8:31:30 AM

so if its a white guy getting screwed its just tough, it sucks, but they were never guaranteed anything.

if its black anyone but a white male getting screwed they are being held down and we would all get some kind of invisible benefit from their presence just because of their goddamn fucking skin color or gender not equaling white male.

You're ignorance is astounding.

6/5/2007 8:39:34 AM

Quote :

"Latino kid placed in special education classes cause he can't read English very well yet. Black kid placed in special education classes cause he has "behavioral problems." "

I'm sorry, when was it a Latino kid was put in the special ed classes instead of ESL classes? Or a black kid put in there because of "behavioral problems"? Administrators and counselors deal with behavioral problems, and if the problems can't be resolved and grow progressively worse, the student may be placed in an alternative school, one that can hopefully help prevent the student from dropping out.
Please...don't make blind, ignorant statements and place various races in them so you can get people on your side.
ANY student who has behavioral problems will be talked to by administrators. A special education student is the only one who will be in special ed classes due to behavioral problems.

Quote :

"Woman who endures sexual harrassment cause HR doesn't take her seriously. Sick person whose insurance company denies their claims on some questionable technicality."

Sexual harrassment is a SERIOUS offense and if HR doesn't take her seriously, there are multiple avenues she can take to help herself. She can perhaps speak with others in her company, talk with lawyers, contact the BBB, and so forth.

As for your sick person comment...what does that have to do with

Quote :

"All these people are being held down based on how much money they have, what color their skin is, and what they have between their legs "

??? Being sick doesn't mean you're poor/rich, white/black/Indian/Portugese/etc, or female/male. That just means the insurance company has reason to believe the sick person isn't sick. But then again, if you're sick and you go to the doctor, the insurance company isn't there next to you, denying your whooping cough or 103 temp. If you HAVE health insurance, and the doctor's office TAKES that insurance, you're pretty much good to go.
Perhaps you meant "If you're injured."


At any rate... I would like to add to the point that the white man came to Africa and enslaved so many people. Do you know how these men acquired their slaves? They were enslaved by their Own African kings. That's right, slavery existed in African societies before the British, Spanish, and French came in. And these kings SOLD their slaves and citizens to the whites. So, no, it really wasn't a utopia before the white man came.
Not that I'm suggesting slavery was good or bad. But no one has mentioned that fact in this thread yet.

6/5/2007 9:10:25 AM

^thanks for addressing those...that list that bridget gave was complete bullshit...copout copout copout copout copout

6/5/2007 9:20:06 AM

Quote :

"Lokken: so if its a white guy getting screwed its just tough, it sucks, but they were never guaranteed anything. if its black anyone but a white male getting screwed they are being held down and we would all get some kind of invisible benefit from their presence just because of their goddamn fucking skin color or gender not equaling white male. You're ignorance is astounding."

Universities are looking for diversity. And I don't think white folks are held down by that particular value in education. If anything, we all benefit from attending a diverse university. And, no, being denied a scholarship is not being held down. Being denied things you have a legal right to is being held down.

Quote :

"krneo1: I'm sorry, when was it a Latino kid was put in the special ed classes instead of ESL classes? Or a black kid put in there because of "behavioral problems"? Administrators and counselors deal with behavioral problems, and if the problems can't be resolved and grow progressively worse, the student may be placed in an alternative school, one that can hopefully help prevent the student from dropping out. Please...don't make blind, ignorant statements and place various races in them so you can get people on your side. ANY student who has behavioral problems will be talked to by administrators. A special education student is the only one who will be in special ed classes due to behavioral problems."

ESL classes haven't been around forever, but you're right that they are improving the matter.

Latino students are actually underrepresented when it comes to being specified as having a cognitive disability, but the ones who do have the status are twice as likely as their white peers with the same status to be removed from the general classroom and into a more restrictive environment. Same goes for black children.

Here's a little reading to get your feet wet:

http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/specialed/IDEA_paper02.php

And some history that still lingers:

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/peterz1.html

Did you think I make this stuff up for fun?

Quote :

"krneo1: Sexual harrassment is a SERIOUS offense and if HR doesn't take her seriously, there are multiple avenues she can take to help herself. She can perhaps speak with others in her company, talk with lawyers, contact the BBB, and so forth."

Absolutely. But my point is that HR should take her seriously. It's the law, and yet it still gets broken. But since it's a law, we're supposed to act like everything's better now.

Quote :

"krneo1: ??? Being sick doesn't mean you're poor/rich, white/black/Indian/Portugese/etc, or female/male. That just means the insurance company has reason to believe the sick person isn't sick. But then again, if you're sick and you go to the doctor, the insurance company isn't there next to you, denying your whooping cough or 103 temp. If you HAVE health insurance, and the doctor's office TAKES that insurance, you're pretty much good to go. Perhaps you meant "If you're injured.""

Injury, too. But I also meant "sick." Insurance companies deny legitimate claims all the time, and other times, shit just happens. It's so easy to go from "good to go with your insurance company" to "sell your house to cover medical bills and move in with family" when a serious illness hits. I just read a story about a guy whose wife got a difficult form of cancer and he had to miss some work to care for her and cart her back and forth to the doctor's office. He missed one too many days of work and lost his job (and his insurance). And they went broke. Six figures a year to destitute.

And it absolutely has to do with "poor/rich." Very rich folks can afford the finest medical care.

Quote :

"krneo1: At any rate... I would like to add to the point that the white man came to Africa and enslaved so many people. Do you know how these men acquired their slaves? They were enslaved by their Own African kings. That's right, slavery existed in African societies before the British, Spanish, and French came in. And these kings SOLD their slaves and citizens to the whites. So, no, it really wasn't a utopia before the white man came. Not that I'm suggesting slavery was good or bad. But no one has mentioned that fact in this thread yet."

You're not "suggesting slavery was good or bad." Honestly? You don't think it was bad???

And I'm sure the fact that slaves existed in Africa before the New World has been mentioned in this thread. And now I feel the need to add:

Quote :

"African versus European slavery Further information: African slave trade "Slavery", as it is often referred to, in African cultures was generally more like indentured servitude: "slaves" were not made to be chattel of other men, nor enslaved for life. African "slaves" were paid wages and were able to accumulate property. They often bought their own freedom and could then achieve social promotion - just as freedmen in ancient Rome - some even rose to the status of rulers (e.g. Jaja of Opobo and Sunni Ali Ber)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#African_versus_European_slavery

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 9:55 AM. Reason : sss]

6/5/2007 9:52:18 AM

universities are looking for diversity? how about they look for QUALIFIED FUCKING APPLICANTS? what a crazy idea. I promise you that if you look for qualified applicants, the issue of "diversity" will work itself out.

6/5/2007 9:53:59 AM

^It's understood that public universities are to accept students from different schools all over the state, even if they have to pass over some better-qualified students. This is how our public universities work. They're public universities.

State has become slightly more difficult to get into, but it wasn't but a few years ago that the university's attitude to admissions was to accept anybody who was barely qualified, and if they succeeded, they succeeded...if they failed, they failed. Everybody got a chance.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 10:04 AM. Reason : sss]

6/5/2007 10:00:59 AM

well, then that seems pretty stupid to me. you accept whoever the fuck is qualified. if there is a problem with getting qualified applicants from any particular group, then solve the problem before it gets there. don't try and "fix it" by letting in random people all in the name of the current popular buzzword. treat the ailment, not the fucking symptom

6/5/2007 10:02:59 AM

^I kinda touched on what you said with my last edit (Sorry about that.)

But, honestly, the business of underqualified students getting admission is self-correcting. They fail and drop out without a degree.

6/5/2007 10:06:21 AM

Quote :

"Universities are looking for diversity. And I don't think white folks are held down by that particular value in education. If anything, we all benefit from attending a diverse university. And, no, being denied a scholarship is not being held down. Being denied things you have a legal right to is being held down."

So that kid that applies to a public school doesnt have a legal right to a fair admitance policy?

You're full of shit. You know who doesnt benefit from attending that diverse university? The kid that didnt get in because some shitbird like you feels bad about being an excessive white slob and somehow feels better because they let a less qualified but better tanned kid into a school.

Quote :

"But, honestly, the business of underqualified students getting admission is self-correcting. They fail and drop out without a degree. "

How the hell is that self correcting? All it did was prevent the opportunity for another by wasting everyones resources and time until the kid that DID get in ended up where he would of if the admitance policy was actually based on merit. No Degree.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 10:17 AM. Reason : *]

6/5/2007 10:11:57 AM

Quote :

"But, honestly, the business of underqualified students getting admission is self-correcting. They fail and drop out without a degree."

so, what self-corrects for the qualified applicants who were rejected in order to let in underqualified ones?

6/5/2007 10:15:08 AM

^ I think logic says if you're qualified, you'll probably get in. Maybe not at this one, but at that one or that other one. Higher probability self-corrects for those applicants.

On a side note:

My younger brother made it into State. Fall '07 into the First Year College program. But, if he continues in his current academic apathy, then I predicted his failure and drop out. I agree that he probably got in, because he's a minority, with lower middle class parents, and has below average grades. But who knows, maybe he'll come around and actually give a care and do great... hahaha, I doubt it.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 11:25 AM. Reason : side note]

6/5/2007 11:23:33 AM

Please don't cite wikipedia as a CREDIBLE source. Seriously...

Do you want me to state that slavery was good or bad, only one side? Because I won't do it. It had costs and benefits, as with most everything. Yes, people were taken from their homelands and forced into labor. That was bad. But good came of it, as well. Like others have said on here, there were - and are - many travesties in Africa. The slaves and their descendants were spared those. The slaves were not always treated harshly in America, because if a slave-owner treated his slaves harshly, they could get ill or die, and then he would have no labor to create money.
The slaves had, for the most part, job security, which is Hardly something anyone can say today. In my opinion, sharecropping can be seen as just as bad, if not worse.
Take some American History classes.

And on that note, think about all the other cultures that have had horrible things happen. The Holocaust. I know plenty of Jews who travel to Germany now. The caste system in India and all the terrors brought with it. The crises in Africa today, like in Darfur. The conflict between Israel, Palestine, Lebanon and other countries. And if we go back in history, there are only more. The Mongols vs the Chinese. The Chinese vs the Japanese. Christians slaughtered by Jews. Muslims slaughtered by Christians. The Scottish vs the British.
DON'T tell me we should feel so bad for the blacks and slavery. I don't. I didn't enslave them, my ancestors didn't enslave them. More than likely, some of my family was killed or tortured in Scotland, and long before that, enslaved by German visigoths. So no, I don't think slavery was THAT bad overall. If anything, the Trail of Tears was FAR worse. Ever hear of the smallpox blankets used and reused for the Native Americans? Yea...they may not have been enslaved, but they sure were tortured.




On the topic of ESL...I like how you turn everything around to fit your side. You originally stated

Quote :

"Latino kid placed in special education classes cause he can't read English very well yet."

You did not state this Latino student had a cognitive disability (btw, not being able to read English "yet" (how long has your hypothetical Latino student been in American classes?) doesn't mean he/she has a disability. It means he/she is Adjusting to another culture).
You're right, ESL hasn't been around forever. Latinos haven't been coming into our country forever, either. In fact, formal education for all cultures hasn't been available in our country for that long, either.

6/5/2007 6:17:30 PM

Latino children have been placed in special education classes because they could not read very well. In fact, here's an immigrant handbook telling parents to be on the look out for it:

Quote :

"It is important that only those children who are in need of special education receive it. If your child is assigned to a class or program for the mentally disabled, you should be suspicious--especially if your child does not seem disabled to you. Categorizing children whose English is incomplete or who have a different culture as retarded or mentally disabled has been a common problem in the United States. There are laws that require testing to take language and culture into consideration. "

http://www.ncela.gwu.edu/pathways/immigration/handbook.htm

Did you read the other links I posted about the treatment of minority students and their representation in special education classes?

Quote :

"krneo1:The slaves were not always treated harshly in America, because if a slave-owner treated his slaves harshly, they could get ill or die, and then he would have no labor to create money. The slaves had, for the most part, job security, which is Hardly something anyone can say today. In my opinion, sharecropping can be seen as just as bad, if not worse. Take some American History classes."

I have taken American history classes.

SEE, YOU'RE FUCKING PATHETIC.

You wanna blabber on about how Africans sold their own into slavery...I point out that European and African slavery were very different institutions. So you wanna talk about the so-called benevolent masters. I'm well aware of the benevolent and malelovent masters and the economic factors that played into those roles.

And the slaves did not have job security. Possibly dying on a voyage across the Atlantic is not job security, you stupid fuck.

And before you say something cheesy, like, "Ooooo, I touched a nerve..."

Yes, you did touch a fucking nerve. I'm suck and fucking tired of people like you, people out there who look like everybody else, seem just as educated as everybody else, but inside, you're this twisted fuck who can't even say that slavery was, and still is, bad. I didn't say you had to feel bad for it, like you put it--I said you should think it's bad. YOU SHOULD THINK CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY ARE BAD.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 8:39 PM. Reason : sss]

6/5/2007 8:31:47 PM

you know bridget there are also white kids who are slow and learn to read more slowly than others and get put in LD classes

6/5/2007 9:09:50 PM

I accept that you have some credible information for the Latino comment. Thank you for the information.

Yes, I did read the other links, otherwise I would've commented on the "twice as much" comment.


As for your INCREDIBLY rude and pointless banter, I'm sorry I disagree with you on whether slavery was good or bad. Yes I DO think it was bad, but it was also GOOD. I don't think I ever said "I don't feel bad about slavery." Go back and read my first paragraph. Geez. Why can't people who sit on TWW and curse step back for a moment and just READ what people say? Do you honestly think saying "fuck" is going to prove your point?

Gee...sorry I didn't know you DID take American history. It obviously doesn't show. I can sit online and Google random tidbits of information I need to pwn someone online all day. But just because I didn't know you took history doesn't make me "fucking pathetic."

Yes, you pointed out Euro and African slavery were different...through wikipedia. You still haven't rectified that part, yet.

I'm thrilled you're so well aware of slave conditions. If you were, then you would understand the grey areas. Again, it obviously doesn't show. You would much rather try to point me out as being twisted. God forbid I break away from thinking in black and white terms (no pun intended).


How about you give me some hard evidence stating that African slavery was just indentured servitude?

And again...Blacks haven't been the only ones persecuted, tortured, enslaved, killed, discriminated against, etc.

We can talk morals. Society has deemed that "slavery" is morally wrong. But talking back to elders, in our society, is not very morally wrong (excluding immigrants who still believe such).

We can talk about the exceptions to the rule, where some slaves in America were granted freedom after so many years of service, or where former slaves would help out their masters. Obviously, there were the bad apples (ex: slave-owners who treated slaves badly), but they existed EVERYWHERE in the world and still do.



Just give me credible information. Give me information from African leaders, from African history (not the Westernized version, more like Mansa Musa, travelers to the areas, and African writers), from African countries.


And learn something called acceptance. You may not like my viewpoint, but you can accept it as my own and respect the fact that I have an opinion on it, rather than remain ignorant. And the age-old addage: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

6/5/2007 9:48:15 PM

Quote :

"And he's prefaced everything he's said to me with some sort of friendly disclaimer."

Yeah, well.. you know this is a touchy subject with some people. I'm just trying to tread carefully.

6/6/2007 12:01:45 AM

Quote :

"krneo1: As for your INCREDIBLY rude and pointless banter, I'm sorry I disagree with you on whether slavery was good or bad. Yes I DO think it was bad, but it was also GOOD. I don't think I ever said "I don't feel bad about slavery." Go back and read my first paragraph. Geez. Why can't people who sit on TWW and curse step back for a moment and just READ what people say? Do you honestly think saying "fuck" is going to prove your point?"

Sorry, it doesn't look like you made a comment about "feeling." Someone else did, and I attributed it to you mistakenly.

You did say that you're not suggesting slavery was good or bad.

And I'm here to say that you should suggest it was bad. That's what I'm challenging you on.

Quote :

"krneo1:Gee...sorry I didn't know you DID take American history. It obviously doesn't show. I can sit online and Google random tidbits of information I need to pwn someone online all day. But just because I didn't know you took history doesn't make me "fucking pathetic.""

I didn't call you "fucking pathetic" because you implied that I'd never taken American history classes.

I called you that cause you say things without knowing what you're talking about. A simple Google would reveal that I'm not making this stuff up.

Quote :

"krneo1: Yes, you pointed out Euro and African slavery were different...through wikipedia. You still haven't rectified that part, yet."

Because it's common fucking knowledge.

Quote :

"It is important to distinguish between European slavery and African slavery. In most cases, slavery systems in Africa were more like indentured servitude in that the slaves retained some rights and children born to slaves were generally born free. The slaves could be released from servitude and join a family clan. In contrast, European slaves were chattel, or property, who were stripped of their rights. The cycle of slavery was perpetual; children of slaves would, by default, also be slaves."

http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi3/slave_2.htm

If it's your goal to justify slavery, you've not set much of a goal. People justified for it years and years and years--all you have to do is repeat the talking points. But now we recognize that it was wrong. That it was bad. Not right. Not good. BAD BAD BAD.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 12:10 AM. Reason : sss]

6/6/2007 12:05:53 AM

White pride is always a form of delivering hatred. Color pride is never acceptable. Latin pride, German pride, Slavic pride, Irish pride, Italian pride, English pride, American pride, French pride, Spanish pride, etc are all acceptable forms of pride and you should stop being a racist entrepreneur and pick one.

6/6/2007 3:54:02 AM

Quote :

"in the name of diversity and fairness, but I believe it should stop there."

if you are going to include 'fairness' in that sentence then diversity should not be listed. Its only fair that the hardest working get that last spot in school rather then the blackest, poorest kid.

6/6/2007 2:37:04 PM

Quote :

"The slaves had, for the most part, job security, which is Hardly something anyone can say today."

Did he really just say that? God damn, some of you kids are dumb.

I think I'd rather be unemployed than a slave with job security.

6/6/2007 4:37:21 PM

Quote :

"American pride"

If somebody says "I'm proud to be white" then they are considered some kind of white powe bigot

If they say they are "proud to be an American" then they are considered some bible thumping redneck drunk hillbilly

6/6/2007 4:39:45 PM

I think racial/national pride is a dumb idea to begin with. It's divisive, and it's not like any of us have a choice where we're born or what race we are anyway.

6/6/2007 4:58:46 PM

exactly. stop with all this nonsense. we are what we are and no one else really gives a shit if we're proud of it or not

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 5:14 PM. Reason : ,]

6/6/2007 5:14:11 PM

white people dont care that were white, we just care that we arnt
black/hispanic/anyotherethnicity
Anyone, anyone, anyone, including all races, that wants to have a race celebrating holiday, cant do that and want equality at the same time. (when i say race celebrating, i dont mean shit like the alamoe, or martin luther king day etc,) i mean strictly pride holidays. As in, "proud to be" a certain race, who gives a fuck that your black? or that your hispanic? just pay bills and no one cares kthx

6/6/2007 5:20:52 PM

uh, what?

6/6/2007 5:23:09 PM

we should have a proud to be an earthling day.

I heard a stand up comedian when i was on a cruise. (he was black) it was pretty funny how he was saying blacks are the only ones that have a continent in their reference. 'African American' pretty soon they'll be saying Earthling-American for blacks. Instead of blacks actually getting to be called by their own country - American.

6/6/2007 10:57:11 PM

Quote :

"Yes, which makes an interesting point. You rarely (if ever) see Blacks touting pride for their specific African countries (Nigerian pride, Somalian pride), instead they simply congregate all together as one large group. Why does this occur with this specific racial group? "

-God, in responce to LoneSnark's comment that he is proud to be scottish.


I think the "black pride" phenomena in the US is different than "scottish pride" in that black people do not have the same link to a specific region of Africa. They don't have the "family" connection to specific regions or tribes that whites do to specific regions of Europe. Indeed, Black people lost almost every link they had to Africa when they involunatrily removed from their homes during the slave trade. As a result, the "black experience" has been fundamentally different from most any other immigrant group in the US, and (as a matter of fact) different from blacks in other countries. So really, black pride is more or less pride in being an "American" black.

I would think that this is exactly why we don't see "Asian" pride parades. I have never met anyone that was proud of being "Asian" per se. They were ussually proud of being Japanese, Chinese, what have you.

6/7/2007 5:31:53 AM

^^American Indian
Asian American
Latin American

.

[Edited on June 10, 2007 at 10:23 PM. Reason : sss]

6/10/2007 10:20:55 PM