Clearly hooksaw wants to lose a thread in every section.

It's the eleven-fecta

7/26/2007 1:33:37 PM

^^ I'm simply expressing an opinion that some of you find objectionable--I'm not trolling anybody or anything, but I do believe what I'm posting.

The guy above, Boone-tard, now that's a fucking troll.

7/26/2007 3:50:28 PM

You may not be trying to troll, but when you post something dumb without realizing it (which you mostly don't seem to realize), and assert you're right, it makes you come of as a troll.

Trolls usually know what they're doing when they troll. If you're really not trying to troll, then it means something else...

I'm not a gun owner, but I don't see why you wouldn't want a .22 as a defense weapon. If the purpose of a CCW is to defend yourself against an attacker, they'll likely run away regardless of what you shoot them with, and you'll be safe. The argument that the 22 won't kill them seems to going against the claims of gun nuts when they're criticized for being blood-thirsty psychos.

7/26/2007 4:12:03 PM

Quote :

"but I don't see why you wouldn't want a .22 as a defense weapon"

plain and simple its too small

7/26/2007 4:13:43 PM

The only way to solve this is with a quick draw competition.

7/26/2007 4:16:09 PM

Put everyone in a circle with their gun of choice, everybody shoots, last one breathing was right?

7/26/2007 4:18:04 PM

It worked for the ancient greeks.

7/26/2007 4:18:58 PM

Quote :

"I don't see why you wouldn't want a .22 as a defense weapon"

That's OK. You can use a .22LR for self defense if you want.

I know why cops don't carry 22s and since I live in the same city
and might face the same criminals (except I don't have backup)
I know why I don't want a .22 as a CCW defense weapon.



[Edited on July 26, 2007 at 4:22 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2007 4:19:26 PM

and i've got a little .25 that i sometimes carry...certainly not a large caliber...i have it loaded with HPs though its still basically just a big centerfire .22...if the shit went down i could at least shoot somebody and make an escape...but more often than not i have a .45 which will knock down pretty much anybody

7/26/2007 4:23:09 PM

^x7 This is why:

Quote :

"Ruger .22 pistol--it's all you need. The ammo is cheap, it's fun to plink with, and you don't have to be concerned about a big kick. In addition, you should be able to become quite accurate with it, which should offset any concern about lack of knockdown power."

In addition, just because someone owns or likes guns, it does not make him or her a "gun nut" or a "blood-thirsty psycho," as you so tactfully put it. And I think I've pinpointed your problem:

Quote :

"I'm not a gun owner. . . ."

JCASHFAN and I had agreed to disagree on this issue--but then theDuke866 got me all riled up again. Just because a lot of these folks think they're right doesn't mean that they actually are.

^^^^ I'll bet I win.

[Edited on July 26, 2007 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2007 4:28:09 PM

Quote :

""but I don't see why you wouldn't want a .22 as a defense weapon" plain and simple its too small "

Too small for what?

^ see, you did it again (failed reading comprehension). I wasn't calling gun owners psychos or nuts, but I was talking about things said about them. And what does me not being a gun owner have to do with anything? The point of this thread is to educate us non gun owners about guns, and I could easily see myself owning a gun some day, but I don't see why certain people are vehemently against .22s.

[Edited on July 26, 2007 at 4:54 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2007 4:52:12 PM

too small to carry as a reliable self defense weapon

if you are in a life and death situation you cant count on someone to "likely run away regardless of what you shoot them with"...you have to count on a gun that can drop them

7/26/2007 4:56:08 PM

A .22 can kill someone easily. It will NOT have knockdown power, especially from a pistol. The person you just shot with the .22 may live just long enough to knife you before slowly bleeding out. In short, you better get a CNS hit with it or hope the guy runs off, or you're fucked.

Someone goes down from:

Blood loss
CNS Hit
Perceived Shock

http://www.brassfetcher.com/ - look at the gelatin results from .22 compared to even .380.

[Edited on July 26, 2007 at 6:20 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2007 6:18:21 PM

Quote :

"Yes, we know we'll die if shot with a .22 several times, but if we're shot once or twice in the body, it'll likely take a while, and it'll hurt, and there are plenty of badasses out there who would be very angry that you shot them with a small gun. Why are you trolling this so hard?"

Exactly.

don't like 80% of gunshot victims live? i'm sure a much higher % than that of those hit by .22LR live. If I have to shoot someone, I don't really care too much whether or not he lives or dies, but I'm quite concerned with whether or not he is immediately and completely incapacited, no matter how tough, pissed, tweaked-out, determined, or desperate he might be. A .22 will simply never be the equal of something in the 9mm-plus range by that measure.

Quote :

"I'm not a gun owner, but I don't see why you wouldn't want a .22 as a defense weapon. If the purpose of a CCW is to defend yourself against an attacker, they'll likely run away regardless of what you shoot them with, and you'll be safe. The argument that the 22 won't kill them seems to going against the claims of gun nuts when they're criticized for being blood-thirsty psychos. "

If the situation gets bad enough that I start shooting, I want to minimize "likelihoods" and maximize "certainties". I'm pretty confident that I could get the job done against an unarmed assailant most of the time with a .22. However, things get a lot more certain with a heavier round...and if he's armed and has the ability to shoot back, the the scale tips even more towards the larger round, because you need to kill him (or TOTALLY incapacitate him, which probably means about the same thing) QUICKLY.

In any case, I don't give a damn whether he lives or dies if he did something bad enough to put me in a situation where I had to shoot him. That doesn't make me a blood-thirsty psycho...that makes him a fuckhead who bought it fair & square.

7/26/2007 8:32:17 PM

G-d I suck, I'm coming back to this thread again, but not to respond to hooksaw. Anyway, to the point . . .

Quote :

"The argument that the 22 won't kill them seems to going against the claims of gun nuts when they're criticized for being blood-thirsty psychos."

I'm not a blood-thirsty psycho, but when one comes at me with the intent to do me bodily harm, I don't want to graze him, I don't want to blow his knee-cap out, I don't want to wound him, and I sure as shit don't just want to scare him. I don't particularly care if I kill him or not, but I do want him incapacitated so that he is unable to cause me, or anyone around me, harm. Period. Legally, any shots fired in anger at someone are considered deadly force, irregardless of the size of the round, so the "should I wound him / should I kill him" debate is non-existant as far as the law is concerned.

The legal and moral hurdle I must cross before I shoot someone in a self-defense situation is a tall one, but if I cross it then the person I'm shooting has abrogated his right to life. His death, while tragic from a number of perspectives, is not the result of my social degeneracy.

[Edited on July 26, 2007 at 10:38 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2007 10:16:46 PM

Dude, if a 9mm is too much for you to handle reliably, you need to just forget about the whole gun thing.

My wife isn't scared of her grandpa's 9mm. Why are some of you guys?

.22? Why not just avoid the paperwork and get an air pistol?

7/26/2007 10:41:13 PM

Quote :

"The legal and moral hurdle I must cross before I shoot someone in a self-defense situation is a tall one, but if I cross it then the person I'm shooting has abrogated his right to life. His death, while tragic from a number of perspectives, is not the result of my social degeneracy. "

That is a good way to put it, and that would be my personal main issue.

If I ever got a gun, it would likely not be for a CCW, but just for target shooting (like a game...).

As an aside... does anyone know the percentage of people that have CCW permits that have to use their weapon? It's always good to be prepared for anything, but I haven't been in a situation in my life, and neither have my parents, and most people I know where they would really need a gun. It seems guns are given way more attention than they really deserve.

7/27/2007 12:44:55 AM

^that's part of the purpose of concealing.

and the answer is "very few". in addition, most of the places you're more likely to need it are places you aren't allowed to carry.

Quote :

"The legal and moral hurdle I must cross before I shoot someone in a self-defense situation is a tall one, but if I cross it then the person I'm shooting has abrogated his right to life. His death, while tragic from a number of perspectives, is not the result of my social degeneracy."

yeah, that's a nicer way of saying it.

in addition, you have already crossed that legal hurdle when you squeeze the trigger, regardless of caliber...so in addition to being tactically unsound, it's silly to use a .22 "so you're less likely to kill them". You either need to be ok with killing someone, or you don't need to carry a gun of any type.

7/27/2007 1:03:04 AM

if i had one of these i would do something right now

good thing i dont

7/27/2007 3:03:26 AM

Quote :

"yeah, that's a nicer way of saying it."

wasn't trying to steal your thunder, I responded to the original post before I read yours . . . but we're on the same page.

Quote :

"If I ever got a gun, it would likely not be for a CCW, but just for target shooting (like a game...)."

then the .22 is perfect for you.

7/27/2007 8:30:51 AM

There is absolutely no reason for the majority of Americans to choose a .22 over a 9mm. You want to talk about how easy a .22 is to fire. Have you fired a 9mm? I took a buddy's girlfriend out shooting for her first time and gave her a 9mm. ALL of her shots were center mass. She had never fired anything before and this girl is like 5'1" and maybe 100 pounds. She was using a polymer SUB COMPACT (i.e. much lighter than many of your options). Rapid fire produced roughly a 6" grouping w/ 10 rounds at 21 ft. Granted, that's not great for target shooting but take a look at your chest and you'll see that it's more than adequate.

22 is very easy to shoot with tiny wound tracks. 9mm is easy to shoot with a wound track that's huge in comparison. When someone is trying to attack you, the point is to make them stop. I (and most other CCP holders) aren't out to kill someone although we accept the possibility. We want to stop the threat to ourselves or our loved ones as quickly and easily as possible. .22 just does not compare to any other self defense round to provide the necessary damage to make it a good choice. Is a .22 better than nothing? Of course. Comparing it to a 9mm is just stupid though. With minimal practice, most people can be accurate enough with a 9mm to put as many rounds into a target at nearly the same pace as they can with a .22. Since most people's accuracy issues lie in their trigger finger control, accuracy of a 9mm & .22 should be fairly similar.

One last thing about a .22. Would you really want to trust your life to a gun that may go "click" instead of firing? .22s are one of the most unreliable choices you can get. Many of the gun choices have feed issues with any ammo. If you get one of the more reliable guns, you still have to test numerous ammo choices to find out whether the AMMO is reliable. When it comes down to it, you have a much higher chance of failure with a .22 than with any .380, 9mm, .357, .40, etc. etc. etc.

7/27/2007 10:10:47 AM

Quote :

".22s are one of the most unreliable choices you can get."

i dunno about that... i think its more of a gun-to-gun issue than a caliber issue...not sure if H&K even make a .22 but i doubt it would be prone to jams...whereas an FIE or a Llama or even something thats not propertly maintained will be a lot more likely to jam

however regarding your comment about taking a girl out and shooting a 9mm...i was at the lake a few months back with some people...taught a few girls to shoot handguns...the gun of choice? browning .45 auto...they could handle it

7/27/2007 10:15:04 AM

Quote :

".22 just does not compare to any other self defense round to provide the necessary damage to make it a good choice. Is a .22 better than nothing? Of course. Comparing it to a 9mm is just stupid though."

that's pretty much the half of it--it's certainly better than throwing rocks and if you already have one, then by all means carry it, but if you're going to get a new handgun for self-defense you shouldn't really be considering anything smaller than a .380

7/27/2007 10:17:12 AM

Quote :

"I'm not a gun owner, but I don't see why you wouldn't want a .22 as a defense weapon. If the purpose of a CCW is to defend yourself against an attacker, they'll likely run away regardless of what you shoot them with, and you'll be safe. The argument that the 22 won't kill them seems to going against the claims of gun nuts when they're criticized for being blood-thirsty psychos. "

Moron, this is what I think...

I think that the self defense scenario in your head is one of a pocket book grabber or potential rapist out on the street. In these two situations any firearm is probably good enough to make the threat go away. A whole lot of shouting may be enough to make the threat go away.

When I think of self defense situations I think of house breakins where they attacker is more willing to kill and is probably armed.
If they do have a gun and I pull one out then I can expect a firefight.
That firefight would be over in a matter of seconds, there's no running away.

Now, lets say the attacker is 350 lbs with a nice thick layer of fat over some muscle.
I have my Ruger 10/22, a rifle chambered in 22LR.
Suppose my girlfriend is on the other side of the attacker at the other end of a long hallway and a headshot would put her at greater risk of being injured if I missed.

Lets pause here and think about ballistics. A 22LR fired out of a rifle will typically penetrate up to 10-12" in ballistic gelatin. A 22LR fired out of a handgun will penetrate less due to lower velocities form shorter barrels.

Back to the scenario...I pull the trigger while aiming at center of mass, the .22 bullet hits his leather jacket (worth 3 inches of ballistic gelatin), runs into his fat ass man titty (which is 6 inches thick), and lodges in his pectoral muscle.
With the adrenaline pumping he won't even know he's been hit.
He may not even bleed to death.

Okay, now if I shot him with my 357Mag then...The bullet would penetrate his leather jacket, his fat ass man titty, his pec, smash one or two of his ribs into pieces driving some fragments into his lung, the bullet would pass through his lung (maybe I get lucky and his his heart too) damaging it and filling the chest cavity with blood, busts a couple more ribs or vertabrae, and then lodges somewhere in a roll of fat on his back.

He would know he'd been hit. Hopefully I pulled the trigger before he did. Hopefully I'd get a couple more shots off and he'd fall over with his lungs full of blood and I'd be safe.
Hopefully I'll never been in that situation, but if I was I wouldn't be holding my 22. I'd be holding my 357, 9mm, or preferably a 12ga shotgun.

7/27/2007 10:44:54 AM

Quote :

"G-d I suck, I'm coming back to this thread again, but not to respond to hooksaw."

JCASHFAN

LOL! I can't quit you, gun thread.

7/27/2007 7:57:04 PM

Quote :

"You either need to be ok with killing someone, or you don't need to carry a gun of any type."

theDuke866

I didn't see this before. It is probably the most important point in the thread.

7/27/2007 9:50:24 PM

^5

He was referring to failure rate of the ammo, not the weapon. Rimfires run a notoriously higher risk of failures to fire, due to inconsistent primer application from round to round, batch to batch. Small pistol centerfire primers are much more consistently reliable.

^

Hook, I would amend that saying to "You either need to be prepared to take a life to defend your own, or you don't need to carry a weapon, period."

Nobody should be ok with killing someone.

7/28/2007 3:02:16 AM

springfield xd-40


lifetime warranty and tons of safety features.

i had a friend who had a backfire destroying the gun but the safety measures in place protected him from it... with a lifetime warranty springfield replaced it free of charge. (i think it was because he was using recycled ammo)

[Edited on July 28, 2007 at 3:25 AM. Reason : l]

7/28/2007 3:22:05 AM

^^ I am confident that prepared was the intended meaning of the post at issue.

7/28/2007 12:04:19 PM