Quote :

"Just my opinion, I don't give a fuck if the world is in peace...if I am in a plane that is IN AIR flying and we get taken over by terrorists my ass isn't going to remain calm because wtf are they going to do land the plane and get a few million dollars and a helicopter filled with fuel to help them get away?"

easy to justify after the fact, but it'd take more than you to take over an airplane and I doubt your twitching body laying in the aisle would convince anyone else to step out of line.

[Edited on October 23, 2007 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

10/23/2007 4:00:54 PM

Quote :

"If the terrorists believe that plan would work then I do not feel comfortable with them having my life in their hands in the first place i.e. landing the plane. I mean that is just my logic."

yeah, well let's see how well "your logic" holds up when you're 30,000 feet in the air in a hollow tube with guys with knives/guns/bombs making demands. Hey, i don't know - maybe you are a hero. but you can't sit down here and 2nd guess people who actually experienced it.

10/23/2007 4:01:18 PM

I would guess that the terrorists probably took two or more flight attendents hostage, then murdered one of them with a box cutter right in front of everyone for effect...they then probably promised no more harm to anyone if the passengers remained calm and seated while they held the knife to another's throat.

In a situation like that, I can easily imagine everyone chillin out, not wanting to be the cause of another brutal death.

10/23/2007 4:03:30 PM

they had guns and bombs? wasn't ever aware of this

10/23/2007 4:08:52 PM

they claimed they had bombs. That's also a tactic that kept people in the seats. Killed a stewardess, said they had bombs and would blow the thing up.


I don't think the person above claimed they had guns and bombs, I think he was talking in the generic hijacking sense.

10/23/2007 4:10:48 PM

hmmm, so far no responses to my "how the hell is no one going to notice the explosives and wires" everywhere post.

10/23/2007 6:48:36 PM

^ I've asked the same question to a number of conspiracy theory believers and have never gotten a straight answer.

10/23/2007 6:58:13 PM

^They point me to this video: http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=NHJHAp49Lh8

The buildings were powered down for a weekend, and then some guys with toolboxes made loud thumps and kicked up dust. Apparently, thats all that is required to rig the entire buildings with wires and explosives and manage to conceal all evidence of it from thousands of employees. It couldn't possibly have been building maintenance because it happened right before 9/11, and is a perfect candidate for the post hoc fallacy.

10/23/2007 9:22:07 PM

^ Great points in that video:

The WTC was in dire need of renovation prior to 9/11, yet there was no reason for construction workers to be present prior to 9/11.

The WTC was a worthy of demolition because it was so hard to fill yet there was no reason for floors to be empty prior to 9/11.

10/23/2007 9:37:33 PM

The other problem with the conspiracies here is that they are needlessly complicated. Why would a conspiracy use aircraft to fly into the WTC when they can't control what goes on inside the aircraft? Why use only box-cutters? Why not just go OKC style and have the terrorists set up massive car bombs underneath the buildings?

Why the fuck would you hit the Pentagon if you intended to launch a war?

[Edited on October 23, 2007 at 10:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/23/2007 10:14:48 PM

So, let me get this straight: Islamofascists did fly planes into the Twin Towers, but the allegedly incompetent Bush administration intentionally collapsed WTC 7 to put icing on the war cake and kept dozens--if not hundreds--of people quiet about it to this day?

Um. . .seems unlikely, to say the least.

10/23/2007 10:33:59 PM

what you fail to realize, is that the flash of light at the pentagon was really the first test of a mass neuron eraser, you know, like Men In Black, which simultaneously caused everyone in the District to have seen an airplane that wasn't really there.

10/23/2007 11:02:49 PM

lol.

Quote :

"^ Great points in that video: The WTC was in dire need of renovation prior to 9/11, yet there was no reason for construction workers to be present prior to 9/11. The WTC was a worthy of demolition because it was so hard to fill yet there was no reason for floors to be empty prior to 9/11."

ftw

10/23/2007 11:36:42 PM

^^^

Quote :

"incompetent Bush administration "

This part's correct at least.

10/23/2007 11:52:19 PM

^ So says user IMStoned420.

10/23/2007 11:59:49 PM

^ yeah, you have WWAAAYYY more credibility than me on here. [/sarcasm] and I was just debating that 9/11 was a conspiracy (and i already said i stopped seriously believing it after 1-2 posts).

10/24/2007 12:02:42 AM

Ad hominem and such.

salisburyboy lives

10/24/2007 12:05:08 AM

^ I can guarantee you that's not me.

10/24/2007 12:06:49 AM

Quote :

"The buildings were powered down for a weekend, and then some guys with toolboxes "

I wonder how many suitcases it takes to store a couple tons of explosives a few thousand blasting caps and a hundred miles of wire. And again, any demolition would take several dozen month's worth of Sundays, not a weekend.

I actually heard one 911 twooth nut tell me they hid the explosives in the furniture. bhwahahaha, only problem with that is if you put a non-shaped bomb several feet away from a column only a small fraction of the total energy of the explosion will be directed upon the column. That and thats alot of friggin couches (okay I suppose you could use potted plants too).

In the Oklahoma city bombing, the Rental truck (larger than even the largest Lazyboy) was packed FULL of explosive material and parked next to a reinforced concrete column. As it turns out that blast was sufficient to remove *that* one column (and none others). So if you want an idea of how much explosives it takes to destroy a structural column without using fancy shaped charges placed directly on the member, thats it. (keeping mind of course that concrete is more brittle than steel and the OKCity columns only had to support 10 floors, not 100+).

and of course, theres still the wires...

10/24/2007 12:16:09 AM

i tend to not believe him about security either but I could be wrong. they power down our building every once in awhile for things at work but our security is running off of generators during this time (we have several government projects) and not down.

10/24/2007 7:23:25 AM

What I don't get about the whole deal is this:

If there really was no severe high level conspiracy behind the event, then why not just launch a better investigation into it? There's certainly enough public opinion that something was fishy to warrant that (see this thread).

The government has to understand that it's begging for conspiracy theories with it's handling of the event. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

10/24/2007 7:46:21 AM

Just a thought, like I said earlier I am not for or against the whole conspiracy thing, but if it was orchistrated like some believe then it is logical to believe that they started bringing in demolition supplies MUCH earlier. As in it wasn't just a weekend job, maybe they had been working on bringing in demo materials a little bit everyday for a year or two. But I will agree that is a SHIT LOAD of demo materials that you would need to keep hidden from people, but it is also possible to hide that much and even more materials in a large building like that. My best thought of where to hide this much material, where almost no one would look would be in the ceiling. The ACT is easily removed, and usually the only people that will ever move an acoustical tile is to mess with network connections.

10/24/2007 8:06:12 AM

With that being said, I am sure that you could make demo wire look/pass off as network cables. How many security guards have you ever met that even knew wtf network cables looked like, and it does take a lot of cable to create a network in that large of a building; no where near enough to demo a building but you know that is just a thought.

10/24/2007 8:11:31 AM

Quote :

"If there really was no severe high level conspiracy behind the event, then why not just launch a better investigation into it? There's certainly enough public opinion that something was fishy to warrant that (see this thread)."

There have been innumerable studies done by the government and privately. Just because people ignore them doesn't mean nobody did them.
To conspiracy theorists, the government can do nothing right.
If they don't investigate, then they're just trying to cover something up.
If they do investigate, the results are biased and cannot be trusted.
If they investigate too much, they are overcompensating for something they're covering up.

There are more than enough scientifically backed, fully reasoned explanations for what happened, and there is no need for them to order investigation after investigation. After it's been proved that it is entirely possible that a fully loaded 747 could structurally weaken certain parts of the building, which could then cause a domino effect, what else is there to look at?

read these articles fully, especially the parts about the buildings and weakened steel
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
http://www.physorg.com/news108737007.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/6160775.stm
unless, of course, the government "got to" everybody at Popular Mechanics, Cambridge University, and the BBC and gave them hush-money to spread untruths about the physics of the disaster

Quote :

"The government has to understand that it's begging for conspiracy theories with it's handling of the event. That's what doesn't make sense to me."

like i said, the government can do nothing in this situation to make them look better. By even publicly acknowledging the conspiracy theorists, they're just giving them more fuel.

Quote :

"As in it wasn't just a weekend job, maybe they had been working on bringing in demo materials a little bit everyday for a year or two. But I will agree that is a SHIT LOAD of demo materials that you would need to keep hidden from people, but it is also possible to hide that much and even more materials in a large building like that. My best thought of where to hide this much material, where almost no one would look would be in the ceiling. The ACT is easily removed, and usually the only people that will ever move an acoustical tile is to mess with network connections."

As others have said, the problem with conspiracy theories is that they're just needlessly complex. The only way they can make this theory work is if dozens or hundreds of people have been working under the cloak of night for 2 years, bringing in explosives 1 suitcase at a time and hiding them in the ceiling panels (not to mention as others have said - you can't just throw bombs anywhere. they have to be carefully wired and placed), then re-wiring nearly the entire building with explosive cables disguised to look like Cat5 network cables? All this without anyone directly involved speaking out then or since, and nobody else noticing or asking questions?

..... really? really?


[Edited on October 24, 2007 at 9:53 AM. Reason : links]

10/24/2007 9:49:57 AM

I mean I know it sounds stupid and almost impossible but hell if there is even the slightest chance then you know that there are people that will believe it, and claim various conspiracy beliefs. But lets face it if we could somehow prove it was true then that would probably be the end of our government. No point in arguing too much over a theory that cannot be proven.

10/24/2007 10:23:47 AM

one unfortunate fact that the conspiracy theorists ignore is that it has been proven that a fully loaded 747 is more than capable of destroying a building that was engineered like the WTC

10/24/2007 11:14:40 AM

clemson engineers must've built the WTC

10/24/2007 12:34:05 PM

haha those are dangerous words where i work, the majority of the people i work with are clemson engineers

10/24/2007 12:39:12 PM

^ not as dangerous as the stuff they design I bet.

10/24/2007 3:08:36 PM

Quote :

"My best thought of where to hide this much material, where almost no one would look would be in the ceiling. The ACT is easily removed, and usually the only people that will ever move an acoustical tile is to mess with network connections. "

Except the explosives would need to be on the columns, which aren't in the ceiling.

10/24/2007 3:11:32 PM

Listen, lafta, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say "OK, dubya and his cronies stood to gain a lot from 9/11," that still doesn't prove that dubya and his cronies did it. Simply showing benefit doesn't prove a damn thing. At best it gives you a motive. In order to say "oh yeah, dubya did it," you have to come up with a hell of a lot more than "dubya benefited from it."

The most damning evidence against a 9/11 gov't conspiracy is, as other people have pointed out, the fact that such a conspiracy would have to be massive. Such a conspiracy would be almost impossible to conceal during the planning stages, much less the execution stages. Dubya can't prevent his speeches from being leaked to the press before he gives them, so what makes you think he or anyone else in the gov't could hide something as massive as 9/11? Karl Rove couldn't hide the outing of Valerie Plame. Alberto Gonzalez couldn't hide the allegedly politically motivated firing of US attorneys. Hell, Clinton couldn't hide a fucking BLOW JOB, for crying out loud. Yet somehow, Bush or his cronies masterminded 9-fucking-11, and no one has squealed.

And he masterminded it in order to get into Iraq, right? And he then proceeded to botch the entire Iraq operation? Iraq is a fucking CAKEWALK compared to the level of gov't control needed to pull off 9/11, and somehow the admin can't get their GOAL right? Hell, the admin couldn't have planted a couple of nukes in Iraq, just for shits and giggles to shore up their case after the fact, but they could mastermind 9/11?

And here's the best part. The administration masterminds 9/11 and gives the public names of the alleged hijackers, right? And yet for some odd reason the admin picks people who are still alive and well? If they are smart enough to pull off 9/11 without a hitch, then why the fuck pick "hijackers" at random without removing those "hijackers" from the population? Wouldn't that be quite obvious? I mean, how hard would it be to round up your alleged "hijackers" before the operation and secretly ship them off to gitmo or execute them somewhere so that they don't turn up alive and well, poking holes in your official story? Seems like a damned simple step to take, to me, to ensure that your official story holds water, you know, if you have the ability to pull the whole thing off without a hitch in the first place.

I mean really...

10/24/2007 7:16:55 PM

If the government was smart enough to pull this off we wouldn't have had to fake the moon landings.

10/24/2007 7:18:42 PM

Quote :

"such a conspiracy would have to be massive"

how many people in the cia do you need to look the other way as the terrorist carry this out on their own. and by the way if you think a government conspiracy is of this scale is impossible, look at iran contra, and im sure you'll see alot of familiar faces in office at the time. oh by the way, as far as W is concerned, its called plausible denyability.

Quote :

"you have to come up with a hell of a lot more than "dubya benefited from it." "

i just raised the question, im not pointing fingers. its just amazing that people have just turned the page, perhaps too much time has passed but i dont think so

Quote :

"Iraq is a fucking CAKEWALK compared to the level of gov't control needed to pull off 9/11"

no its not. if the govt is involved, all they had to do was look the other way, when bin laden was planning this and the cia got wind of it, the higher ups just had to put it aside until it happend. and just to make sure it happend they schedualed one of the larges airforce training excersises on 9/11...

10/24/2007 8:17:58 PM

Plenty of plans were at their bases on 9/11..People love spouting the fact that only 2 or 3 fighters were on alert that day, which maybe true, but on alert means there is a guy in the cockpit ready to be wheels up in 15 min...there were severals squadrons which could have been airborne in a couple hours..which is how it is on a normal day

10/24/2007 10:56:17 PM

Quote :

"Why the fuck would you hit the Pentagon if you intended to launch a war?"

Salt on the wound perhaps? Besides...they hit the 'under renovation' section of the pentagon. So really the infrastructure of the pentagon didn't get affected at all.

From reading any of hooksaws posts...I'm going to go with one of three things...either

A) he's in fact George W. Bush himself, and the lack of leadership in this country would be explained because he's wasting time defending his stupidity on a college message board.

B) hooksaw is a member of the Bush family.

C) hooksaw is an intern being fucked by Bush.


Wasn't there a major military training exercise going on? So everyone was under the impression it was still part of the exercise and not in fact really happening.

[Edited on October 24, 2007 at 11:45 PM. Reason : .]

10/24/2007 11:42:09 PM

Quote :

"Salt on the wound perhaps?"

Do you really need that after flying two aircraft into NYC?

Quote :

"Wasn't there a major military training exercise going on? So everyone was under the impression it was still part of the exercise and not in fact really happening."

How do you mistake an aircraft flying into a building for an "exercise"?

10/25/2007 1:01:52 AM

the point of flying into those places was to target the major monuments associated with the USA




I havent ever posted in these threads and I probably never will again...but I just have to say this and I think i speak for a lot of people.


If you dont believe that 9/11 happened and that it was constructed by a select few people who had the audacity and the perversion to kill over 2500 people to gain profit or whatever

I just say FUCK YOU, fuck you....seriously. How the hell can you say that? are you incredibly stupid? unrealistic? or just someone that sees a stupid ignorant ass selectively edited video and decides OMG I got got.

Fuck you and your stupid views...there were real people that died, real families affected, real buildings that COLLAPSED.

you just choose not to look at the REAL facts and witnesses because you get some sick and perverted kick out of not caring about a fellow mans life. you are some selfish bastards, really you are...conspiracy WHERE THE FUCK IS THE MISSING PLANE? THE PEOPLE ON BOARD!!?? THE MOLE IN EVERY GOVERNMENT PLOT!

this thread gets the JT3bucky FUCK YOU.

10/25/2007 1:16:42 AM

^who are you talking to? who said people didnt die? i know i didnt.

it just makes you feel better to say, that guy is bad, this guy is good, when the reality is that everyone knows the terrorist are bad but nobody knows for sure whos the good guy.

so take a chill pill and stop being so naive, the duty of a free citizen of america is to make sure your government is not screwing you, the way you talk i think north korea would suit you better.

[Edited on October 25, 2007 at 1:30 AM. Reason : .]

10/25/2007 1:29:58 AM

^^ Some of the people in those families think there might have been a conspiracy. It's just people's way of dealing with it. If you're not a huge fan of Bush and don't know enough about the event then this seems very plausible.

[Edited on October 25, 2007 at 1:41 AM. Reason : .]

10/25/2007 1:31:35 AM

Quote :

"don't know enough about the event"

couldnt have said it better

10/25/2007 1:38:40 AM

Quote :

"So Bush would have had to make the decision to kill 50,000 to 100,000 American civilians before orchestrating this kind of attack. Those who believe that he is that evil have serious problems. No, he's not perfect and far from it, but he's not evil."

He seemed willing enough to kill many more Iraqis. I guess you argue he didn't expect so many to die. They were supposed to greet us with flowers.

That said, I don't support the conspiracy theories. I have been briefly tempted. I'm eager to see what comes out in a few decades.

[Edited on October 25, 2007 at 2:04 AM. Reason : d]

10/25/2007 2:03:51 AM

Quote :

"it just makes you feel better to say, that guy is bad, this guy is good, when the reality is that everyone knows the terrorist are bad but nobody knows for sure whos the good guy."

Since when can history be boiled down to bad guy/good guy?

Who's being naive, Kay?

Quote :

"the duty of a free citizen of america is to make sure your government is not screwing you, the way you talk i think north korea would suit you better."

Ah, the classic conspiracist retort that anyone who doesn't suspect government involvement on 9/11 is a sheep who won't dare question the establishment. Do you really want to go down that path with your life? Up until now I held a fairly high opinion of you.

[Edited on October 25, 2007 at 2:39 AM. Reason : .]

10/25/2007 2:33:46 AM

^no, ive never distrusted my govt until now, in fact to say its the govt is a bad generalization, i dont trust the bush administration and the neocons behind it, look how they basically threatened everyone who dissented at the iraq war as being unpatriotic, you know that was a cop out

it seems that alot of you are still in fear of being call that.
and for the last time, im not saying i know who did it, i never said i think bush did it, but there are alot of questions out there that i would like answered

10/25/2007 8:50:37 AM

Just because you are ignorant of or refuse to accept the conclusions of the studies and investigations that have gone on doesn't mean that "there are a lot of questions that need to be answered"

that being said, no, not everything is known about what happened that day and in the run-up to it, as far as what the FBI/CIA/NSA did or did not know about general or specific threats, and what they had relayed to the State Department, the DoD or the President.

What is known, though, is that 4 airplanes were hijacked by 19 Islamic terrorists, 2 hit the WTC which directly caused the subsequent collapses, 1 hit the highly reinforced Pentagon, and 1 crashed in a field. That's pretty fucking cut and dry, but conspiracy theorists refuse to even accept these facts.

10/25/2007 9:05:23 AM

Quote :

"How do you mistake an aircraft flying into a building for an "exercise"?"

unless you are standing infront of the fucking buildings and can see the aircraft for yourself...you will assume its part of the training exercise that you are already on. Especially since the exercise was very similar to what actually happened. Clearly you have no clue as to what training exercises consist of.

ignorance is bliss. All of you Bush supporters are cowards.

Quote :

"What is known, though, is that 4 airplanes were hijacked by 19 Islamic terrorists, 2 hit the WTC which directly caused the subsequent collapses, 1 hit the highly reinforced Pentagon, and 1 crashed in a field. That's pretty fucking cut and dry, but conspiracy theorists refuse to even accept these facts."

cut and dry? lol. Terrorists go from hi-jacking 1 plane and making it fly to cyprus, libya or wherever to hi-jacking 4 planes at the same time and crashing them into their targets within a very close time span? I don't know about your talents as a pilot but flying a jet airliner for the first time is quite difficult let alone navigating it into a fucking narrow building (narrow relative to how fast these planes travel). One mistake and that would throw the plane off course by a large margin.

I can see why you people live in fear if you think these Terrorists are mass-murdering geniuses.

[Edited on October 27, 2007 at 10:04 AM. Reason : .]

10/27/2007 9:59:54 AM

^ what the fuck is your point? Are you now going so far as to suggest that 1) there were professional pilots (presumably government paid/trained) that flew them planes, or 2) ummm..... there were no planes that crashed into those targets?

all i'm saying that is cut-and-dry is that 4 plane were hijacked and 4 planes were crashed. Are you disputing that much?

much less, i've held this opinion since 9/12/01 - it doesn't take a genius or a criminal mastermind to buy some fucking plane tickets on planes that leave around the same time. Why does everyone think that what Al Qaeda did was only capable by geniuses? Really - here's what they did. They got on Orbitz and figured out the daily schedule for flights from the East Coast to West Coast. Or faa.org, or united.com, or americanairlines.com - it's not too damned hard to find 4 planes and figure out from where and when they are leaving. Then they bought some plane tickets. Then some guys got on the planes, killed some people and took control. Wow..... i'm impressed.
If one person on each plane had any decent flight and navigation training, i don't see why it's hard to imagine they could figure out how to get to the two biggest buildings in the biggest city in the US. The hardest part of the whole operation, i imagine, was getting the guys into the US, but if a million Mexicans can figure out how to do it every year, I guess a well funded organization could figure out how to get 20 in.

10/27/2007 12:19:20 PM

If this was a government conspiracy...why attack only yourself?

Sure, two planes into the WTC..but we need some allies, throw a couple planes into One Canada Square in England, First Canadian Place in Toronto, etc...

10/27/2007 5:06:38 PM

^^I'm guessing you also think that once they hi-jacked the planes...each terrorist pulled out his handy garman and put in "WTC" for destination.

^^and not to mention their last 100000000000 attempts of terrorism involved pipe bombs, suicide bombers, and vans packed with explosives....

Osama: Alright guys, its time to up our game here. America isn't paying attention to us!

[Edited on October 27, 2007 at 5:23 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2007 5:21:39 PM

^ what do you suggest happened on the planes.

seriously. i want to know.

10/27/2007 6:50:10 PM

I don't know... maybe something along the lines of setting up an ILS beacon on the towers so that the plains could succesfully navigate into them. Its not that easy to fly a Passenger airliner into a designated building. Especially at the speeds they travel. What do you think these terrorists did? Ok, NYC is South East of us...lets just fly in that direction.

"Mohammed, you look out the left wing. Omar, you look over the right wing... who ever spots the WTC first, holla!"

These guys didn't just hop on a plane and manage to successfully hi-jack and crash into their targets without help from some where.

Quote :

"seriously. i want to know."

you sound like a "W The President" kind of person. How many of those stickers do you have on your car?

[Edited on October 27, 2007 at 7:03 PM. Reason : asdf]

10/27/2007 7:01:36 PM