give it up for page 3

9/1/2008 5:27:03 PM

not giving up i am just never going to agree with your outrageous ideas that no one else has come in here to defend.

[Edited on September 1, 2008 at 6:53 PM. Reason : .]

9/1/2008 6:47:30 PM

i know. it's outrageous to treat criminals like criminals. CRAZY!

9/1/2008 6:54:23 PM

who the fuck is going to pick fruit if we kick out all the illegals?

9/1/2008 8:44:42 PM

more illegals

9/1/2008 9:19:33 PM

If there is less people to feed then why do we need such quantities of fruit picked? The World's and the USAs population is too high. There are a limited amount of resources to go around and the more people there are the less resources per person there is. Do you all want to live in an overcrowded country?

[Edited on September 1, 2008 at 9:23 PM. Reason : .]

9/1/2008 9:23:15 PM

wow, you sound like the 11-year-old on PLR... yeah, I've been playing GTA4 recently

9/1/2008 9:24:33 PM

^^ solution is to send the illegals to the corn fields we're building on the moon.

or something like that.

9/3/2008 7:28:07 AM

hello my name leroy seung. i immagrant from Seoul Korea. im come here to help for job. is America need help if immigrant. im learn english well. no rite well. talk very well . America have good work for me the immigra ts. very good for econmy. we help you very well. education is good. im for to study english if 4 moths.

9/5/2008 8:08:56 PM

^ You might want to refine these sentences:

Quote :

" im come here to help for job. is America need help if immigrant. "

Because I can't tell at all what you're trying to say.

9/5/2008 8:15:56 PM

hello friend. I for to study computer science. injeenir. help family in Seoul. America need imigrat work. We very good people. no what trouble. only for to study. work them take money to korea. thank you. for help.

9/5/2008 8:22:09 PM

worst alias ever

9/5/2008 9:27:35 PM

^ I agree

typically, writing skills are better than speaking skills in non-native english speakers, when they learn in a formalized setting (which a korean would almost certainly have-- unlike a hispanic). There are other clues too, but I don't believe this Leroy is real.

9/6/2008 1:07:40 AM

holy shit, we agree on something! oh, and there aint no Korean named "leroy." not even a "reroy"

9/6/2008 1:11:28 AM

we've agreed on lots in the past, you've just gone nuts recently during this presidential election

9/6/2008 1:17:45 AM

bump

4/21/2010 12:20:58 PM

Quote :

"CNN) -- Now that Arizona lawmakers have passed what's considered some of the toughest immigration legislation in the country, other states are watching to see whether they should follow in the state's footsteps or stand back. Arizona's bill orders immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them. Critics, including immigrant advocates and the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona, are concerned that the legislation will foster racial profiling, arguing that most police officers don't have enough training to look past race while investigating a person's legal status. The bill made it through the state Senate on Monday after it was passed by the state House last week. It's now awaiting the signature of Republican Gov. Jan Brewer. Supporters of the measure expect her to sign it. Latino members of Congress are calling on Brewer to veto it."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/21/arizona.immigration.bill/index.html?hpt=T2

4/21/2010 12:21:42 PM

I, for one, am tired of paying low prices for produce and meat.

4/21/2010 12:44:07 PM

It sure would suck to be an American citizen of Mexican ancestry in Arizona. You'd be pulled over by the cops all the time and you wouldn't have any "alien registration documents" because guess what, you're a citizen. I guess if I fell into that category I'd just go ahead and get me some forged alien registration documents to avoid the hassle.

Quote :

"It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them."

Knowingly transport them? So you could give your neighbor a ride to the grocery store and get thrown in jail. Of course you'd have to know that they were illegal. They could get that guy that wanted to beat up the Hulk to come in and determine whether or not you knew your neighbor was legal at the time you gave them that ride to the grocery store.

4/22/2010 12:28:57 PM

^That's a 7 figure lawsuit waiting to happen. But I'm sure all it would take would be to show them your driver's license so I don't think it would be a big deal.

Note, I'm against this facist bullshit just not terribly worried about legal citizens being detained or deported. Now they'll probably be harassed by the minutemen and whacko cops.

4/22/2010 12:33:35 PM

^^ just show them your driver's license. what's the big deal

Quote :

"Knowingly transport them? So you could give your neighbor a ride to the grocery store and get thrown in jail. Of course you'd have to know that they were illegal. They could get that guy that wanted to beat up the Hulk to come in and determine whether or not you knew your neighbor was legal at the time you gave them that ride to the grocery store."

I mean, pretty much the same dilemma when trying to prosecute hate crimes.

[Edited on April 24, 2010 at 2:51 PM. Reason : s]

4/24/2010 2:50:09 PM

Quote :

"Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed. An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate."

http://tinyurl.com/2g4u8v5

This is the big deal. This guy (born in the U.S., mind you) was handcuffed because he did not have his birth certificate on his person while driving. CDL and social security didn't cut it.

Not to mention the fact that this will obviously be applied unequally to anybody with brown skin. Which is the entire point of the law.

4/24/2010 5:39:32 PM

desperate times call for desperate measures

70% of the state approves of the law.


something tells me that there's a reason they're freaking out

4/24/2010 5:53:55 PM

hooray for tyranny of the majority. glad mass panic/paranoia is what makes laws now in Arizona. can't wait for a few years when hispanic people are in the majority to see what happens in Arizona.

[Edited on April 24, 2010 at 6:00 PM. Reason : mm that is some good trollin' ]

4/24/2010 6:00:27 PM

Hey, I'm just saying... You try being the state that is worst hit by all the negative consequences of illegal immigration and tell me what kind of laws you come up with.

4/24/2010 6:05:47 PM

^ you'd live in Texas, and have a fucking idiot for a governor.

4/24/2010 6:09:13 PM

my painter got a call from his cousin today that lives in Arizona.

Guess what... they are headed this way!

4/24/2010 10:00:12 PM

It's going to be struck down. Shit like this is a reminder that very little separates our general population from others that were complicit in abhorrent injustice. Good thing our system of government is designed so that it's hard to do anything too drastic.

4/24/2010 11:26:57 PM

^^ that's kind of the point... Arizona is like, "ok guys time to move on"

4/25/2010 1:41:16 AM

Haben Sie Ihren Papers?

4/25/2010 2:41:11 AM

^dammit. i came in here to post that.

4/25/2010 3:09:01 AM

Godwin's Law. I win.

4/25/2010 8:54:12 AM

Quote :

"desperate times call for desperate measures"

What, exactly, is so desperate about the situation in Arizona?

But no, this is great. Aside from all the other problems with this country's immigration policy, now we have a law that lets the cops arrest people for being brown and not carrying a dossier of all their official papers since birth.

4/25/2010 11:34:08 PM

almost a year ago my extended family rolled 3 Sienas deep from Orange County to the Grand Canyon.

glad we did that shit then - would be a pain in the ass if we all had to carry two forms of ID.

4/25/2010 11:58:12 PM

Quote :

""desperate times call for desperate measures""

keep it up

4/26/2010 12:02:18 AM

amnesty is not a viable option.

arresting every brown person "without a dossier" is not a viable option.

there is some middle ground though...immigration laws need to be enforced. we cannot sustain floods of people coming here and not contributing to the "pot" via taxes. by the same token, immigrants need to know how to come to this country legally and the red tape to do so needs to be cut.

I have no problem with aggressive enforcement of immigration laws, provided the immigrants are given fair opportunity to come here legally and speedily.

4/26/2010 10:24:18 AM

Quote :

"we cannot sustain floods of people coming here and not contributing to the "pot" via taxes."

As has been explained over and over in this forum, illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive back in benefits. That's what happens when you pay sales taxes, property taxes (generally through rent), and frequently income tax, but DON'T receive medicare, medicaid, or social security.

4/26/2010 12:31:27 PM

Hell, I'm a citizen and I pay sales, income and property tax and I don't get the benefit of Medicaid, Medicare, or Social Security.

Not that I'm complaining, just thought it was funny.

4/26/2010 12:51:47 PM

^LOL, I thought the same.

And lets be honest, every illegal person in the states is WORKING and NOT on any govt dime. All of them. Once you can accept that fact, you can talk to a lib about immigration.

4/26/2010 1:28:30 PM

Both of you presumably will receive those things in the future, because you're citizens.

Quote :

"And lets be honest, every illegal person in the states is WORKING and NOT on any govt dime. "

Yeah, I said "every illegal." All your opponents talk about "every illegal." They are a monolithic group in which we recognize no variation.

Don't be such a shit. As usual, these things are on average. There are exceptions to every rule, but what's the trend?

2007, White House Council of Economic Advisers:

Quote :

"The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. Projections of future taxes and government spending are subject to uncertainty, but a careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would contribute about $80,000 more in taxes (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services."

Center for Immigration Studies report, 2004 (these guys are against illegal immigration):

Quote :

"The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households"

4/26/2010 2:35:25 PM

nooooooo, FACTS. I'M MELTING, MEEEEELTIIINNG

4/26/2010 7:56:19 PM

Quote :

"I have no problem with aggressive enforcement of immigration laws, provided the immigrants are given fair opportunity to come here legally and speedily."

Define “aggressive enforcement.” Illegal immigrants aren’t the boogey man some on the right want you to believe. Joe Arpaio, if you recall, was in the news for training his county deputies to do immigration enforcement. The effect of this policy has been very detrimental to safety in his jurisdiction.

Quote :

"The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office is responsible for vitally important law-enforcement functions in one of the largest counties in the nation. It defines its core missions as law-enforcement services, support services, and detention. MCSO falls seriously short of fulfilling its mission in all three areas. Although MCSO is adept at self-promotion and is an unquestionably “tough” law-enforcement agency, under its watch violent crime rates recently have soared, both in absolute terms and relative to other jurisdictions. It has diverted resources away from basic law-enforcement functions to highly publicized immigration sweeps, which are ineffective in policing illegal immigration and in reducing crime generally, and to extensive trips by MCSO officials to Honduras for purposes that are nebulous at best. Profligate spending on those diversions helped produce a financial crisis in late 2007 that forced MCSO to curtail or reduce important law-enforcement functions. In terms of support services, MCSO has allowed a huge backlog of outstanding warrants to accumulate, and has seriously disadvantaged local police departments by closing satellite booking facilities. MCSO’s detention facilities are subject to costly lawsuits for excessive use of force and inadequate medical services. Compounding the substantive problems are chronically poor record-keeping and reporting of statistics, coupled with resistance to public disclosure."

- http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/Common/Img/Mission%20Unaccomplished.pdf
The Goldwater Institute was founded in 1988 with Barry Goldwater’s blessing.

It’s one thing to be vigilant in your enforcement of laws, but it’s another thing to let racism and xenophobia guide your thinking. This law won’t do anything to reduce actual crime. It’ll just divert scare resources from solving ACTUAL crimes.

4/26/2010 8:23:49 PM

Quote :

"Both of you presumably will receive those things in the future"

I doubt it, not with the way things are looking and the fact I save money.

Clearly we need immigration, esp to pay for the boomers, however going about that is the issue. Yes, costs should be a concern but so is rule of law. I would say the majority of illegals in this country are hard working people that just want to make a better life. But you cannot ignore the negative effects as well, simply look at the border states.

I was simply using the same broad brush that many on here use to paint those that are against amnesty. We do need immigration, however if you oppose the current laws try to change that. However, the border and our immigration laws is just another example of the failure of our federal govt. imo

4/26/2010 8:32:34 PM

That 2004 Center for Immigration Studies report:

Quote :

" Illegals Create Large Net Costs. The bottom portion of Table 2 adds together the total tax payments and costs illegals impose on the federal budget. When defense spending is not considered, illegal households are estimated to impose costs on the federal treasury of $6,949 a year or 58 percent of what other households received. When defense spending is in- cluded, their costs are only 46 percent those of other households. However, they pay only 28 percent as much in taxes as non-illegal households. As a result, the estimated net cost per illegal household was $2,736. Whether one sees this fiscal deficit as resulting from low tax payments or heavy use of services is a matter of perspective. As already discussed, illegal households comprise 3.6 percent of the total population, but as Table 2 shows they ac- count for an estimated 0.9 percent of taxes paid and 1.4 percent of costs. Thus, both their payments and costs are significantly less than their share of the total population. Since they use so much less in federal services than other households, it probably makes the most sense to see the fiscal deficit as resulting from low tax payments rather than heavy use of public services. Total Deficit Created by Illegals. If the estimated net fiscal drain of $2,736 a year that each illegal household imposes on the federal treasury is multiplied by the nearly three million illegal households, the total cost comes to $10.4 billion a year. Whether one considers this to be a large sum or not is, of course, a matter of perspective. But, this figure is unambigu-ously negative and certainly not trivial. It is also worth remembering that these figures are only for the federal government and do not include any costs at the state or local level, where the impact is likely to be significant."

4/26/2010 8:36:24 PM

^ that seems to suggest that the solution is to tax them… somehow…

Not waste time and money with detaining or arresting American citizens who are brown in the chance you’ll find an illegal.

[Edited on April 26, 2010 at 9:08 PM. Reason : ]

4/26/2010 9:07:10 PM

Sure, if they made more money they would probably contribute more taxes. However, I tend to be pretty pessimistic on the economic mobility of the current generation of unskilled immigrants.

4/26/2010 9:17:57 PM

^ huh? You seem to be implying that you’d be okay with them if they could make more money. But they would make more money if they were given legal status.

The corollary to your argument would be that if people wanted to pay less taxes, then their action should be to make less money, which is senseless.

And finally, that study doesn’t seem like it compares the illegals to legal citizens in their same income level, which is a deep flaw if that’s the case.

4/26/2010 9:32:51 PM

Quote :

"We do need immigration, however if you oppose the current laws try to change that."

I do try to change them. Until they are changed for the better, I will wholeheartedly endorse people violating them, because they are horrifically unjust and xenophobic, they inflict vast unnecessary costs on everybody involved, they are impossible to enforce, and generally do nothing remotely positive except make ill-informed and/or bigoted and/or hypocritical and/or political hack people feel a little better about themselves for no good reason.

Wintermute -- As the report goes on to admit, a large portion of the costs incurred relate to educating children of immigrants born on US soil. Even if all of the children weren't citizens, you can't have it both ways -- either its "They need to learn to speak English!" or its "They need to not be allowed to go to school."

I guess you could say "They need to all go home!" but if we're playing the Wish-For-Impossible-Things game then I would like to cast my vote for me having a three-way with Scarlett Johansson and Pam from The Office. (To say nothing of the fact that right now kids born in this country are citizens whether you like it or not)

4/27/2010 12:18:12 AM

This Arizona law smacks too much of a "Are your papers in order?" mentality. Stopping people to see if they are here illegally will be a wasteful and unsuccessful way to control immigration. The police have enough to do to maintain the fragile illusion of civilization.

Congress should be setting up a temporary worker program. Make it easier for hard working immigrants to get in. There should be some way to fix the illegal immigration problem that doesn't put more weight on our teetering welfare state.

4/27/2010 1:07:06 AM

It would be more cost-effective to brand an "I" on the foreheads of illegal immigrants.

4/27/2010 7:46:17 PM