Quote :

"how do you determine someone's contribution to society? Is this calculation based strictly on earnings and potential earnings?"

I don't care how much they contribute as long as they don't leech off of society.

3/19/2008 12:34:30 PM

Quote :

"Not that hard to figure out as it's an extremely unoriginal sentiment popularized by the Nazis. Somebody call it..."

Godwin's law at it's finest. If you want to care for your 79 year old grandfather then go for it, but when someone takes money against my will to take care of him that's when I have a problem. Especially if its obvious the person has discretionary income for luxuries such as cigarettes.

3/19/2008 12:36:36 PM

Quote :

"David0603: Especially if its obvious the person has discretionary income for luxuries such as cigarettes."

For these determinations, we have to look at income, not what people are spending their income on. If someone makes $1,000/month and chooses to scrimp on clothes/toiletries/gas in order to smoke cigarettes, that's their right...they still get food stamps. They could cut out the smoking, but they're still only bringing a grand so they still get foodstamps. A grand is a grand is a grand, no matter what you spend it on.

3/19/2008 12:47:23 PM

Quote :

"If someone makes $1,000/month and chooses to scrimp on clothes/toiletries/gas in order to smoke cigarettes, that's their right"

Agreed. But if this is the case, I do not think they should receive food stamps.

3/19/2008 1:03:21 PM

Quote :

"I don't care how much they contribute as long as they don't leech off of society."

Everyone leeches off society in one form or another. So what is your metric for determining one's worth to society.

Quote :

"Godwin's law at it's finest. If you want to care for your 79 year old grandfather then go for it, but when someone takes money against my will to take care of him that's when I have a problem. Especially if its obvious the person has discretionary income for luxuries such as cigarettes."

Godwin's Law only applies if it is an undue application or comparison to Hitlerism or Stalinism. An argument for Social Darwinism is not an undue comparison. I also find it ironic that an individual who is either currently in college or just out of college is begrudging an individual who worked his entire life, lost his wife to cancer, almost lost his life to cancer and lives off $900 a month, for smoking cigarettes and possibly doting on his grand children. Until you get off the government teet yourself, quit complaining about a 79 year old man who obviously needs government help. As it stands right now, that man is a far better person and a far better contributor to society than you can ever wish to be with your current attitude.

Quote :

"Agreed. But if this is the case, I do not think they should receive food stamps."

Let's see, I smoke cigarettes, at most I spend $5.00 a day on a pack (I don't smoke the cheap shit) and yet, I eat more than $5.00 worth of food a day.

[Edited on March 19, 2008 at 1:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2008 1:25:28 PM

How do I leach leech off society?

3/19/2008 1:33:29 PM

Quote :

"How do I leach leech off society?"

are you a student? Do you use the road system? Do you go out at night and go to areas lit by public lighting?

3/19/2008 1:35:13 PM

Quote :

"I also find it ironic"

How is that ironic?

Quote :

"Until you get off the government teet yourself, quit complaining about a 79 year old man who obviously needs government help. "

How am I on the government teet?

Quote :

"As it stands right now, that man is a far better person and a far better contributor to society than you can ever wish to be with your current attitude."

How so?

3/19/2008 1:36:06 PM

are you a student?
-no


Do you use the road system?
-Yes, I pay taxes

Do you go out at night and go to areas lit by public lighting?
-Yes, I pay taxes

3/19/2008 1:36:58 PM

You went to a state school, think about it for one goddamned second.

3/19/2008 1:37:23 PM

Right. Which are paid for by taxes so I get education so I will get a good job and return this contribution via taxes.

3/19/2008 1:38:46 PM

Quote :

"Right. Which are paid for by taxes so I get education so I will get a good job and return this contribution via taxes."

And who subsidized your education while you were in school? And who continues to subsidize your student loans?

And the fact that you pay taxes doesn't change one goddamned thing either; because the amount you pay in taxes does not come anywhere near the actual cost you have on society.

3/19/2008 1:41:18 PM

Quote :

"the amount you pay in taxes does not come anywhere near the actual cost you have on society."

Not now, but maybe by the time I turn 79. Regardless, I'm contributing far more than the 79 year old and assuming that I live that long I plan on contributing far more when I am his age as well.

3/19/2008 1:43:28 PM

Quote :

"Not now, but maybe by the time I turn 79. Regardless, I'm contributing far more than the 79 year old and assuming that I live that long I plan on contributing far more when I am his age as well."

Not at all, because at every year you are at a net negative on your overall repayment to the government for goods and services you use just for that year alone.

Every year he pays his property taxes, which serves to subsidize the education of the children in Johnston County, he managed to make enough money in his lifetime to pay off his property, only to have that work pull away from him as a result of he and his wife contracting cancer. During his life, until he retire, and most likely went on disability, contributed to society. He paid his taxes, he went to work, he subsidized your college education. I don't think you quite realize how fucking much it costs the tax payers of North Carolina to send your ass to school not only during college, but for k-12 as well. and despite the fact that this man has been a contributing member of society for at least 50 years you are going to sit there in your little fucking cocoon world and denigrate him because for reasons outside of his control he is forced to get food stamps. You sir cannot play by the rules of society. You sir are the waste on society. I'd rather live in world populated by the Earl Rudds of the world then to have a world filled with self-serving douche bags like you, who lack the common decency and lack the understanding of the sacrifices and contributions previous generations made so that you can sit there on your computer and act all smug and all the while denigrate the individuals who made it possible for you to sit around and be a complete penis. In other words, Fuck off ass cunt.

3/19/2008 1:53:39 PM

Haha. Whatever you say kid. I plan on having a healthy nest egg by that age as well as health insurance and I'll have life insurance at some point as well. The 79 year old didn't plan ahead so he got fucked over. He was probably one of the millions of people who prefers to live for today instead of tomorrow going throughout life without the foresight to actually prepare for the unknown.

3/19/2008 2:01:35 PM

Quote :

"Whoa, that's fucked up."

whats fucked up???

parents not claiming me as a dependent or the financial aid office screwing me over.

[Edited on March 19, 2008 at 2:10 PM. Reason : l]

3/19/2008 2:07:56 PM

Quote :

"Haha. Whatever you say kid. I plan on having a healthy nest egg by that age as well as health insurance and I'll have life insurance at some point as well. The 79 year old didn't plan ahead so he got fucked over. He was probably one of the millions of people who prefers to live for today instead of tomorrow going throughout life without the foresight to actually prepare for the unknown."

I get it, you are some naive new college graduate. You think you've seen the entire world. You go one day to the next getting off on the smell of your own farts. You assume people don't make a lot of money because they are lazy. You also assume that those without a lot of money don't have a lot of money because they weren't wise or thrifty.

here is a clue, North Carolina does not mandate that health insurance cover Chemotherapy or cancer medication, only 4 and 3 states do so respectively. So even if you do have health insurance, odds are it won't cover your cancer treatment. Furthermore, not everyone is capable of preparing for the unknown. You can argue that this man had prepared for the unknown, the only problem was the unknown was past his breaking point. He had to refinance his home and property in order to pay for both he and his wife's cancer treatment.

Until you have the facts, quit acting like a pompous fucking dick bag.

3/19/2008 2:11:24 PM

Quote :

"here is a clue, North Carolina does not mandate that health insurance cover Chemotherapy or cancer medication, only 4 and 3 states do so respectively. So even if you do have health insurance, odds are it won't cover your cancer treatment. Furthermore, not everyone is capable of preparing for the unknown. You can argue that this man had prepared for the unknown, the only problem was the unknown was past his breaking point. He had to refinance his home and property in order to pay for both he and his wife's cancer treatment."

If she had life insurance the guy would be doing fine right now.

3/19/2008 2:15:35 PM

Quote :

"If she had life insurance the guy would be doing fine right now."

life insurance is extremely limited in what they will pay out. It is based upon wages etc and if you are retired your life insurance payout is drastically reduced. Likewise, certain conditions are not covered by life insurance and for the normal american, life insurance is an unnecessary policy. Don't get deceived by the advertisements.

[Edited on March 19, 2008 at 2:42 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2008 2:34:23 PM

Quote :

"the unknown was past his breaking point."

What does that mean?

3/19/2008 2:47:21 PM

Quote :

"What does that mean?"

It means, you can plan for the unknown, but sometimes the unknown costs a whole hell lot more than you can plan for. It's pretty fucking straight forward

3/19/2008 2:51:15 PM

^like the Iraq War?

3/19/2008 2:51:45 PM

Don't bring that shit into this thread.

3/19/2008 2:53:02 PM

What shit?

3/19/2008 2:55:03 PM

I'm talking to Twista.

3/19/2008 3:04:23 PM

nm

[Edited on March 19, 2008 at 3:12 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2008 3:05:14 PM

Let's assume for a second the guy had a large nest egg that got depleted when his wife got cancer. What about the HUGE majority of society unprepared for old age. What about the people that go on food stamps not because of something like cancer, but just because they are lazy fucks. Because they buy huge houses with option arms and max out all their credit cards?

3/19/2008 3:07:19 PM

Quote :

"Let's assume for a second the guy had a large nest egg that got depleted when his wife got cancer. What about the HUGE majority of society unprepared for old age. What about the people that go on food stamps not because of something like cancer, but just because they are lazy fucks. Because they buy huge houses with option arms and max out all their credit cards?"

First of all, both of them got cancer, not just one. Secondly, back up your wild assertions.

3/19/2008 3:17:01 PM

So, you think most people on food stamps worked long and hard all their lives and scrimped and save to have a nice retirement only to have that dream crushed by something like cancer?

3/19/2008 3:29:49 PM

Quote :

"For these determinations, we have to look at income, not what people are spending their income on. If someone makes $1,000/month and chooses to scrimp on clothes/toiletries/gas in order to smoke cigarettes, that's their right...they still get food stamps. They could cut out the smoking, but they're still only bringing a grand so they still get foodstamps. A grand is a grand is a grand, no matter what you spend it on."

But there's a difference between that grand coming from a job and that grand coming from the public. Sorry. If your basic needs (and food is a basic need) are being paid for by the public, you shouldn't get to choose what you spend your money on. Anyone on public assistance should have their purchases poured over like a corporate expense account and any unapproved purchases get deducted from your benefits. If you want to smoke, you do it on your own dime. It doesn't matter that they would still get food stamps even without the smoking, it's the fact that they are getting government assistance while actively engaging in an activity that it harmful to their financial situation.

3/19/2008 4:42:50 PM

Quote :

"So, you think most people on food stamps worked long and hard all their lives and scrimped and save to have a nice retirement only to have that dream crushed by something like cancer?"

I never said that. But it is true, the majority of food stamp recipients work hard their entire lives. Not everyone has the opportunity to make a vast fortune as you seem to think.

Quote :

"But there's a difference between that grand coming from a job and that grand coming from the public. Sorry. If your basic needs (and food is a basic need) are being paid for by the public, you shouldn't get to choose what you spend your money on. Anyone on public assistance should have their purchases poured over like a corporate expense account and any unapproved purchases get deducted from your benefits. If you want to smoke, you do it on your own dime. It doesn't matter that they would still get food stamps even without the smoking, it's the fact that they are getting government assistance while actively engaging in an activity that it harmful to their financial situation."

People aren't getting $1000 in food stamps. Christ Almighty, a requirement to get food stamps is that you are currently employed working x numbers a month or receiving SSI benefits. What's next, mandate people have their homes set at a certain temperature and where they can live?

[Edited on March 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2008 4:44:04 PM

Quote :

"I never said that. But it is true, the majority of food stamp recipients work hard their entire lives. Not everyone has the opportunity to make a vast fortune as you seem to think."

Ok, maybe I phrased that wrong. Someone who works at Wendys may work hard, but if you work there 50 years without ever bothering to better yourself than why is that my problem?

Quote :

"What's next, mandate people have their homes set at a certain temperature and where they can live? "

Pretty sure it was posted in some thread about how someone's friend lived in govt housing and they kept the heat on 80 in the winter b/c they weren't paying for it. Hell yes lets force them to set a certain temp if I am picking up the tab.

3/19/2008 4:56:39 PM

Quote :

"Ok, maybe I phrased that wrong. Someone who works at Wendys may work hard, but if you work there 50 years without ever bothering to better yourself than why is that my problem?"

Guess what numbnuts, someone has to be our janitors, our truck drivers, etc.

Quote :

" Pretty sure it was posted in some thread about how someone's friend lived in govt housing and they kept the heat on 80 in the winter b/c they weren't paying for it. Hell yes lets force them to set a certain temp if I am picking up the tab."

I have like this friend who like posted in this like thread and like I can't really point to anything, but like this friend, like posted in this thread.

3/19/2008 4:59:18 PM

So, I'll reword it. Yes, they should regulate temperature to prevent people in govt housing from abusing it b/c the people who are there are probably the exact type of people who would abuse such a thing.

Quote :

"Guess what numbnuts, someone has to be our janitors, our truck drivers, etc. "

Yes, and some people don't get to have luxuries such as smoking.

3/19/2008 5:03:50 PM

Quote :

"So, I'll reword it. Yes, they should regulate temperature to prevent people in govt housing from abusing it b/c the people who are there are probably the exact type of people who would abuse such a thing."

Yes, all poor people are shady mischievous people. Your social darwinism does not hold. Likewise, there are far more poor people living outside of section 8 housing than are living in it.

Quote :

"Yes, and some people don't get to have luxuries such as smoking."

And no matter who you are or how much money you make, everyone has a vice. So cry me a river about this individual smoking.

3/19/2008 5:09:19 PM

Quote :

"Yes, all poor people are shady mischievous people. Your social darwinism does not hold. Likewise, there are far more poor people living outside of section 8 housing than are living in it."

I used to live in an all inclusive place and I damn sure kept it warm and toasty in the winter and nice and cool in the summer. Why the hell would you not do such a thing? What does more poor people living outside section 8 housing have to do with anything.

Quote :

"And no matter who you are or how much money you make, everyone has a vice. So cry me a river about this individual smoking."

Not so. Plenty of people have quick smoking before.

3/19/2008 5:29:54 PM

Quote :

"Okay, I'm confused. You didn't qualify for financial aid, but you had to take out loans? Did you go to a private school? And, yeah, being married generally gets good stuff sent your way because you're supposedly helping to create a more stable society by being married. "

No, I went to App then NC state. My parents make too much for me to qualify for financial aid, so I took out loans.

Damn, I should have just married someone on paper so I could be in less debt now.

3/19/2008 5:36:11 PM

Quote :

"I used to live in an all inclusive place and I damn sure kept it warm and toasty in the winter and nice and cool in the summer. Why the hell would you not do such a thing? What does more poor people living outside section 8 housing have to do with anything."

don't try to equate your actions to the actions of everyone else.

Quote :

" Not so. Plenty of people have quick smoking before."

what does that have to do with anything?

Quote :

"No, I went to App then NC state. My parents make too much for me to qualify for financial aid, so I took out loans."

I'm sure those loans are subsidized by the government.

3/19/2008 5:46:03 PM

Quote :

"what does that have to do with anything?"

You were the one that was defending him to have the luxury of smoking by calling it a vice and stating that everyone has vices such as these.

3/19/2008 5:48:08 PM

3/19/2008 5:56:34 PM

Quote :

"People aren't getting $1000 in food stamps. Christ Almighty, a requirement to get food stamps is that you are currently employed working x numbers a month or receiving SSI benefits. "

No they're not, but say they're getting $300 in food stamps a month (which by the way is a decent budget for two full grown adults), if he smokes $3 a day in cigarettes, thats $90 a month in cigarettes or nearly 1/3 of his food budget. Now I don't know about you, but if I had two cancer bills to be paying off, plus was so bad off that I needed food stamps just to get by, I'd sure as hell be dropping the $90 a month habit. He's spending a 10th of his SS income on cigarettes alone. That's a hell of a vice.

Quote :

"What's next, mandate people have their homes set at a certain temperature and where they can live? "

Why not? If you're living off of my money, why the hell shouldn't I have a say in how you spend that money? If you want to live the way you want, where you want and how you want, do it with your money.

Quote :

"And no matter who you are or how much money you make, everyone has a vice. So cry me a river about this individual smoking."

But not everyone is getting free food at the expense of the tax payers, while pissing away a 10th of their income on their vice.

Quote :

"don't try to equate your actions to the actions of everyone else. "

Are you seriously suggesting that when people don't bear the full cost of using a resource that their usage of that resource doesn't go up? So if you didn't have to pay for your own gas, you wouldn't drive more? If you didn't have to pay for your own heating, you wouldn't keep the house at 70 in the winter rather than 68? Cost never factors into any decisions you make as to whether or not you will do something?

Look, I know there is never going to be an elimination of all public aid and works (nor do I particularly care for there to be) but if you are going to be on public aid, especially aid that's targeted at one specific type of person, then I don't see why there shouldn't be rules and regulations on the lifestyle you will lead while on that aid. No one should be forced to finance your way of life anymore than you should be forced to finance mine.

3/19/2008 11:18:36 PM

^Obviously, we disagree.

I believe that if somebody is only making $1,000/month, but they manage to afford a couple dime bags, a night at the club/bar, and cigarettes (roll their own?) on that, they should still qualify for food stamps. Just like the guy who makes $1,000/month and doesn't do any of those things.

I will not pay taxes in order for the government to create some agency to oversee all the purchases of the impoverished. For one thing, it's cheaper just to give the chain smoker his $192 in food stamps. Plus, I don't trust myself or anyone else to be the ultimate judge of what's appropriate and what's not.

It blows my mind that you would be so arrogant as to criticize the choices of this man. Life loves to throw the curve ball. And I hope you're really as good as you think you are. Because it's tough to bounce back when your main investment is in being better than everybody else.

3/20/2008 11:41:41 AM

I'm as good as I think I am.

3/20/2008 12:00:37 PM

I'm just particularly dismayed because Earl Rudd is the kind of guy y'all would have been all over celebrating. Just working hard and making ends meet without any assistance.

But now that he's old and caught one too many bad flops, you want him to die.

That is crazy.

3/20/2008 12:10:49 PM

Quote :

"I believe that if somebody is only making $1,000/month, but they manage to afford a couple dime bags, a night at the club/bar, and cigarettes (roll their own?) on that, they should still qualify for food stamps. Just like the guy who makes $1,000/month and doesn't do any of those things."

If they can afford those things, then they can afford food, that's the issue at hand here. This guy isn't starving because chips are cheaper than veggies (they aren't), or because life threw him a couple curve balls (though that helped put him in the fincancial situation he's in), he's starving because he CHOOSES to spend a tenth of his income on cigarettes. $90 is about 18 days of food, even if he fucking eats McDonalds for lunch and dinner.

He's starving because despite the fact that his income is only 1k a month, he's still trying to live as if his income were 2k a month and he didn't have his medical bills. This isn't life throwing curve balls, this is self destructive choices.

Quote :

"I will not pay taxes in order for the government to create some agency to oversee all the purchases of the impoverished."

But you will pay taxes to allow the impoverished to collect tax money while simultaneously blowing their own money on excesses. If his vice were a hooker a month, would you feel the same? What if he blew his money on donating to president Bush's campaign every month? What if instead he just took $90 cash and lit it on fire?

Quote :

"Plus, I don't trust myself or anyone else to be the ultimate judge of what's appropriate and what's not."

And that is the ultimate problem with government charity. It is the responsibility of the government to do exactly that if they are going to spend tax payer money on someone. If you are going to take tax payer money to pay for your basic needs, then you damn well better not be spending the money you do have on anything other than basic needs.

Quote :

"It blows my mind that you would be so arrogant as to criticize the choices of this man."

Why? What makes it any worse for me to criticize this guy for spending $100 of his $1000 income on cigarettes as opposed to me criticizing some idiot with a 30k income taking on a $300 car payment? It doesn't matter what your income is, living above your means is stupid. It doesn't matter if you make 1k a month or 1k a minute, if you're living above your income, you're a fucking moron.

Quote :

"Life loves to throw the curve ball. And I hope you're really as good as you think you are. Because it's tough to bounce back when your main investment is in being better than everybody else."

You're right. Life does throw curve balls at you, and when that happens, you have to cut back on the excesses. My better half just lost her job, that means all of those extra expenses we had, all get cut. No more going out to eat once a week, no more steak 4 times a month, the netflix membership, gone, we walk anywhere within a mile to save gas money, and the medical bills we were paying off with extra money to spare, down to minimum payments, no more alcohol purchases, drinks are limited to water and the occasional teas, and the video game collection, no more purchases there either.

Is it really so much to ask that this guy give up smoking while he's collecting tax payer money for food?

Quote :

"I'm just particularly dismayed because Earl Rudd is the kind of guy y'all would have been all over celebrating. Just working hard and making ends meet without any assistance. But now that he's old and caught one too many bad flops, you want him to die. That is crazy."

I don't want him to die. I want him to stop wasting his money while simultaneously taking mine.

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 12:33 PM. Reason : edit]

3/20/2008 12:31:36 PM

Quote :

"he's starving because he CHOOSES to spend a tenth of his income on cigarettes"

did I miss the part of the article that quantified his habit?

3/20/2008 12:40:42 PM

Quote :

"$90 is about 18 days of food, even if he fucking eats McDonalds for lunch and dinner. "

You can make 90 last more than 2.5 weeks if you try.

3/20/2008 4:04:59 PM

People on welfare and foodstamps are so full of fucking crap. The last three years i have had a net income of approx. $12-15K per year.

I have no problem paying rent for a nice fairly nice apartment. Never have problems paying my bills. Eat better than most of my fellow college students. Even have plenty of extra loot to spend at the bars and drinking something better than bucsh light every weekend. Granted i had a federal tax rate of near ~0% b.c of school, not had to pay for my medical expenses, or some other unexpected expenses but still. Poor people just want more while doing less and will bitch otherwise.

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 4:21 PM. Reason : l]

3/20/2008 4:20:09 PM