The best presidents have military experience:

* George Washington - Commander in Chief of Continental Army during the American Revolution.
* James Monroe - served in American Revolution
* Andrew Jackson - American Revolution, War of 1812, First Seminole War
* William Henry Harrison - Indian wars in the NW territory, War of 1812
* John Tyler - War of 1812
* Zachary Taylor - War of 1812, Black Hawk, Second Seminole, and Mexican wars
* Franklin Pierce - Mexican War
* James Buchanan - War of 1812
* Abraham Lincoln - Black Hawk War
* Andrew Johnson - Civil War
* Ulysses Grant - Mexican War, Civil War
* Rutherford Hayes - Civil War
* James Garfield - Civil War
* Chester Arthur - Civil War
* Benjamin Harrison - Civil War
* William McKinley - Civil War
* Theodore Roosevelt - Spanish-American War
* Harry Truman - WWI
* Dwight Eisenhower - WWII General
* John Kennedy - WWII
* Lyndon Johnson - WWII
* Richard Nixon - WWII
* Gerald Ford - WWII
* Ronald Reagan - no combat, but military experience
* George Bush - WWII


I think this list wins.

I mean, I know Lincoln can't compete with van Buren in all, but still.

6/11/2008 9:32:30 AM

It also happens that the best presidents are not John McCain

6/11/2008 10:43:56 AM

That list makes it clear that some of the worst Presidents had military experience, too.

6/11/2008 10:52:55 AM

Best Presidents?

William Henry Harrison - Only served 30 days as President. All of them sick
John Tyler - Was a traitor to the United States
Franklin Pierce - Another Traitor
James Buchanan - Arguably the worst President next to Harding
Andrew Johnson - One of the worst Presidents as well.
US Grant - While a good meaning individual, his administration was mired by corruption
Rutherfod Hayes - Was a middling President at best
James Garfield - Another middling President who only served 6 months as President
Chester Arthur - The long forgotten about President who spent his time drinking and accomplishing nothing.
Richard Nixon - epitomized corruption

And as for "military service"

Abraham Lincoln - Never saw combat
Ronald Reagan - spent the war making movies

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 11:08 AM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 11:05:33 AM

Do you know who else had military experience. That's right. Its Hitler.

6/11/2008 11:06:42 AM

if ive learned anything its that Vietnam vets are crazy as shit

6/11/2008 11:19:28 AM

4 MORE YEARS (MAYBE)

Quote :

"Asked whether he’d be interested in Cheney had the vice president not already have served under Bush for two terms, McCain said: “I don’t know if I would want him as vice president. He and I have the same strengths. But to serve in other capacities? Hell, yeah.”"

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11000.html

6/11/2008 12:22:33 PM

He can't run from this! First the 100 years in Iraq, sabre rattling with Iran, and now:

In a live interview on NBC’s "Today," McCain discussed his economic plan, energy and Iraq. On Iraq, said bringing troops home is "not too important"

Not too important? Tell that to the freaking families and soldiers of the overworked military stretched beyond belief, to the stop-losses, and to all of the brave over there on their 50th cycle. GODDAMIT, He is really starting to piss me off.

6/11/2008 1:59:46 PM

6/11/2008 2:07:45 PM

6/11/2008 2:13:11 PM

guilt by association is fair as long as its not comparing Obama to Wright

6/11/2008 2:22:05 PM

Obama's campaign is over.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g-q-0AsF-EA

There goes all of Obama's claim to fame, his movement, and his Presidential ground breaking place in history.

Its safe for work, but I dare not spoil the surprise for you. Its from Monday night's Threat Down on the Colbert Report.

6/11/2008 3:11:52 PM

^^Obama has voted in 97% agreement with Jeremiah Wright's policy decisions in the Senate

Oh wait

6/11/2008 3:22:25 PM

some of you fellow Obama supporters were insisting that there was no proof whatsoever that "Obama shared any of the same opinions and view as Wright"...even though he went to his church and listened to his sermons for 20 years...they insist theres no proof...does that make sense to you?

6/11/2008 3:24:38 PM

Well let's see this proof you got

As opposed to everything he's ever said about race, religion, and America that goes against the inflammatory Wright comments

Besides that, they found about 30 seconds of footage to play on Fox News out of 20 years of sermons. Why wasn't there more if Wright was SPEWING HATE AT THE PULPIT 24/7?



[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 3:27:29 PM

so you think if you went to someone's church for 20 years, chances are you and the preacher would have zero common opinions? is that what you're implying? you'd just sit in a church for 20 years with someone preaching at you whom you shared absolutely no opinions? does that honestly make sense to you?

6/11/2008 3:28:28 PM

Well I'm not religious so maybe I'm not the best perspective on that but I think you could agree with someone about Jesus even if you didn't agree with their social beliefs

6/11/2008 3:29:50 PM

so according to your gut instinct, you think Obama sat in the same church for 20 years, listening to the same pastor for 20 years, and the only views they shared commonly were a belief in Jesus? Does that really make sense to you? cause the reason I ask is I have to deal with complete idiots like Boone who essentially puts his fingers in his ears and says "la la la theres no proof theres no proof", completely ignoring the common sense that tells me if you go somewhere for 20 years and listen to the same man preach, and involve him in your personal life, you probably share some views with him...but idiots like Boone just dont get it...then I say ok fuck that its not worth my time to try and explain myself, I'll just throw out a sarcastic remark to make fun of him...then that sarcastic remark becomes my only contribution to a thread or topic...anything I attempted to say earlier gets lost and ignored, and I'm instead berated for making a sarcastic remark out of frustration of trying to deal with people who are more hardheaded than you all claim i am...thats what I get when i actually do try to legitimately discuss something...ignored until i say something dumb, and then that gets obsessed over

in the "Obama believes in the free market" thread, all my posts about being skeptical that this was just another political move to increase voting base go ignored...then when people start attacking me and McCain (again, not defending Obama, but instead passing the blame), I decide to make a sarcastic comment displaying how I'm not able to criticize him logically as being "just another politician" and that its apparently unacceptable to criticize him...THEN people come out of the woodworks and start paying attention to my posts...or more specifically, the sarcastic post that was only made because the legit ones were ignored

6/11/2008 3:34:37 PM

I honestly don't know how often Obama was even in church, given how often he probably had to be in Washington or doing whatever State Senate stuff he had to do, but in any case I still have to disagree with the idea that the general atmosphere at that church was this anti-American hate orgy that a lot of you seem to think it is. Most of what I've seen of that church, except for the 30 seconds that got played over and over on CNN and Fox News, is just talking about Jesus and salvation and all that good stuff.

Here are a bunch of sermons from Trinity Chicago: http://www.youtube.com/user/TRINITYCHGO

I listened to a few of them after the whole flap happened the first time and I really didn't find anything disagreeable. Besides that, granted it wasn't communicated in a very palatable way, but I'm not so sure that the idea that America should cut back on its interventionist policies (which I took to be the moral of the "chickens come home to roost" deal) is such a bad idea. It's a preacher's job to act crazy and get people all fired up, and that can result in things being said in pretty outrageous ways, which leads to soundbytes that don't necessarily represent the general atmosphere of the church. Even Mike Huckabee defended Obama and Trinity on it. After watching some of the other videos, I just found the media portrayal of it to be highly exaggerated.

6/11/2008 3:44:10 PM

i dont think the church is an anti-american hate orgy either

but what i'm trying to get you to understand, is i'm arguing with people who say unless i can produce any evidence, they're happy to believe that obama and wright share exactly zero opinions and have shared exactly zero opinions over the last 20 years...that obama chose a man to be his spiritual advisor with whom he shares no opinions at all...common sense would tell me that nobody would ask their pastor of 20 years to be their spiritual advisor and be involved in their person life if they shared zero opinions with them...i would think common sense would tell anyone that...yet thats not the case...THAT is the type of person i'm arguing with...you can't argue with that...yet for some reason its always me who is at fault when i get fed up with that trolling and decide to throw out a 6 or 8 word capitalized sarcastic statement, that in turn becomes my only post on the matter, completely negating anything else i said

6/11/2008 3:50:40 PM

Quote :

"Lyndon Johnson - WWII"

His service was laughable.

6/11/2008 3:53:38 PM

But why can't a spiritual advisor just... advise someone on spiritual things? I'm pretty sure Obama's spirituality is a fairly unique thing for him. He said in a 2004 interview:

Quote :

"So, I have a deep faith. So I draw from the Christian faith. On the other hand, I was born in Hawaii where obviously there are a lot of Eastern influences. I lived in Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, between the ages of six and 10. My father was from Kenya, and although he was probably most accurately labeled an agnostic, his father was Muslim. And I’d say, probably, intellectually I’ve drawn as much from Judaism as any other faith. And so, part of my project in life was probably to spend the first 40 years of my life figuring out what I did believe – I’m 42 now – and it’s not that I had it all completely worked out, but I’m spending a lot of time now trying to apply what I believe and trying to live up to those values."

If Wright helped Obama come to terms with his faith, I think it's perfectly understandable that he'd want to stick by him even if they disagreed on political or social issues. In any case, the president is supposed to be a secular leader and all I've seen from Obama leads me to believe that he understands this.

6/11/2008 4:05:47 PM

I'm just trying to inform you of the rational arguments I attempt to make before resulting to tossing out a sarcastic remark...that I almost always try to get my point across initially in a fairly reasonable manner, but that those comments often get buried in favor of an off-cuff remark that I allowed myself to be baited into making

6/11/2008 4:08:30 PM

Well, I always understood the guilt by association argument to be that Obama, since he went to that church, would govern the country with the same political and social values as Wright would if he were to somehow become the president. I mean, maybe they did share some opinions, maybe Obama just joined that church in the first place to have credibility in the neighborhood when he was doing his community organizer job. Who knows. But I'm just trying to explain why I don't think Obama's relationship with Wright really has any effect on the way in which he'd govern. Sorry if I missed your point but I'm not exactly sure what we're debating now, if anything.

6/11/2008 4:17:31 PM

What does Wright have to do with anything? I'll never understand this argument. Jon Stewart did a great bit on the absurdity of this topic about a month back.

6/11/2008 4:18:04 PM

But see, guilt by association is ok if the association was for like, a long time.

Or something.

6/11/2008 4:33:12 PM

guilt by association is ok as long as you're talking about Bush and Exxon or Cheney and Haliburton or something similar

6/11/2008 4:35:14 PM

Wright and Obama
Clergy /=/ Politician

McCain and Bush
Politician = Politician

Be fair, at least.


[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:39 PM. Reason : -]

6/11/2008 4:35:53 PM

^^well, there is evidence that that association has influenced governmental decisions/contracts

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 4:35:57 PM

so guilt by association in that case is ok? what about the speculative guilt by association that everything bush has ever done while in office is for oil? do you honestly not see a double standard?

^^exxon and haliburton are not politicians

6/11/2008 4:37:55 PM

Quote :

"guilt by association is ok as long as you're talking about Bush and Exxon or Cheney and Haliburton or something similar"

That doesn't even make sense.

I mean, it does in the knee-jerk de-de-deee way, but not in any logical sense.


Guilt by association is the attribution the characteristics of X to Y.

Was anyone calling Exxon "Bush-like?" Or Cheney "Halliburonish?"

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:40 PM. Reason : How are we to argue against people who simply don't know the basic vocab?]

6/11/2008 4:38:15 PM

Well to move things along here's the breakdown of how the average tax bill will be affected with McCain and Obama's proposals http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm?postversion=2008061111

It's a shame that nobody really seems concerned about retiring the national debt but man I really can't tell where McCain is planning on getting any money for anything from


[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:39 PM. Reason : formatting doesn't work]

6/11/2008 4:39:25 PM

Quote :

"the attribution the characteristics of X to Y"

you mean like, Bush is evil, just like his oil company friends?

Obama hates America, just like his pastor?

wheres the difference? or you can admit the difference is determined by your own personal political views???

6/11/2008 4:40:24 PM

well, for one thing, i don't think that wright hates america

not to mention i don't think that exxon or bush are evil

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 4:41:05 PM

Quote :

"Bush is evil, just like the oil companies?"

lol, now find me one example of the use of that argument.


The argument was-- Bush had strong ties to oil, so his constant siding with oil companies is extremely suspect.

That's not guilt by association

6/11/2008 4:42:37 PM

^^ok

"Obama hates white people, just like his pastor"

Quote :

"Bush had strong ties to oil, so his constant siding with oil companies is extremely suspect."

Obama had strong ties to his pastor...

you'll argue this til the end of time though...its just a shame you cant recognize a blatant double standard

6/11/2008 4:42:53 PM

Cite examples of Obama hating white people.

You can't.


and I think we just reached a breakthrough!

Tree might finally get it, now.

6/11/2008 4:44:14 PM

^^equally stupid and unfounded

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:44 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 4:44:17 PM

Man I thought we were close to some real progress in here but here we are with the sarcasm again

Oh well I'm goin to the library peace suckas

6/11/2008 4:44:28 PM

what sarcasm? i try to explain a double standard, and they nitpick to avoid the issue

no surprise though

people are apparently still in denial about Wright being a racist

6/11/2008 4:45:10 PM

Quote :

"its just a shame you cant recognize a blatant double standard understand what the big kids are talking about"

6/11/2008 4:45:35 PM

maybe if i was passionate about a candidate, i too would refuse to see their faults and refuse to recognize obvious double standards

then i could convince myself that most people who have 20 year relationships have nothing in common

Quote :

"equally stupid and unfounded"

so Wright's not a racist? is that what you're saying?

6/11/2008 4:46:27 PM

You've yet to make your case about a double standard.

The Bush/McCain comparisons are apt because they actually do share much in common. Through actions and speeches.

The Obama/Wright comparisons are flawed because the depend on association only. There's no real evidence that you can produce that indicates that Obama secretly shares Wright's views.

So make your case, already.

Quote :

"then i could convince myself that most people who have 20 year relationships have nothing in common"

You'd need to convince us that all people who have 20 year relationships have everything in common. Then you'd have a case. Until then, your argument is flawed.

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:50 PM. Reason : ,]

6/11/2008 4:48:30 PM

^^like the bush family and the saudi royal family? (see that's me doing guilt by association)

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 4:48:32 PM

6/11/2008 4:49:18 PM

Quote :

"so Wright's not a racist? is that what you're saying?"

what happened to decrying political correctness?

6/11/2008 4:50:20 PM

Quote :

"There's no real evidence that you can produce that indicates that Obama secretly shares Wright's views."

its this mindless shit that gets me about Boone...he just puts his fingers in his ears and refuses to believe that a couple guys with a 20-year relationship might possibly share even one measly opinion...apparently all of Boone's relationships are with people with whom he shares zero opinions with...I can't think of any other reason why he'd be so willfully ignorant

^is he a racist or not? simple question...when I said he was a racist you implied that assertion was "stupid" and "unfounded"...so is he a racist or not?

Quote :

"You'd need to convince us that all people who have 20 year relationships have everything in common. Then you'd have a case. Until then, your argument is flawed."

wow thats about the most ass backwards logic i've ever seen...you claim that Wright and Obama share ZERO opinions, and now you're trying to argue something about all peopl sharing all opinions? maybe if you hadnt been such a stubborn dumbfuck from the get go you wouldnt be backpeddling feverishly right now...do you even remember what you said? cause you argued it pretty adamantly

6/11/2008 4:51:05 PM

Quote :

"refuses to believe that a couple guys with a 20-year relationship might possibly share even one measly opinion"

"might possibly."


So you're saying Obama "might possibly" share Wright's opinions?

McCain "might possibly" have an illegitimate black baby.


Is that the standard nowadays to brand someone as a racist?

[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 4:53:19 PM

Quote :

"So you're saying Obama "might possibly" share Wright's opinions?"

you said there was absolutely no evidence that Obama and Wright shared ANY opinions

i said thats naive and goes against common sense that people who know each other for 20 years would have nothing in common, opinion-wise

you stuck by your guns and continue to, horse-laughing in the face of common sense

6/11/2008 4:54:45 PM

There is no evidence.

Where's the evidence?


I'm not denying that he "might possibly" be anything, though.




These guys MUST share political beliefs. They've been hanging out for years.



[Edited on June 11, 2008 at 4:56 PM. Reason : .]

6/11/2008 4:55:59 PM