When you hear the term "living document," watch your freedom! It's about to be restricted.

6/23/2008 8:43:39 PM

Quote :

"Do we, or do we not, follow our fucking Constitution? It's really that simple! And, if you want to be a dick about it, what fucking good is a militia if it can't fight off an enemy? Seems to me that such powerful weapons would be covered by "the militia clause," even if it did apply. And, kind sir, you seem to neglect that we did have artillery back in the day. Are you going to suggest that they would allow a man to own artillery but NOT own a machine gun? That is pure madness. "

Since when did a single man comprise a militia?

6/23/2008 8:45:05 PM

since when can an effective militia exist without the weapons of the day?

And since when did it matter, since the 2nd amendment says "THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED". I'm sorry that you can't comprehend English. I'm sorry that you wish to piss away our rights because they inconvenience you. But don't fucking take my rights away.

And hell, we can't even have a militia today. You know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE OUTLAWED. Where is the local militia post? Oh, right, it doesn't exist. Probably because fucking nazis like you have outlawed the very means by which to create them.

6/23/2008 8:50:04 PM

you flippant attempt to dismiss the militia clause missed the mark widely.

also, the militias have evolved into the national guard.

6/23/2008 8:53:22 PM

dude. The militia clause is NOT a limiter. I'm sorry that you can't read english, but WHERE does it say the right is applied only to militias. WHERE? It doesn't. IT could say "Because we like daisies, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Would that mean that only guns that promoted daisies would be allowed? No. It's meaningless in terms of what kinds of weapons are allowed. That's the whole fucking point! People who try to frame it otherwise are merely trying to legitimize their blatant disregard for the Constitution.

AND, the national guard? HAHA!! You mean that organization which is CONTROLLED BY THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT? What the fuck good is that going to be when it is the GOVERNMENT that is being tyrannical? Not a damned bit.

[Edited on June 23, 2008 at 8:57 PM. Reason : ]

6/23/2008 8:56:22 PM

What do you think the militias were? They were STATE militias

also

it's called a comma.

6/23/2008 8:59:40 PM

but, they were independent of the state.

and yes. it is called a comma. that's why it doesn't affect the rest of the sentence.

[Edited on June 23, 2008 at 9:01 PM. Reason : ]

6/23/2008 9:00:42 PM

it still doesn't make sense to allow people to freely own rocket launchers and grenades and things like that though.

6/23/2008 9:03:13 PM

it might not not make sense to you, but it made sense to those who wrote the amendment. That's why they wrote it the way they did.

6/23/2008 9:05:15 PM

No, it doesn't make sense, period. And definitely not in the context of modern society.

6/23/2008 9:07:49 PM

Quote :

"Since when did a single man comprise a militia?"

if you want to be technical about it,

Quote :

"US Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Part I, Chapter 13, § 311 (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

6/23/2008 9:09:52 PM

no. it doesn't make sense to you. You fail to comprehend that these men had just participated IN A FUCKING REVOLUTION AGAINST ENGLAND. I think they fucking knew what they were saying. When's the last time you overthrew your government?

6/23/2008 9:10:28 PM

^ The US is the greatest country on Earth. How can you possibly think it would need overthrowing? Do you realize we're in a war on terror now, and you are trying to sympathize with terrorists? You're worse than Michelle Obama.

6/23/2008 9:18:37 PM

Well since the 4th Amendment we have the right "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" and since numerous federal courts have ruled that the police do not have an obligation to provide for the safety of the public as individuals; it would appear that we're legally justified in defending ourselves and our property. Sometimes this will require a firearm.

6/23/2008 9:28:45 PM

Quote :

"A well regulated militia."

Then join today's militia aka the National Guard which is controlled by each state. I am sure they will let you carry your choice of automatic firearm. Maybe get to fire some cool grenade launcher too

[Edited on June 23, 2008 at 9:31 PM. Reason : .]

6/23/2008 9:31:18 PM

too bad the National Guard can be used by the federal government at a moment's notice. Seems, then, that such an organization can't really qualify as a militia, and it certainly serves as no deterrent to a power-hungry federal government.

6/23/2008 9:34:21 PM

^ if the NG has control over their own weapons, they could easily decide to use them for their own purposes.

No true militia like you envision could ever exist.

6/23/2008 9:35:25 PM

actually, it did exist. During the revolutionary war. There's no reason to think that it couldn't exist again.

AND, the NG doesn't really have control over its own weapons. It has to be able to secure those weapons, and if the fed locks it up, then what can they do?

[Edited on June 23, 2008 at 9:38 PM. Reason : ]

6/23/2008 9:37:29 PM

^ how can the fed lock it up? someone locally is going to have the key. Convince that person they're fighting for a just cause, and the National Guard has just become a bonafied militia.

6/23/2008 9:39:31 PM

it's much easier and serves as a better deterrent against tyranny if the government knows it has an armed populace that will keep the government in check. you know, the whole fucking point of the 2nd amendment.

THe irony, though, is that "gun control" wouldn't be necessary if the government would reform other policies. namely, the "war on drugs." Think about the first gun control laws and why they were enacted. Prohibition. It created street gangs who used powerful weapons to maintain control of the black market. Seem similar to today? Who do we always hear have these awful weapons? Street gangs, who peddle drugs. Take away their funding, namely illegal drugs, and you take away their ability to purchase weapons. And the problem is solved.

But, nah, that makes too much sense. It's much easier to piss on the rights of law-abiding citizens.

6/23/2008 9:57:13 PM

we already do have an armed populace......

we just have laws to prevent convicted felons and those w/ mental health issues can't get one. nor do we allow except through a few special circumstances the possession of weapons who are designed to literally mow down people through automatic fire b.c society has decided that common sense dictates that the few circumstances where a person kills 30 people in 5 seconds outweighs the desire of a few gun collectors to have a fully functional SAW M240

6/23/2008 10:02:37 PM

Quote :

"it's much easier and serves as a better deterrent against tyranny if the government knows it has an armed populace that will keep the government in check. you know, the whole fucking point of the 2nd amendment. "

In modern society, and armed populace in no way deters tyranny. How exactly is a militia going to stop AT&T from eavesdropping on your phone calls to give the NSA? Even if you can secede you'd still be isolated by the inevitable trade embargoes, and without reliable internet, electricity and any resources, you're worse off than you were.

We'd be MUCH better off shoring up the legal and political systems that keep gov. in check rather than the anachronistic militant mechanisms you're describing, in the fight against tyranny.

6/23/2008 10:04:05 PM

btw if in some crazy parallel universe if we did decide to revolt i don't think a civilian "militia" armed with pistols, hunting rifles, with a few guys holding there legally purchased automatic weapons would stand a chance against the fully trained US military. I would prefer not having a B-52 carpet bomb my house as i shoot up at the sky using my AK-47.

6/23/2008 10:07:02 PM

^ I doubt the gov. would carpet bomb. They'd just smart bomb the houses of the resistance leaders.

6/23/2008 10:08:36 PM

so, if society deems that black people don't need rights, then is that acceptable? is it ok to piss on the Constitution without an amendment because society deems it acceptable?

Quote :

"How exactly is a militia going to stop AT&T from eavesdropping on your phone calls to give the NSA?"

Do you really think the government would fuck around like that if it knew there was an armed populace ready to take them to task for it? Think about it: the more that gun rights have been eroded, the more other rights have been eroded and the more power the US government has taken over its citizens. They are directly related. That dubya felt no fear in fucking over US citizens proves that the removal of weapons from citizens has made the government bolder in its disregard for our rights.

Quote :

"btw if in some crazy parallel universe if we did decide to revolt i don't think a civilian "militia" armed with pistols, hunting rifles, with a few guys holding there legally purchased automatic weapons would stand a chance against the fully trained US military."

don't you think that is why the framers meant for citizens to be able to own such weapons so that they could fight off a government who owned the very same things? Thank you for proving my point.

6/23/2008 10:30:17 PM

Quote :

"so, if society deems that black people don't need rights, then is that acceptable? is it ok to piss on the Constitution without an amendment because society deems it acceptable? "

Society can't make this determination because the existing political structure won't allow for it. THe existing structure also won't allow for guns to be made completely illegal. Making sure that politicians can be held legally liable for corruption or lying is much more important than making sure you can assassinate the president without recourse.

Quote :

"Do you really think the government would fuck around like that if it knew there was an armed populace ready to take them to task for it? Think about it: the more that gun rights have been eroded, the more other rights have been eroded and the more power the US government has taken over its citizens. They are directly related. That dubya felt no fear in fucking over US citizens proves that the removal of weapons from citizens has made the government bolder in its disregard for our rights. "

Are you saying that if you had a militia behind you, you would violently revolt over the telecom immunity issue?


[Edited on June 23, 2008 at 10:35 PM. Reason : ]

6/23/2008 10:33:55 PM

Quote :

"but, they were independent of the state"

no they weren't. Their commanders were appointed by the governor. The supplies were all paid for through state tax dollars. You have absolutely no concept of history. None.

6/23/2008 11:03:41 PM

Quote :

"don't you think that is why the framers meant for citizens to be able to own such weapons so that they could fight off a government who owned the very same things? Thank you for proving my point."

good call i really need to think about placing an SAM unit into my backyard. Hopefully my home owners association is not against the spinning missile turret chilling in my yard.

6/24/2008 2:45:03 AM

They would probably overlook that due to the protection it would provide against USAF B52s should a revolution take place.

6/24/2008 4:02:38 AM

Quote :

"Do we, or do we not, follow our fucking Constitution? It's really that simple! "

uhhh, we don't.

pretty simple if you ask me.


we should, and we should amend some things we don't like and then stick to it.

6/24/2008 4:10:57 AM