^^^ don't say "double click" unless you mean "clicking twice", which is what it's meant for 30 years.

just say "two finger click" if you're talking about 2 fingers

10/15/2008 11:33:14 AM

^i thought he actually meant double click and not two fingers. Its always been two finger clicks...so thought maybe they changed it

10/15/2008 11:38:34 AM

aside from being a seperate button combination, being able to press both buttons independent of the other makes for superior ergonomics. The "right click" on the mightmouse is fustrating as hell because it only works about 50% of the time.

Any one of logitech's mouse designs from the last 10 years is superior in every possible way.

As for right click on the pad, if they could distinguish between my two fingers so that pointer was always mouse1 and middle was always mouse2 that would own. But have to use two fingers to right click sucks.

10/15/2008 11:42:41 AM

Quote :

"so thought maybe they changed it"

i guess that's what i was getting at, is that apple would try to redefine what double click meant. cus you know, it's apple

10/15/2008 11:44:07 AM

Quote :

"aside from being a seperate button combination, being able to press both buttons independent of the other makes for superior ergonomics. The "right click" on the mightmouse is fustrating as hell because it only works about 50% of the time. Any one of logitech's mouse designs from the last 10 years is superior in every possible way. As for right click on the pad, if they could distinguish between my two fingers so that pointer was always mouse1 and middle was always mouse2 that would own. But have to use two fingers to right click sucks."

the mightmouse shouldn't even be an issue worth discussing because you are free to use any mouse you want. Personal preference.

but as far as track pads...two finger right clicks own. Your thumb never has to change position and you can always click in the same spot. Plus you have to use 2 fingers to scroll anyway. (and at least you aren't limited to the outside edge of the track pad for scrolling.


^still not sure what you're getting at? Are you saying apple DID do this or you're just assuming they would change this because they have a 1 button track pad?

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 11:50 AM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 11:48:38 AM

Quote :

"left click is now single click right click is now double click (or maybe corner click) double click is now...super click?"

like double drag, double pinch, and double rotate? and triple swipe? and quadruple swipe?


don't be a douche.

There's:
click
double click
two finger click
two finger drag
two finger pinch
two finger rotate
three finger swipe
four finger swipe

Quote :

"The "right click" on the mightmouse is fustrating as hell because it only works about 50% of the time. "

I don't know if this completely answers your frustration on the topic, but understanding how the sensors of the MM work could help you. If the MM senses a finger present on the left side of the mouse when a click (from anywhere) is activated, then it's a left click. If there is no finger present on the left side of the mouse when a click is activated, then it's a right click. So in order to have a right click, you must lift your index finger off the mouse. Not knowing this would produce very inconsistent behavior.

Quote :

"^still not sure what you're getting at? Are you saying apple DID do this or you're just assuming they would change this because they have a 1 button track pad?"

He's just saying that Apple is so cocky that they'd redefine terminology to suit their own whims.

10/15/2008 12:01:58 PM

Quote :

"If the MM senses a finger present on the left side of the mouse when a click (from anywhere) is activated, then it's a left click. If there is no finger present on the left side of the mouse when a click is activated, then it's a right click. So in order to have a right click, you must lift your index finger off the mouse. Not knowing this would produce very inconsistent behavior."

That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard of.

Only Apple could wait 15+ years to come up with a mouse capable of a left and right click and then fuck it up.

10/15/2008 2:12:19 PM

Quote :

"but as far as track pads...two finger right clicks own. Your thumb never has to change position and you can always click in the same spot. Plus you have to use 2 fingers to scroll anyway. (and at least you aren't limited to the outside edge of the track pad for scrolling. "

The way it works in my hp i right click with my middle finder without taking my index off the pad. I dont generally use my thumb to click. Also, I have the right side designated as virtical scrolling so i only need one finger to scroll. Tap to click has been availble to pcs forever and thats was i use most of the time. Add one finger scrolling and i dont even need to use my middle all that often. And when i do its to right click. If they could make it so if i tapped with only my middle it was right click and tap only index it was left click that would own. Until then I'll use the buttons.

Quote :

"I don't know if this completely answers your frustration on the topic, but understanding how the sensors of the MM work could help you. If the MM senses a finger present on the left side of the mouse when a click (from anywhere) is activated, then it's a left click. If there is no finger present on the left side of the mouse when a click is activated, then it's a right click. So in order to have a right click, you must lift your index finger off the mouse. Not knowing this would produce very inconsistent behavior."

If thats true its absolutely fucking stupid. I'll give it a try next time I'm at a mac.

10/15/2008 2:14:16 PM

Quote :

"The way it works in my hp i right click with my middle finder without taking my index off the pad. I dont generally use my thumb to click. Also, I have the right side designated as virtical scrolling so i only need one finger to scroll. Tap to click has been availble to pcs forever and thats was i use most of the time. Add one finger scrolling and i dont even need to use my middle all that often. And when i do its to right click. If they could make it so if i tapped with only my middle it was right click and tap only index it was left click that would own. Until then I'll use the buttons."

sounds to me like a personal issue with your fingers not doing what you tell them to. 2 finger scroll. 2 finger right click. whats so difficult?

clicking/scrolling anywhere >>> only being allowed to click in one spot per action. And scrolling on the edge of a trackpad = epic fail. Simple fact is...the new trackpads from MBP Gen1 and up is innovative and a step forward. Not going to comment on the new glass trackpad until I actually try it for myself...

10/15/2008 2:38:28 PM

Why can't they be "innovative" while still being "current"?

Seriously, for the several extra hundred dollars in price you'd think they could put another piece of plastic in there that's sole purpose is to right click. I'm sitting here looking at the Powerbook on my desk (and really, any Mac laptop up to the just released one) and I can't for the life of me see what the computing benefit of having a left-click mouse button as wide as the trackpad is.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 3:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 3:13:43 PM

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STFU ABOUT THE LACK OF A FUCKING BUTTON

10/15/2008 3:23:25 PM

you know what would be awesome?

A BUTTON.

that'd be great.

10/15/2008 3:24:34 PM

Quote :

"I'm sitting here looking at the Powerbook on my desk (and really, any Mac laptop up to the just released one) and I can't for the life of me see what the computing benefit of having a left-click mouse button as wide as the trackpad is. "

I'm sitting here using this Dell laptop and wondering why the hell the right click button is so big. The trackpad itself is so small I can't really "finger" it normally and have my thumb on the left-click, I either have to hold my hand at a crooked angle, or use my second hand to left-click. This is a 15.4" laptop too BTW.

2-finger right-clicking is superior to this setup, IMO. Too bad Dell doesn't care about innovation (and Apple probably has patents on the 2-finger thing).

10/15/2008 3:35:55 PM

So what you're saying is that the trackpad is too small for you to properly operate with one finger, but using two fingers on it would be easier?

That doesn't make any sense.

On top of that, I'm not saying other implementations are perfect or even good, but this whole "look, we're going to stick with one mouse button rather than admit we're wrong" stuff is ridiculous.

10/15/2008 4:03:25 PM

no, he's saying the Dell pad is a POS all around.
Same on my ThinkPad T60 - the pad is literally <2" wide and <1.5" tall. it sucks.

With the huge, multi-touch trackpad, Apple is moving away from the historical laptop mouse paradigm altogether. You can drop the "one button mouse" idiocy. Apple has moved beyond that. Let's see how many years it takes for PC makers to catch up

Think of it this way:
No button Multi-touch is the new two-button.

10/15/2008 4:08:03 PM

Quote :

"Let's see how many years it takes for PC makers to catch up"

Hopefully never, since:

Quote :

"the laptop clit is the best pointing device in existence."

10/15/2008 4:14:52 PM

Quote :

"On top of that, I'm not saying other implementations are perfect or even good, but this whole "look, we're going to stick with one mouse button rather than admit we're wrong" stuff is ridiculous."

If you're running windows on your Macbook, I can see why you'd perceive it as them not wanting to "admit they're wrong" but Mac OS X is not as reliant on right-clicking as Windows.

And if you've ever tried to help a computer novice out, there's tons of people that still don't get right-clicking.

The 2 finger clicking is a very natural motion, and a very good solution to the issue of right clicking.

Considering i'm right handed anyway, a right-click button would do nothing but get in the way of 95% of my clicking. Sure, you could switch the buttons, but that completely breaks the left/right clicking paradigms.

I like the big, single, easy to reach button, and I look forward to my next Apple laptop having the no-button trackpad.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 4:19 PM. Reason : ]

10/15/2008 4:18:19 PM

Quote :

"If you're running windows on your Macbook, I can see why you'd perceive it as them not wanting to "admit they're wrong" but Mac OS X is not as reliant on right-clicking as Windows."

valid point that i didn't think about

10/15/2008 4:23:48 PM

Quote :

"Why can't they be "innovative" while still being "current"?"

because if they wanted to be current they'd just use PC's with 'vista' *gasp*

but on a serious note...if you use a mac on a regular basis...you can see the clear advantage of having only 1 button vs. 2. Hell I hardly use my work laptop because it not only has 2 mouse buttons but 4 (depending on if you use the eraser head or the touchpad) and right clicking is annoying when all I should be able to do is click the same button but have a 2nd finger present on the touch pad. I don't have to think of where my finger is clicking at all...

like i said before..clicking anywhere to achieve the same tasks as clicking in specific spots is a clear advantage. Mac's don't have 1 mouse click anymore as they did in the past. You guys need to get over that hump and accept that its no longer the case.

anyone who's comparing to a iBook or Powerbook really has no room to talk.

Quote :

"I like the big, single, easy to reach button, and I look forward to my next Apple laptop having the no-button trackpad."

went to southpoint at lunch to look at one but they hadn't setup the displays yet some kid had just bought a new MBP but i had only seen it from a distance as they were setting it up and transferring his old data. I'm pretty sure they had just received the shipment as there were a ton of boxes outside that were being carted in.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 5:33 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 5:31:33 PM

I can't believe that anyone can possibly complain about the distinct button vs no button.

I can think of a very simple analogy for this:



Regular fucking buttons:



Works fine. No major complaints, but it's just okay.




Making the entire trackpad the button:



Holy shit that's so much better. I had no complaints about the regular buttons, but holy fucking god this is going to be the default setup for the next 5 years for every fucking device on the planet.



And we didn't even have to suffer through the terrible, horrible, oh-my-god-that's-the-worst-idea-ever intermediary:






You can complain about the right click thing if you want. I mean, you'll be a douche for doing so, but people have been complaining about that for 20 years and will continue to complain about it, so whatever.
But complaining about the lack of a discrete button means you're just a retard.

10/15/2008 6:45:03 PM

Quote :

"And if you've ever tried to help a computer novice out, there's tons of people that still don't get right-clicking. The 2 finger clicking is a very natural motion, and a very good solution to the issue of right clicking."

I'm not trying to come down on either side of the debate here, but this is a weak argument to pull out in defense of the pad. Anyone who "still doesn't get" right-clicking is going to be totally flummoxed by the idea of multiple finger clicking and gestures.

If you're telling a novice computer user about right-clicking, they might forget and then wonder how to get back to that fancy context menu with all the options on it. Similarly if you're telling them about 2-finger clicking, they might forget. But someone is going to be waaay more likely to look at a second discrete button and say, "hmm, oh yeah, that was it" than they are to look at the trackpad and say, "hmm, oh yeah, let's try hitting it with TWO fingers this time."

A discrete button's physical presence is an invitation to be pushed. A blank trackpad gives no obvious visual clues, and if a novice is used to tapping it once to click, I guarantee that when experimenting with it to try and remember some functionality, they will be vastly more likely to try tapping it two or three times in a row quickly than to try tapping it with two or three fingers at the same time. Users who are ignorant as to how the trackpad works, but know how to use it to move the cursor, wouldn't guess that it can sense multiple fingers or more than one contact at once.

So while the ergonomics and daily use for people comfortable with computers is up for debate by you people, a mouse with discrete buttons is unquestionably better for the computer illiterate.

10/15/2008 7:08:51 PM

blah blah blah. The only way to know is to do user testing. Apple obviously did and liked the value proposition -- same thing they did with one-button mouse and the no-button mouse. They are also used to and don't care about faggots whining.


It's ok to not like any of these things, but don't pretend you know fuck all about what will sell or what works if you haven't actually researched the usability.


^And the response to that would be that most Apple apps and Mac apps, by influence, are designed to be perfectly usable with one mouse button. If you are sophisticated enough to be using right-clicks, you can handle two fingers.


[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 7:40 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 7:14:45 PM

And so again, it's still a weak argument to make.

10/15/2008 7:37:04 PM

Quote :

"Apple obviously did and liked the value proposition"

actually, no. Apple has stated that they do not do user testing, focus groups, polling, etc. Instead, they hire the best designers in the world and trust their instinct.

10/15/2008 8:21:06 PM

^What, where did you ever read that?

If they are the best designers in the world, they DEFINITELY did user testing and lab studies. Great designers do not follow their instincts, they follow the data that supports their instincts.

10/15/2008 9:08:23 PM

not sure.... i can't find it. so I can't back up that assertion.

maybe the point, though, is that Apple doesn't make design decisions "by committee". I think it's undeniable that they put huge amounts of trust in the design decisions of Jobs and Johnathan Ives and their other lead designers

10/15/2008 10:10:21 PM

Doing user testing does not equate to design by committee. Users are very poor at knowing what the want, but they are pretty reliable about evaluating something put in front of them. Great designers propose the ideas, user testing proves those ideas.

10/15/2008 10:59:08 PM

^obviously they don't because their designs are right on point and are intuitive enough for anyone to use without much effort or 'training'

i mean hell...we spent a few minutes today trying to figure out how to disable the trackpad's tap feature in vista today and never did find it in the settings. It used to be under the 'mouse' settings in the control panel but isn't anymore. another reason why windows = FAIL

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 11:04 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 11:02:04 PM

obviously the design team failed this round. they're ugly as sin.

10/15/2008 11:07:04 PM

I mean.

2000 is a lot of cash.

way better spent towards other shit, when I have a vaio that is just fine.

10/15/2008 11:12:46 PM

ugly != usability

so, again, I still can't back up the statement that they don't do "any user testing"
But I think it's undeinable that Apple takes certain concepts that are out of the box and "forces them down our throat". There was almost universal recoil and horror about the iPhone not having a real keyboard when it was released, because that was soemthing nobody had ever seen in a similar product. Likewise, it probably would have failed miserably in focus group testing. But Jobs or Ives or someone in Apple had the vision of what they wanted the iPhone to be like, and they were relentless in making it so.

i can actually imagine this happening inside Apple, as Fake Steve Jobs described it 6 months before it iPhone was announced
http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2006/09/tabula-rasa.html

Quote :

"We're back to square one. Starting over. Tabula rasa. Throwing out everything we've done so far and making a new phone that just makes phone calls. Small, white, gorgeous, as few buttons as possible. Our designers tell me we need at least 12 buttons so we can have all the numbers plus * and # symbols. I'm telling them to go back and do it over. I want one button. No more, no less. One. Like the Bono song, which we will totally use to promote the phone. The designers keep looking at me like I'm crazy. But I've never been saner in my entire life. We will do this. And it will be huge. Best of all, turns out that if all you want to do is make phone calls you can buy this super-cheap telephony chip set from China for like 50 cents a phone. Then we sell them for 800 bucks cause they have an Apple logo. Sweet, right? "The 1-Phone." Or: "The One." Or something. We'll do commercials showing people in colorful silhouettes, dancing around talking on their super-expensive white phones. Or maybe we'll hire that fat PC dork and have him use a regular phone and then a cool guy use an Apple phone."

10/15/2008 11:14:12 PM

Quote :

"obviously the design team failed this round. they're ugly as sin."

personal preference. Can't argue its appearance with someone but you can argue usability.


and ^ smoke much? If it was such a FAIL idea no one would have bought it. Apple doesn't force anything down anyones throats because A) its not a monopoly and because of A) we have option B). Buy whatever the fuck you want.

10/15/2008 11:18:13 PM

^ dude, what are you talking about? i'm on "your side", more or less

I'm not saying "force down our throats" is necessarily a bad thing. I'm saying that at Apple, they get ideas that they are very adamant about that may be very unpopular at first blush with the public at large. For example, the onscreen keyboard on the iPhone, and now the "buttonless", multi-touch trackpad.
If they were designing products by popularity contest, they would have added a physical keyboard to the iPhone and a 2-button trackpad on the Macbooks.

But I'm saying that they advocates for these features are unwillingly to compromise on what they believe is the best idea, and it comes down to what your parents always told you - "i'm doing this for your own good. You'll thank me for it later", which is what I think the attitude Apple has for a lot of their design features. Now some see that as condescending, but overall, I think they (Apple) are proved right in the long run. When he iPhone was announced, countless analysts sided with conventional wisdom that a smartphone could not be successful without a physical keyboard. They are eating their words, as Apple approaches something like 11-12M iPhones sold in 2008. I think the same think will be true for the multi-touch, buttonless trackpads. You see there are plenty of people slamming it now, but I think in another year or two, PC users will start clamoring for them on Dells and HPs.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 11:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 11:24:42 PM

Quote :

"Can't argue its appearance with someone but you can argue usability. "

the usability has been crap in all iterations. This one just looks as ugly as it performs.

10/15/2008 11:26:54 PM

^^perhaps you shouldn't have used the phrase... "forced down our throats" because that is something Microshaft would do with piss poor design/usability. If its innovative and progressive then its more of a welcomed changed then anything else.

^ok. Trolling is for shit shat.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 11:27 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 11:26:57 PM

Quote :

"the usability has been crap in all iterations. "

care to back that up? wth are you talking about?

Quote :

"perhaps you shouldn't have used the phrase... "forced down our throats" "

see: "i'm doing this for your own good. You'll thank me for it later"

I applaud Apple for moves like this.
One of Microsoft's problems, that we've discussed in plenty of other threads, is that they compromise too much. They try to keep everyone happy, and the end result is a big mishmash that actually no one is very satisfied with. There are plenty of reasons for this that are neither here nor there and don't need to be discussed again, but fortunately for Apple, one of the advantages of being an underdog for the past 15 years is that they can innovate and try completely new and different things without the fear of alienating already huge user bases. They might end up, though, finding themselves forced to compromise more as their base grows (although this is not the case yet, as evidenced by the introduction of OS X 10.6 in early 2009, which is Intel-only, less than 3 years after they started using Intel CPUs)

10/15/2008 11:33:38 PM

no right mouse button = failure. end of story. You can come up with as many defenses of the gimmick two finger + click system as you want, but it still just a gimmick. The reason every single mac users in history goes and buys a third party mouse is because the default offering is garbage.

The context menu is a requirement for usability, even more so on the mac than that PC because the mac's keyboard shortcuts are severely limited. If i want to delete a file in explorer, i just click delete. In Finder delete doesn't do anything. And the fastest way to delete something is to right click -> move to trash. If you're stuck with one button you have to either go up to the menu or drag it to the trash. Its shit design.

10/15/2008 11:36:11 PM

command + delete?

10/15/2008 11:37:16 PM

Quote :

"no right mouse button = failure. end of story. You can come up with as many defenses of the gimmick two finger + click system as you want, but it still just a gimmick. The reason every single mac users in history goes and buys a third party mouse is because the default offering is garbage. "

you can argue until you're blue in the face about the second mouse button...but you'll just be flat wrong. Unless you are handicap and dumb...2 finger click and 1 mouse button >>>>>> 2 mouse buttons. Sorry but you will and have lost this argument.

Now...on the 2nd part you mentioned. the reason why mac users have bought 3rd part mice is because yes...the mighty mouse is FAIL...(although i like it just fine because i'm used to it). But we aren't talking about 1 button mice. We are talking about multi functional trackpads. But thanks for grasping for straws.

Quote :

"The context menu is a requirement for usability, even more so on the mac than that PC because the mac's keyboard shortcuts are severely limited. If i want to delete a file in explorer, i just click delete. In Finder delete doesn't do anything. And the fastest way to delete something is to right click -> move to trash. If you're stuck with one button you have to either go up to the menu or drag it to the trash. Its shit design."

i'm glad you brought this up. This is just more evidence that you a) don't know shit about macs and b) don't know shit about macs... therefore anything you say should just be ignored.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 11:46 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 11:45:42 PM

What about games? 2-button mouse will always win. I can't imagine trying to play a FPS with this design. I guess an external mouse always wins anyway.

[Edited on October 15, 2008 at 11:54 PM. Reason : .]

10/15/2008 11:54:18 PM

i like to do more with my computer than click on the web browser and click on links. If I want to delete a file, the delete button should do it. if you argue anything else you just have jobs's cock so far up your ass its talking for you.


Again

You are defending a delete button that does not delete.


Can you read that?


a DELETE button. That when you press it, does not delete.


If you still want to defend this i dont know what to say.


using 2 fingers + click is not superior to single click with one finger on the right mouse button. Hell, even two fingers for scroll sucks compared to one finger for scroll. And the thing is, if you want two finger scroll on a pc you just need to get a different driver for your trackpad. If you want a second mouse button on your mac you are sol. And the reason i brought up the third party mouse is because everyone loves a second mouse button on their mouse, why wouldn't they want it on their laptop? If the gimmick pad were so great you wouldn't need another mouse. Its less functional than 2 mouse buttons and thats it. Its a great sales gimmick for morons with more money than sense.

10/16/2008 12:00:10 AM

If you have difficulties using a new concept then thats fine...but don't shit on it because you're incompetent.

Quote :

"Its a great sales gimmick for morons with more money than sense."

so...how is it morons have money and intelligent people are poor? This i'd like to know.

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 12:03 AM. Reason : .]

10/16/2008 12:02:45 AM

Quote :

"I can't imagine trying to play a FPS with this design. I guess an external mouse always wins anyway."

uhh, yeah, i guess an "external mouse" would always win.... do you play many FPS games on Windows using a trackpad or pointer?


btw, i found on another forum the quote I was trying to remember when I said "apple doesn't do user testing". Here is the actual Steve Jobs quote:

Quote :

"We do no market research. We don't hire consultants. The only consultants I've ever hired in my 10 years is one firm to analyze Gateway's retail strategy so I would not make some of the same mistakes they made [when launching Apple's retail stores]. But we never hire consultants, per se. We just want to make great products."

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0803/gallery.jobsqna.fortune/3.html
so, not as over-arching as I suggested, but still suggests they rely more heavily on internal design than other companies.

here's some similar quotes from Jobs from the past
http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2006/03/70512

Quote :

""It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them." [i.e. 'forcing it down our throats', or 'just trust me, this is better for you'] -- BusinessWeek, May 25 1998"

and here's something a guy wrote on an arstechinca forum where I asked the same question. It's anonymous, so take it for what it's worth, but it sounds reasonable

Quote :

"I've also met someone who was once involved who told me about how a specific product part was designed. He said that Steve set requirements for a stylistic concept (I'm assuming Ive was involved somewhere), and everyone had to fall in line about it in all the rest of the whole product's design. After that was done, usability testing was finally involved to make sure it worked "well enough." Sorry that I can't be more specific about the product or person, but I don't want to incriminate a source I have good reason to trust (not that you have a good reason to trust me, of course). I don't know how generalizable this instance was to the rest of their products, but it was enough to turn me off from wanting to work for them as a tester/designer."

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 12:11 AM. Reason : .]

10/16/2008 12:09:12 AM

Quote :

"And the reason i brought up the third party mouse is because everyone loves a second mouse button on their mouse, why wouldn't they want it on their laptop?"

if you can't see the usability differences between a mouse and a trackpad + buttons, then we can't help you.

10/16/2008 12:13:11 AM

Quote :

"so...how is it morons have money and intelligent people are poor? This i'd like to know. "

i didn't say morons have more money, i said they dont spend it wisely.

Quote :

"if you can't see the usability differences between a mouse and a trackpad + buttons, then we can't help you. "

people get a third party mouse because they want a second button. If they could get a third party device to replace the macbook trackpad they would for the same exact reasons.

[Edited on October 16, 2008 at 12:16 AM. Reason : .]

10/16/2008 12:15:06 AM

I thought they got an external mouse because it's better than a trackpad. Higher resolution and much more precise. I can't imagine doing actual design/cad work with a trackpad.

10/16/2008 12:18:18 AM

Quote :

"people get a third party mouse because they want a second button."

no, people get a third party mouse because a mouse is almost always better than any built-in mouse-system on a laptop, Windows or Mac.

If your statement were true, then you would have to show that the amount of people who use an external mouse on Mac laptops is greater than on Windows laptops, which I seriously doubt is true. Anyone who uses a laptop as a desktop replacement or as a work-computer is likely to have an external mouse, regardless of the OS.

10/16/2008 12:21:57 AM

Quote :

"I applaud Apple for moves like this. One of Microsoft's problems, that we've discussed in plenty of other threads, is that they compromise too much. They try to keep everyone happy, and the end result is a big mishmash that actually no one is very satisfied with.[/control] Now now, lets be real here. Microsoft doesn't do hardware. You call that a compromise, I call that good business. Apple has repeatedly nearly bankrupted itself over it's life by "not compromising", while MS has been on of the most stable growth companies in the world since it's beginning. [quote]Apple, one of the advantages ... is that they can ... try completely new and different things without the fear of alienating already huge user bases."

If you want to talk about new and different, I guarantee you that Microsoft creates more NEW technology in a year than Apple has in it's existance. Apple does not do "completely new and different things". They are not an early adopter company or technology leaders. They are ecosystem builders. They are incredible at putting together the right mix of technologies and services into a closed-loop system and selling it to consumer markets.

After Lisa and Newton, both of which, btw, nearly bankrupted the company, I can't think of a single "new and different" thing they've done in terms of technology or product. Maybe Firewire, which they have essentially dropped in favor of the Microsoft pioneered USB PC standard.

There was multi-touch long before the iPhone or the new trackpad. Multi-touch has been well researched, studied and recorded for almost ten years now. The only "leap of faith" was the pricepoint for the phone.

Quote :

"There was almost universal recoil and horror about the iPhone not having a real keyboard when it was released, because that was soemthing nobody had ever seen in a similar product."

Maybe by the media, but the usability world knew it was coming. The only concern from the design industry was whether the lack of tactile feedback (which, btw, is completely possible on a touchscreen) would turn people off. Turns out it doesn't enough to buy something else. It wasn't a huge breakthrough, it was a "who is going to get to market first and do it right".


Apple can do what it does in the PC market for three simple reasons:

1) They completely control their ecosystem. This allows for incredibly interoperability between all of their products, and it allows them to mix and match technology without much risk or fear.

2) They can charge a major premium as a result of #1. With a closed ecosystem there is no threat of competition within it. This allows their prices to have an artificial ceiling.

3) They satisfy niche markets. People who need Apple products love them. People that want Apple products love them. Most people don't need them, and can't afford to want them.


Apple will grow in proportion with the size of the markets they are in. But, unless they open their ecosystem (white box OSX, Apps, and or hardware), there isn't much room for crazy growth, because the life-cycles of their products are too short and their price places them out of the reach of most consumers.

That is speaking about Mac sales, to be clear. The jury is still out on the iPhone.

Why has the iPhone 3G succeeded? They created a handset that interoperates with every GSM network in the world, they opened their doors to the standard subsidized sales platform, they embraced multiple carriers, and they opened up their development environment. As a result, they will likely outsell every other "smartphone" in the world combined next year.

However, they have already been hinting at a return to the old ways. The App Store is hitting the saturation point for doodad applications, and Apple is being very very closed about allowing interoperability with the core system, its own applications, or any direct competition to their products. The NDA nightmare was won, but there is a LONG way to go to prove the App Store's viability. And without it being truly open, the iPhone will sink.

10/16/2008 1:13:43 AM

Quote :

"so, not as over-arching as I suggested, but still suggests they rely more heavily on internal design than other companies. "

Not using external consulting, and not doing market research is absolutely different from:

"actually, no. Apple has stated that they do not do user testing, focus groups, polling, etc. Instead, they hire the best designers in the world and trust their instinct."

I guarantee you Apple does plenty of internal research to validate technologies and usability, find new markets and exploit opportunities in them (hell, they WROTE THE BOOK on OS usability guidelines Amazon Link ). A quick look at open jobs at the company shows dozens of "Analyst" positions which are Market Researchers. Their marketing department is big, and it ain't just sales.

10/16/2008 1:29:14 AM

Does anyone know how the video card in the new macbook performs compared to say, a mobility radeon 256mb X1600 (I have this in my macbook pro).

Same for the new macbook pro card?

I have a Macbook Pro now and am thinking of selling and downgrading to the smaller Macbook as I would like a smaller portable machine.

10/16/2008 1:36:10 AM