^ Your post makes me fear the military, but oddly want to join it.

11/29/2008 10:56:29 PM

what rank is kdawg(c) and robzeko?

[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 11:00 PM. Reason : robzeko's profile says Lt JG]

11/29/2008 10:57:59 PM

Quote :

"Fareako (Coast Guard?)"

haha

Fareako is in the process of joining the Marine Corps. He's completed OCS and is going to do more this summer.

I don't know where that fits in with your chart though.

@Duke, its funny how much my family thinks along the lines of 'lol Navy'. My mom is an aviation artist and deals with TONS of military customers...she says that the worst out of all of them is Navy guys.

[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 11:39 PM. Reason : lkj]

[Edited on November 29, 2008 at 11:40 PM. Reason : lkj]

11/29/2008 11:36:58 PM

Today I had lunch with the future XO of the USS Teddy Roosevelt! All the COs and XOs of subs and carriers have to go to nuke school.

The galley is a huge cafeteria with long tables, and me and another instructor were eating lunch. Then a Commander comes up and asks if anybody's sitting by us. We said, no sir! It was great talking to him, although at first I was pretty intimidated by his rank.

explanation for non-navy folks - XO is short for Executive Officer, this person is second in command behind the captain of the ship. The Teddy Roosevelt is an aircraft carrier.

12/5/2008 6:34:14 PM

Quote :

"You are out of your mind."

In rank, I fit in between Enlisted and Officer. In the Fleet, I can't do jack shit as a Mid. Don't get me wrong.

I'll be an Ensign as of 17 Dec, so no more grey area after that.

Fareako, you doing PLC?

12/5/2008 6:37:13 PM

Quote :

"I can't even guess how many times through OCS and TBS (another thing that officers of other services are shorted on, but I digress) it was hammered into us that troop welfare comes second to only one thing: mission accomplishment. Their needs and welfare always come before yours. Officers eat last, only after every subordinate has been taken care of. The other part of the equation is that our officers aren't pampered through their training. We are expected to PT harder, sleep less, work longer, take the blame for shortcomings, give credit for the successes, etc. That's why you're paid the big bucks. So, in short, (1) Hold yourself to a higher, harder standard, and (2) take care of your subordinates before you take care of yourself. Don't lose sight of who's in charge, and don't take any shit, but treat your men with the respect that they're due. They will return the favor."

All of this applies to leadership anywhere -- private, public, military, etc. The navy leaders you have described are not really different from 90% of leaders anywhere, and most non-military places don't really have required, effective leadership training.

It's questionable whether good leadership skills can be trained, either. There are shitloads of books and training out there that have failed to crank out good leaders. The most these types of things achieve is that they give leaders a collection of processes they can easily apply that will most likely prevent a catastrophic result.

12/5/2008 6:49:06 PM

woah, woah

who's saying we're pampered in the Navy?

I might not have had to go through OCS (because the Navy doesn't believe in the uniform training that Marine enlisted and officers have to do), but ROTC hasn't been a cake walk. Not the hardest thing in the world, but no pampering.

12/5/2008 6:52:01 PM

I'm a Lance Corporal (E-3) and I'll get promoted to Corporal (E-4) next month in the Marines.

12/5/2008 8:31:01 PM

^^^ i think that it is trainable to a significant extent, but for the most part, not through books.

12/5/2008 9:31:05 PM

Quote :

"In rank, I fit in between Enlisted and Officer. In the Fleet,I can't do jack shit as a Mid. Don't get me wrong."

Your civilian equivalent is a management trainee.

[Edited on December 5, 2008 at 10:39 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2008 10:34:17 PM

Quote :

"Enlisted < Midshipman < Officer"

Seriously? Out of your damn mind. Enlisted don't salute you, take orders from you, and you don't have 5 minutes of real life military experience.

Cadets/Midshipman < Enlisted < Officer

[Edited on December 6, 2008 at 1:43 AM. Reason : 3]

12/6/2008 1:40:31 AM

dont forget, kids....


all non-military u.s. citizens outrank any military officer.

12/6/2008 2:14:51 AM

^^ like I said earlier...he is technically correct, but not in any sort of practical sense.

^ what do you mean?

12/6/2008 11:02:46 PM

all military NCOs and officers take orders from superiors, on up the chain to the Sec Def and the President of the United States. the President of the United States, in turn, is elected by the citizens. the military is controlled by civilians, and derives its authority from the people.

12/7/2008 2:42:53 AM

right, and military officers have a vote just like anyone else, so by that metric, it's equal footing. In addition, if you're looking at things this way, a Private is on equal footing with a General.

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 8:34 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

12/7/2008 8:29:29 AM

I would hope it's fairly obvious that in spirit the military exists to serve the greater good of the citizenry and in that respect sense a serviceman is outranked by his duty to protect and defend

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 8:40 AM. Reason : .]

12/7/2008 8:40:11 AM

well yeah, but a soldier is also a citizen

and this is a silly argument to begin with

12/7/2008 8:42:58 AM

Please show me what reg or instruction says cadets/midshipmen outrank enlisted. Not even on paper do Midshipmen/Cadets > Enlisted.

12/7/2008 8:42:59 AM

not exactly a reg or instruction...wiki "officer cadet"

From the section regarding the United States:

Officer Cadets are generally paid below the standard pay rates for junior officers but receive some of the rights and responsibilities of a junior officer during their training. Officer Cadets are nominally in the chain of command and have, in certain battles, been the surviving officer in a unit and thus in command.[citation needed] Officer cadets, trainees, and midshipmen are considered Geneva Conventions Category III personnel.

I am not 100% sure on this, and it doesn't really matter, because it is only a nominal distinction, but I'm pretty sure this is the case.

12/7/2008 8:53:35 AM

Right. I also wear officer uniforms, with midshipman insignia of course. Most junior enlisted have saluted me and other midshipmen, usually because they had never seen one before.

It's all a moot point, though. Next Wednesday I'll be sworn in as an Ensign.

12/7/2008 9:24:59 AM

^ yeah, they just didn't know what you were.

For that matter, I bet I got saluted a dozen or more different times by Ensigns when I was a 2nd Lt. Marines don't wear rank on the shoulders of their flight suits--only on the cover. Ensigns didn't see it and didn't know what I was.

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 9:41 AM. Reason : asdfa]

12/7/2008 9:38:41 AM

^In that case,

Yea, I'd be looking for whether you had gotten your wings or not. Don't know how long it takes to get one's wings exactly, but it would mean that have a bit more time than an Ensign who just showed up to Pensecola.

12/7/2008 9:57:08 AM

Depends on what you fly...less than a year for helos (and then after you get your wings, another few months in your specific model at the RAG/FRS), up to 2+ years for jets (and another year + in your specific model at the RAG/FRS).

...but you have to be careful with that trick, too, because there are enlisted aircrew who wear flight suits (and have aircrew wings). Just look at the rank on the cover.

12/8/2008 9:20:19 PM

as enlisted navy, when i was in bootcamp, we were instructed to salute Midshipmen and treat them as if they were junior officers.

when i got to the fleet, we just ignored them and pretended they didnt exist -- unless they got in the way then we could yell at them.

12/8/2008 11:22:44 PM

the truth is somewhere in the middle (and leaning towards the latter)

12/8/2008 11:30:17 PM

in my experience, they didnt interface with enlisted much at all. they just tailed officers and mostly kept their mouths shut. but i was a jr. enlisted E-3 and was pretty far out of the loop, so wtf did i know really

12/8/2008 11:45:31 PM

i've never been around them as a Marine aviator, but that sounds about right to me.

12/9/2008 8:08:14 AM

^^i'm not sure how recent they started doing it, but in between sophomore and junior year, our midshipman cruise is built around shadowing enlisted personnel - I was attached to a submarine, shadowing the LPO in the Radio room. so I (and the other rising juniors who were shadowing enlisted) would also sleep in the enlisted berthing (spared hotracking thankfully), use the enlisted head, and eat in the enlisted mess.

Quote :

"Depends on what you fly...less than a year for helos (and then after you get your wings, another few months in your specific model at the RAG/FRS), up to 2+ years for jets (and another year + in your specific model at the RAG/FRS). ...but you have to be careful with that trick, too, because there are enlisted aircrew who wear flight suits (and have aircrew wings). Just look at the rank on the cover."

well of course i'm gonna try to look at the cover. but enlisted would have silver wings vice gold.

12/9/2008 8:33:10 AM

Quote :

"enlisted would have silver wings vice gold."

There are gold breast insignia that are worn by both officers and enlisted (both USMC and Navy).

On another note, the MC does not create separate badges of the same qualification for officers and enlisted as is generally done in the Navy .

12/9/2008 1:52:02 PM

Only a couple in the Navy that I know of - Parachutist and SEAL.

Don't know much about Marine badges outside of Marksmanship.

12/9/2008 2:57:34 PM

I, too, outrank chembob

Ehhhh not really.

12/9/2008 3:00:30 PM

Like I said, next Wednesday, it's a moot point. An Ensign is an Ensign.

12/9/2008 3:01:32 PM

So you'd be the first to die on an away mission with Kirk, Bones, Scotty and McCoy?

12/9/2008 3:02:30 PM

Yes.

[Edited on December 9, 2008 at 3:03 PM. Reason : You do realize Bones is McCoy, right?]

12/9/2008 3:02:51 PM

Yeah, I guess... Not much of a Space Trek fan.

12/9/2008 3:03:48 PM

ROFL

12/9/2008 3:04:12 PM

12/9/2008 3:05:00 PM

Effective 1400 tomorrow: ENS chembob

12/16/2008 4:08:33 PM

wtg, butterbar.

12/16/2008 4:43:07 PM

Thanks schmoe.

12/18/2008 10:17:35 AM

12/18/2008 2:59:58 PM