3

1/22/2009 9:25:50 AM

Quote :

"denial of medical treatment"

How are they "denying" medical treatment? The prisoner could buy medical services if they wanted to... no different than you or I. (prison guard escort to the hospital and back, at the prisoners expense...or doctor visits the prison) If they can't afford it, they should still be in the same boat as someone not imprisoned that can't afford it. (must resort to health insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, charity...) And if their situation worsens to an emergency because they failed to buy (or have bought for them,) medical treatment, they should still be in the same boat as someone not imprisoned who's situation worsens to an emergency. There is no reason to justify prisoners being entitled to health care. None.


Also, I think this is a somewhat interesting idea:

Quote :

"Shouldn't death-row inmates, if anyone, be allowed to commit suicide? Think about it. Why is suicide illegal in the first place? Should that apply to those sentenced to die?"

(no one responded when I posted it before)

1/22/2009 9:39:34 AM

you do realize that a person's ability to earn money while confined to a prison is SEVERLY restricted, right?

They're not going to pay you minimum wage to cook in the kitchen. In fact, many private prison companies sell their inmates' labor out to other manufacturing companies because....well....they don't have to pay inmates.

I guess I'm not understanding why you think a prisoner has the funds to pay a doctor?


I was saying in my earlier post that prisons can't deny this medical treatment....in agreement with what seedless was trying to say.




p.s., I can get medical treatment much easier than an inmate. Are you serious?

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 9:51 AM. Reason : .]

1/22/2009 9:48:00 AM

Fry em

1/22/2009 9:54:23 AM

Quote :

"I guess I'm not understanding why you think a prisoner has the funds to pay a doctor?"

Who cares? Do you care if some random guy on the street doesn't have the funds to pay a doctor? How is this different?

Quote :

"you do realize that a person's ability to earn money while confined to a prison is SEVERLY restricted, right?"

So what? They should've thought of that before. What if, for some reason other than I was incarcerated, I couldn't work, and therefore couldn't earn enough money to pay for my medical costs? This is no different. It's wise to have savings, or private health insurance.

Even though I'd be opposed to it also, why doesn't the state simply designate all inmates as qualifying for Medicaid? After all, inmates are low-income.... Instead, prisoners are the only class of citizen that is entitled to health care -- which is complete bullshit.

Quote :

" was saying in my earlier post that prisons can't deny this medical treatment....in agreement with what seedless was trying to say"

What? Be clear. You said something, and he said something. You said:

Quote :

"I think the point that seedless was trying to make is that the denial of medical treatment IS viewed as a punishment. For example, prisoners that aren't on death row are not being sent to prison to die. Denying them medical treatment in this case equates to locking someone away against their will, with no way to seek medical attention that they might otherwise receive while not incarcerated."

Don't speak for someone else. Is this what you are saying? (Who cares? you said it. I'm responding to it.)

Quote :

"I can get medical treatment much easier than an inmate. Are you serious?"

What is this in response to? (Please provide a quote of everything you are responding to)
Are you saying that simply being incarcerated makes it more inconvenient? (who cares?)
...or are you saying that something else makes it harder for inmates to get treatment?

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 10:11 AM. Reason : ]

1/22/2009 10:02:22 AM

"Who cares? Do you care if some random guy on the street doesn't have the funds to pay a doctor? How is this different?"

point being, some random guy on the street is not in prison. random guy on the street has a means to earn money to support himself. Now, the price of healthcare is an entirely different issue. But the fact remains that a prisoner cannot go get a job as an engineer in order to pay for medical bills.


"So what? They should've thought of that before. What if, for some reason other than I was incarcerated, I couldn't work, and therefore couldn't earn enough money to pay for my medical costs? This is no different. It's wise to have savings, or private health insurance."

Again, if you're incarcerated, you're not sent to prison to necessarily die. if you are sent to death row, you're to die by state sanctioned means. If you're a prisoner, and your kidneys fail, you obviously need treatment. treatment that has to be provided for you if you can't go seek it on your own.
Are you trying to tell me...that you think...that prisoner's are able to use their savings (outside of prison) to provide treatment (or anything) while incarcerated?

"or are you saying that something else makes it harder for inmates to get treatment?"

bingo.

finding qualified healthcare is pretty hard when 1) you can't pay them, 2) you can't choose them and 3) you're probably being treated within the walls of the prison.

In many cases, healthcare in a prison equates to keeping you alive. not helping you get better.

this is why I argue with your statement that an inmate can get the same healthcare as you or I

anyway, far off topic.



DEATH PENALTY.





[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason : .]

1/22/2009 10:23:18 AM

Quote :

"I am strongly against it for the following reasons. 1. no human should ever play God, no matter what the person has done. Its hypocritical. 2. Someone being in jail for life allows them to actually have a better chance to reflect on what they have done. Also allowing them to give back to society for what they have done through service. 3. death penalties cost more, its cheaper to keep someone in jail for life. Why waste more tax payer money? 4. It sends a bad message and hardly any countries have the death penalty, the U.S. is one of the last countries that still enforces this. I favor life sentences w/o parole."

Death by imprisonment...the longest, most cruel demise.

Quote :

"that is the biggest misconception of the death penalty. its NOT cheaper. "

I always thought that was common knowledge

(to everyone except for ScHpEnXeL, at least)

Quote :

"this is assuming that everyone is a christian believing in god to begin with... "

Jesus...atheists with victim mindsets. who bristle at even a whisper of the "g-word".

At any rate, it's more of a figure of speech than a religious viewpoint. Even an atheist can disagree with the something on the grounds that it's "playing God".

Quote :

"Shouldn't death-row inmates, if anyone, be allowed to commit suicide? Think about it. Why is suicide illegal in the first place? Should that apply to those sentenced to die? "

There you go...I bet most of them would do it on their own accord. I know I would...hell, as it stands now, if I ever got imprisoned for life (or close to it), I'd probably start killing "extra bad" inmates until they gave me the death penalty, just so I could go ahead and get it over with. No way would I want to rot away in a cell.

Quote :

"saving a life > killing a life."

Which brings us to the best argument I've ever heard in support of capital punishment. Essentially--and I can't prove these numbers--I'm just putting this out there as something to consider--the factor that should be by far most heavily weighted is maximum net preservation of innocent life. In other words, if we have the death penalty, even with modern forensics and our lengthy appeals system, we will all but certainly get the wrong guy and execute someone for something he/she didn't do in at least a small, rare, handful of cases. However, if we didn't have the death penalty, the number of prison guards, minor offender inmates, and even people outside the prison (in cases of escapes) that are killed by death row inmates that we elected not to execute would likely be greater.

GrumpyGOP has greater familiarity with this argument and might can back it up with some actual statistics.

Quote :

"All of you in favor of the death penalty would probably fold if you actually had to kill the person yourself. "

I'm in favor of capital punishment, although it's not a hot-button issue for me...I'm only slightly-to-moderately in favor of it. However, I firmly believe that capital-case juries and judges should be required to witness the executions that they recommended, and that member(s) should randomly be selected to be the one to throw the switch/push the button. I think this would add some accountability to the system. Do you really think this man should be put to death? Fine, then. Put your money where your mouth is.

Quote :

"I'm more interested in making inmates clean up our roads and doing crappy jobs not even mexicans will do."

haha, death row inmates don't clean up any highways.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 10:32 AM. Reason : asdf]

1/22/2009 10:31:54 AM

Quote :

"CAN OF WORMS"

1/22/2009 10:32:41 AM

^^^
So it all boils down to the fact that they can't easily earn much money, if any...

Well, if they have preexisting health insurance coverage, or saved money, they should use that to pay for whatever health care they want or need. If they don't have insurance or savings, and since being an inmate forces them to be low-income, (boo hoo ) then why not this:

Quote :

"Even though I'd be opposed to it also, why doesn't the state simply designate all inmates as qualifying for Medicaid? After all, inmates are low-income....Instead, prisoners are the only class of citizen that is entitled to health care"

Wouldn't that be easier and more constitutional than what we have now?

Or, couldn't a private company and/or charity provide low cost health insurance to inmates?

Although, now that I think about it, why do all inmates have to be low-income? Isn't it possible, albeit difficult, for inmates to remain employed? (not by the prison, by some other employer, or self-employed) The inconvenience that prison places on earning money should simply be regarded as part of the punishment, and the fact that that tends to make some inmates low-income and therefore less able to pay for their own health care, isn't cruel and unusual at all -- that's life. They can still earn money. They can run a million-dollar web site. They can write books. However, if they fail to, and can only manage to earn a little bit, they still aren't any different than those in the same situation that aren't incarcerated. That poverty-complicated health-care-cost issue is the same, and should be treated the same whether or not one is incarcerated.

Quote :

"if you're incarcerated, you're not sent to prison to necessarily die."

This is an overly emotional exaggerated straw-man. Please stop repeating it.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 10:52 AM. Reason : ]

1/22/2009 10:51:51 AM

What is the name of that movie where they take a bunch of Death Row inmates to an island and hunt them like wild game?

1/22/2009 10:54:46 AM

"Well, if they have preexisting health insurance coverage, or saved money, they should use that to pay for whatever health care they want or need. If they don't have insurance or savings,"

Preexisting health insurance that I'm sure has lapsed because an inmate can't pay monthly premiums?
Saved money, that is basically off limits while they are incarcerated?

I'm sorry man, but if this is your fundamental understanding of insurance, the penal system in general, and basic HUMAN rights...I don't really see how you have a leg to stand on, or could possibly have an informed opinion on the subject. You sir, are excused. Good day.

1/22/2009 11:02:54 AM

in favor.

i think we should get rid of lethal injections. putting someone to sleep before killing them is not terrifying enough to convince a hardened criminal not to commit a crime worthy of capital punishment. we need to bring back stuff like firing squads, hangings, the chair, etc.

Quote :

"eye for an eye"

this could work too, to an extent, as long as it doesn't cost the state a lot of money. example: you kill your child by drowning it in a bathtub. well, grow some gills, jackass, because you're about to get tossed into the stormwater retention pond behind the prison with 200 lbs of concrete strapped to your legs.

1/22/2009 11:05:44 AM

no punishment that any civilized society would implement is going to have a substantial, if any, deterrant effect.

1/22/2009 11:17:10 AM

Quote :

"Preexisting health insurance that I'm sure has lapsed because an inmate can't pay monthly premiums"

They can if they're sufficiently employed, or have adequate savings.

Quote :

"Saved money, that is basically off limits while they are incarcerated?"

Why would a prison prohibit inmates from spending their own money?...especially on health care...?

Quote :

"if this is your fundamental understanding"

What is this crap? What could possibly have led you to conclude that my understanding of these things isn't "informed"? Because I'm proposing different ways of doing things? I'm not saying "Rabble rabble this is the way things are!", I'm simply saying "Hey, since this and this, why not this?" I'm just fucking discussing issues. Chill out.

Quote :

"You sir, are excused"

Give me a fucking break. At least respond to the questions you never addressed:

Quote :

"Well, if they have preexisting health insurance coverage, or saved money, they should use that to pay for whatever health care they want or need. If they don't have insurance or savings, and since being an inmate forces them to be low-income, (boo hoo ) then why not this:"

Quote :

"Even though I'd be opposed to it also, why doesn't the state simply designate all inmates as qualifying for Medicaid? After all, inmates are low-income....Instead, prisoners are the only class of citizen that is entitled to health care"

Quote :

"Wouldn't that be easier and more constitutional than what we have now? Or, couldn't a private company and/or charity provide low cost health insurance to inmates? Although, now that I think about it, why do all inmates have to be low-income? Isn't it possible, albeit difficult, for inmates to remain employed? (not by the prison, by some other employer, or self-employed) The inconvenience that prison places on earning money should simply be regarded as part of the punishment, and the fact that that tends to make some inmates low-income and therefore less able to pay for their own health care, isn't cruel and unusual at all -- that's life. They can still earn money. They can run a million-dollar web site. They can write books. However, if they fail to, and can only manage to earn a little bit, they still aren't any different than those in the same situation that aren't incarcerated. That poverty-complicated health-care-cost issue is the same, and should be treated the same whether or not one is incarcerated."

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 11:21 AM. Reason : ]

1/22/2009 11:18:30 AM

^^ exactly. you can just watch any episode of COPS if you want to see that in action. Take, for example, all the idiots with 3+ DUIs

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 11:19 AM. Reason : a]

1/22/2009 11:19:12 AM

All you people claiming we should kill murderers in inhumane ways (drowning, beatings, however they killed the person they did) are either sick or blatantly unaware of how sick you have to be to do something like that. The kind of person who'd carry out an execution like that is only marginally less disturbed than the murderer himself.

1/22/2009 11:22:55 AM

There are a few real bottom-of-the-barrel offenders that I would gladly personally beat to death, or forcibly drown, or whatever, and I don't think that I'm sick or disturbed or anything.

That doesn't mean that I think we should do anything like that institutionally. I have to question anyone who believes that.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 11:27 AM. Reason : asdf]

1/22/2009 11:26:28 AM

For those of you against the death penalty but still bitch about taxes and the economy:

Quote :

"Prisons cost taxpayers more than $32 billion a year. Every year that an inmate spends in prison costs $22,000. An individual sentenced to five years for a $300 theft costs the public more than $100,000. The cost of a life term averages $1.5 million."

http://www.heartsandminds.org/prisons/facts.htm

1/22/2009 11:28:23 AM

^^ Yeah it's much easier to decree that everyone should be put to death by someone else without actually getting one's own hands dirty.

1/22/2009 11:28:28 AM

Quote :

"no punishment that any civilized society would implement is going to have a substantial, if any, deterrant effect. "

agreed. and ^^^ agreed.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 11:29 AM. Reason : ^^]

1/22/2009 11:29:31 AM

I think a lot of people have a twisted view of what a prison is/should be. It's almost as if they look at prisons are their personal revenge system.

1/22/2009 11:29:31 AM

well that is the point isn't it. whether our prison system exists for people to be punished for their crimes and rehabilitated OR if it exists just for vengeful purposes.

1/22/2009 11:30:58 AM

Do not want.

1/22/2009 11:32:40 AM

" punished for their crimes and rehabilitated"
removal of that threat from normal society, and deterance (laugh)

...correct. Our current system isn't intended for the latter (vengence)

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason : .]

1/22/2009 11:36:04 AM

I think it also varies based upon the type of crime and the type of criminal. There are plenty of opportunities for rehabilitation in our prisons, but it is up to the criminal to WANT to be rehabilitated. Therein lies the problem with the system. Some criminals just simply cannot be rehabilitated.

1/22/2009 11:39:31 AM

that's true. I wouldn't dare begin to argue that everyone that gets out of prison is magically a 'good seed'.

1/22/2009 11:43:13 AM

true, to an extent. but the prison system does a horrible job of "rehabilitating"

hence the reason why people go in a criminal, come out a BETTER criminal.

i mean, there are many reasons why it happens. overpopulation of prisons for one. but then you have to look at why that is happening, etc etc etc. there are many aspects of society that play into it. no simple solution. and no one set of people to place the blame on.

unless you want to blame the criminals, but that seems too easy!

1/22/2009 11:43:24 AM

either you slingin' crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot

1/22/2009 11:44:41 AM

i just think there should be more rehabilitative programs (obviously not for the death row and hardcore people). but no one wants to give prisoners a "free ride" or whatever. so it never works out.

1/22/2009 11:47:29 AM

1/22/2009 11:49:14 AM

anyone who goes to prison without a HS diploma should be required to get their GED before being paroled.

1/22/2009 11:49:43 AM

nah education is over rated

I know plenty of high school dropouts that are 10 times smarter than people with Masters

I ain't have to graduate from Lincoln High School to know that

1/22/2009 11:51:08 AM

it's not even for the education factor, but making the point that you will have to do something to prove you want to better yourself if you want to get the fuck up outta here

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason : a]

1/22/2009 11:52:00 AM

well i think the education part helps, too

especially if people learn a little bit about managing money and a few practical things. stuff like computer training would be good too (i mean you usually have to take a computer class in hs). just opens up more opportunity for success.

it would also be cool if there were job placement services. i don't know if there are, but i feel like there should be. for inmates about to be paroled. instead of just shoving them out there with a shirt, pants, and like $200 bucks (or whatever). some places have those 1/2 way programs where you go live in a house with other recently paroled people and get counseling and help finding a job, etc. but only some places have that.

1/22/2009 11:55:15 AM

we are talkin about persons convicted of capital crimes


whats all this talk about readmittance into society and halfway houses n shit


JAIL mothafuckas. JAIL.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 12:07 PM. Reason : JAIL. thats the only readmittance a convict gets]

1/22/2009 12:07:10 PM

Quote :

"i just think there should be more rehabilitative programs (obviously not for the death row and hardcore people)."

^convo shifted.

1/22/2009 12:12:53 PM

I like when people who protest the hell out of the death penalty, beg for other people to be terminated on here

I'm Big Business and i approved this message.

1/22/2009 12:13:49 PM

my bad

lol

1/22/2009 12:13:59 PM

^^ haha wat

^ yea we got distracted. oops. back to the jailbirds.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 12:14 PM. Reason : .]

1/22/2009 12:14:35 PM

i like EMCE's other thread better

1/22/2009 12:15:22 PM

I personally don't want inmates learning about money and our economy. Then they will realize once and for all that selling drugs is about the best job you can have. No lay-offs, no taxes, set your own hours.

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason : a]

1/22/2009 12:15:34 PM

nah man you dont set your own hours

on the grind from 9 to 9

1/22/2009 12:17:11 PM

hahahaha.

i meant learning about how to manage their money. not like how to invest in the stock market with the $100 they get when they leave jail.

i mean like basic financial integrity.

1/22/2009 12:18:14 PM

not if you have a few little niggas working for you

1/22/2009 12:18:17 PM

In order for rehab. to work, there would have to be a change on the outside too. a change in society.

as it stands now, when a felon is released he 1) can't find work with almost anyone. few people hire felons. very few. how many job applications have you seen that ask "have you every been convicted of a felony?"
a lot of times, that's an instant disqualifier.

2) can't find good housing. many neighborhoods, apartments, etc... will NOT rent to felongs, or anyone with a criminal history.



hah. get out of prison, be broke, hanginng around and living with other felons, faced with many of the same influences that put you in the bing to begin with.
I bet that plays a large part in why people return to prison.

1/22/2009 12:41:52 PM

b-i-n-g-o
b-i-n-g-o
b-i-n-g-o
and bingo was his namoooooo

1/22/2009 12:55:59 PM

That Virginia Tech Chinese killer does not deserve to live.

1/22/2009 1:01:25 PM

On principle, I don't like it. But I also see little hope for rehabilitation in a number of these more serious/violent repeat offenders. So I guess my opinion on the death penalty is that it's complicated.

1/22/2009 1:04:05 PM

^^he would probably rather die than get shipped back to a Chinese prison

[Edited on January 22, 2009 at 1:06 PM. Reason : a]

1/22/2009 1:06:02 PM

I'm for it in theory, but in practice it's more costly than life in prison, so let's not waste the tax dollars.

1/22/2009 1:07:11 PM