Don't let them get you off the track. We should get at least one day to point out the bloated tax system, and the runaway tax and spending from both parties.

4/15/2009 10:32:21 AM

Quote :

"For years, under Republican and Democratic leadership, the government on the local, state, and federal levels have been taxing working people's income and giving it to people who dont work. It's been called a bunch of things: wealth redistribution, and social justice are a few examples. their political power base"

Fixed it for you. Both sides do this on a regular basis. The morality of this still remains repugnant.

4/15/2009 12:09:28 PM

These things are ridiculously gay.

"We don't like federal spending when it's not our guy!"

4/15/2009 1:03:11 PM

I went to the one in Enterprise, Alabama. I was actually impressed. A lot of the people I talked to were as angry at Senator Shelby for bringing pork into Alabama even though it was a largely right of center crowd.

I like to think that people are genuinely tired of having their representatives pay lip service to their constituents while generally ignoring them between elections. We'll see in the next cycle.

4/15/2009 2:13:04 PM

I was watching coverage on CNBC earlier. Apparently the one in Lansing, MI had a lot of people show up with holstered firearms to protest Obama taking away their guns too.

4/15/2009 2:39:34 PM

over the past couple of weeks, it's become more than just anti-tax rally

it's now a general grievance demonstration

it's pretty much on par with "yes we can" now

it becomes whatever you want it to be

4/15/2009 2:52:10 PM

No, what it really is is rich people shelling out money to organize poor people to protest the amount of taxation the rich people pay.

4/15/2009 3:06:47 PM

4/15/2009 3:08:44 PM

Well then fuck it. I'm going to go tonight and protest that I want them to bring back "The Tick".

4/15/2009 3:09:37 PM

I think any "the Tick" revival protest should have its own night.

4/15/2009 3:22:44 PM

animated, or live action?

4/15/2009 3:29:03 PM

I think we'd claim to represent both, but the live action people would claim we were really just representing animated values (or possibly vice versa).

4/15/2009 4:11:14 PM

Quote :

"No, what it really is is rich people shelling out money to organize poor people to protest the amount of taxation the rich people pay."

any backing for this assertion?

4/15/2009 5:42:15 PM

Quote :

"Apparently the one in Lansing, MI had a lot of people show up with holstered firearms to protest Obama taking away their guns too."

fucking brilliant.

4/15/2009 6:10:57 PM

Quote :

""No, what it really is is rich people shelling out money to organize poor people to protest the amount of taxation the rich people pay.""

This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. The vast vast majority of people I know would attend one of these and are not rich. It's not just about rich or poor, it's about the track of our country and the desent from traditional values.

4/15/2009 6:40:16 PM

Quote :

"any backing for this assertion?"

It's a fact that this is from well-funded top-down think tanks - FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity. Considering these groups are composed of millionaires themselves, they are worried about their taxes going up, ergo they want to raise a hornet's nest by astroturfing events of middle and low class republicans to scream about 'high taxes' when the fucking funny thing is that he is CUTTING 95% of their taxes. Fox News is blowing up these small little protests giving it 100% plaster media coverage which assists them with tailwind and creating a message.

These idiots will go home on Apr. 15 with tax benefits, most of them....that's the stupid irony of all this. But slap on some teabags and setup the Lee Greenwood because the socialist, fascists are in the white house and we gotta be doing something about that, eh?

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 6:41 PM. Reason : LOL at traditional values. ]

4/15/2009 6:40:35 PM

Quote :

"It's a fact that this is from well-funded top-down think tanks - FreedomWorks and Americans for Prosperity."

The group I saw today, while copying a national idea, was locally organized.

Quote :

"Considering these groups are composed of millionaires themselves"

There are millionaires across a broad spectrum of political ideas, generally working in their own self interest. If that interest happens to be in line with mine, what is wrong with me working with them?

Quote :

"they are worried about their taxes going up, ergo they want to raise a hornet's nest by astroturfing events of middle and low class republicans to scream about 'high taxes' when the fucking funny thing is that he is CUTTING 95% of their taxes."

Personally, as a middle-middle class income worker, I find a dubious morality of one political party taxing a small but affluent portion of society to essentially buy votes elsewhere. I also have a problem with the inherent economic inefficiencies of the mis-allocation of resources though this policy.

However, I personally stand to lose massively from the potential inflationary pressures of the current monetary and fiscal policies driven largely by the interests of the troubled finance industry. Those who stand to benefit aren't the middle class that both parties pay lip service to but the wealthy who donate in large amount to both parties. If you doubt that Barack Obama and the Democratic party are sensitive to these influences, take a look at the top ten donors to his campaign.

University of California $1,385,675
Goldman Sachs $980,945
Microsoft Corp $806,299
Harvard University $793,460
Google Inc $790,564
Citigroup Inc $657,268
JPMorgan Chase & Co $650,758
Stanford University $580,904
Sidley Austin LLP $574,938
Time Warner $547,951


and lets look at John McCain's top 10:
Merrill Lynch $371,295
Citigroup Inc $320,251
Morgan Stanley $271,152
Goldman Sachs $230,095
JPMorgan Chase & Co $225,557
US Government $207,829
AT&T Inc $194,913
UBS AG $182,079
Credit Suisse Group $179,053
Wachovia Corp $169,057

( http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638 )


This is beyond taxes.

4/15/2009 7:15:33 PM

Quote :

" I also have a problem with the inherent economic inefficiencies of the mis-allocation of resources though this policy. However, I personally stand to lose massively from the potential inflationary pressures of the current monetary and fiscal policies driven largely by the interests of the troubled finance industry."

These sentences in your post don't make a bit of sense. Sorry, what? Plus the counter argument you are making about contributors sets up a completely separate and irrelevant argument. I'm not so sure how to respond but to say, 'HURH?'

I will make a comment on what you see as 'grassroots' by telling you that these events were actually fielded by lobbyist-run think tanks - EXTREMELY well staffed and funded ones. Yes they utilize local activists but that doesn't mean that they don't coordinate and run these things across the U.S. They also own all PR and media buys for this, as well as online publication promoting them. Sorry but you can't run away from the fact that this is not grassroots...it's Astroturf.

4/15/2009 7:30:43 PM

^^

I don't think there is really a point in pointing out that the people with the most money donate the most money. That's not really a meaningful correlation, without other aspects.

4/15/2009 7:54:09 PM

I'm sorry if I didn't make the connections clear.

1) Finance in the United States goes pretty much tits up in mid / late 2008
2) Bush Tres Sec Paulson proposes $700b bailout on a 3 page document
3) Voters react angrily against bailout.
4) Modified bailout passes anyway
5) Wall Street continues to slide, people finally admit United States is in a recession
6) Barack Obama elected President of the United States
7) President Obama proposes $1T bailout
8) Lawmakers "oppose" said bailout
9) Lawmakers pass said bailout

It goes on like this, many voters feel like they simply aren't being heard or that their voices are being ignored, by both parties, in favor of the wealthy. In this crisis in particular, there seems to be a strong bias towards the interests of Wall Street. This isn't surprising seeing that Robert Rubin, Henry Paulson, Robert Zoellick, Joshua Bolten, and Joshua Bolten are all Goldman Sachs alumni who have also had executive department positions.


I also haven't made any strong assertions that this is a purely grass-roots event, simply what I observed at my local event. I'm not sure what your strange obsession with their backing is or why the backing of these events compromises the legitimacy of the protesters. Extremely well staffed and funded special interest groups were behind the election of Barack Obama. Does that deny the legitimacy of his election?


I'm simply not up for delving into the economics of this tonight. If I feel like coming back to it tomorrow I will.


^ I agree wholly. I was just pointing out that the wealthy give in large numbers to both parties. I'm just attacking the idea that one party or the other has a lock on being influenced by this money.


On a related note, here is a completely unprofessional and asinine report by a CNN reporter:

4/15/2009 8:08:51 PM

Whats unprofessional about it? People were spouting obscenities at her the whole time.

4/15/2009 8:17:51 PM

I guess some people missed the Clinton years when we all learned that it was really "Communist News Network" to people like this.

4/15/2009 8:25:07 PM

man: Lincoln believed everyone had a right to liberty!!

reporter: sir, what does that have to do with taxes?

how unprofessional

4/15/2009 8:34:37 PM

The end result of this will be the GOP running on the Fair Tax in 2012 and losing. They might have a shot otherwise but anger like this is rarely channeled into a long-term campaign, especially when it's such a partisan group engaging in this.

A friend went to the Greensboro one today. Figured he'd take a look since it was nearby and he's fairly sympathetic to them as a conservative, but even he said it was a waste of time and embarassing. Apparenly 1,000 people showed up but basically it was just a "get angry at the government and yell a lot rally". People with signs, people giving speeches about how Obama wants to tax you at 90% and how, yes, he is a Kenyan Muslim.

Basically it was open mic yelling.

4/15/2009 8:50:59 PM

That guy is yelling in his babies ear, lol

must be angry

I actually thought the original tea parties (not the boston one but Im pretty sure there were some last year) was to raise awareness of the libertarian assertion that the Income tax is unconstitutional

Also note the HR1207 signs in the background of that clip. Thats Ron Paul's bill to audit the Federal Reserve, something I could get on board with

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 9:03 PM. Reason : *]

4/15/2009 8:59:41 PM

I thought the Boston tea party was a drunken spiteful vandalism that was meant to look like Native Americans did it.

4/15/2009 9:05:46 PM

Quote :

"Whats unprofessional about it? People were spouting obscenities at her the whole time."

As a journalist friend of mine said, a reporters job is to cover the news, not become the news. Involving yourself as a reporter in political debate you're ostensibly reporting on is the definition of unprofessional.


^^^ I can only speak for the one I went to. I wasn't an active participant, mostly a curious observer. Protests, of all political stripes, tend to attract the emotionally disenfranchised; some with intelligent political commentary, some without. The crowd I observed was extremely polite, somewhat eclectic, and enthusiastic but not angry. I don't think anyone expected nuanced political discussion about the comparative merits of limited versus activist government.

Quote :

"The end result of this will be the GOP running on the Fair Tax in 2012 and losing."

I don't see this happening. This sort of anger is what fueled the 1992 Republican take-over of the house so I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Regardless, the simple fact that so much attention has been paid to them makes them somewhat effective. Personally, I don't support everything these people stand for, but there is a remarkable amount of condescending and dismissive treatment of these events, and that generally tends to feed these sort of fires, not squelch them.

4/15/2009 9:07:36 PM

im so glad this is happening

it needs to be done

4/15/2009 9:35:29 PM

^

4/15/2009 9:39:48 PM

Quote :

"This sort of anger is what fueled the 1992 Republican take-over of the house so I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand."

Excellent point. The dems ignore this at their own peril. Go ahead and concentrate on who organized each tax protest. Go ahead and dismiss them all as racists and gun-nuts.

The people ridiculing these events are on the side on high taxes, a bloated tax system, and runaway pork spending. You claim that the protestors are being played by the rich.. Well you are being played by power-hungry politicians.

"The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets." – Will Rogers

4/15/2009 9:44:18 PM

this is democracy in action

4/15/2009 9:45:16 PM

I had a good time at the tea party in virginia. Everyone in a good mood, had some good speakers, heard no racist comments or racist signs (despite being promised there would be some by a poster on here), even saw a couple people with obama shirts on. We all had a good laugh when one speaker called us all terrorists. Clearly the police got the message as there were NONE present at the event. A couple college kids organized this event and did a pretty good job except for controlling the rain.

The messages were mostly about spending and govt overreaching its powers. Also, a lot of talk about state govt waste and need for balance budget.

IT was good to see a lot of support for the fairtax as well.

4/15/2009 9:59:12 PM

You mean people had a peaceful demonstration and not a racially charged Obama bitch fest like MSNBC said they all would be.

4/15/2009 10:12:37 PM

^
Let me ask Eyedrb, was the crowd mainly made up of filthy rich people angrily waving their polo mallets in the air?

4/15/2009 10:16:55 PM

no, it was probably made up of ill-informed middle-class people who don't know what the definition of socialism is

4/15/2009 10:18:57 PM

Let me ask, Eyedrb...I saw one protester with a Robert Heinlein quote on his sign. Was he a brain-dead droid given the sign by the right-wing overlords?

Excellent 2 minute video from Reason TV...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv4OeKmWjOI

And hey Supplanter, maybe think about this.. also from Reason...

Quote :

"While conservatives are planning nationwide “Tea Parties” protesting taxes—and even same-sex marriage—same-sex couples are planning some tea parties of their own, to protest the government overcharging them. The rationale: because same-sex couples are not recognized by the federal government, they face higher taxes than straight married couples. Couples around the country will be handing out fliers at post offices educating Americans about this unfairness in the tax code. A group in Boston is even throwing their tax forms into the Boston Harbor."

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 10:47 PM. Reason : .]

4/15/2009 10:25:16 PM

Quote :

"I saw one protester with a Robert Heinlein quote on his sign. Was he a brain-dead droid given the sign by the right-wing overlords?"

So? Is reading Heinlein some amazing sign of integrity now?

I think my problem is my idea of solutions is too cerebral. That, and I don't trust these people to rewrite the tax code. We need a simple one, not a bad one or none at all.

Unless we're gonna just drop this whole union of states altogether and go for local governance over all else and form a confederacy which I see as really the only sensible solution to the problems of a central gov. controlling so much territory.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 11:51 PM. Reason : .]

4/15/2009 11:46:40 PM

thank goodness that shit is over. hopefully I can now get back to the usual idiots on FoxNews

4/16/2009 12:00:48 AM

Teabagging ftw

4/16/2009 1:36:58 AM

Earthdogg, it was a good mix of people. I saw a couple men in suits, but most people were wearing jeans and jackets and had thier families with them. There were a lot of college students there as well. Id say the majority appeared to be the working middle class. The only time I thought there might be some trouble is when the two with obama shirts showed up.. but the only thing I heard said to them was "welcome". So I forgot about them quickly, although I did turn around to see them cheering for one of the speakers.

Really, it was a nice event and good experience. imo

4/16/2009 9:46:37 AM

Quote :

"Excellent point. The dems ignore this at their own peril. "

lols. Dude we're talking about only thousands across the U.S of mostly fringe disgruntled extremely conservative people with 10% Ron Paulites.

If your corporate sponsored project is to field an stir up an AstroTurf national protest with full media coverage and huge corporate buy-in's and an entire gigantic news network promoting the shit out of it YET you can't net over a handfuls / hundreds to each of these things - you got PROBLEMS. I appreciate the civic activism but man they got a long way to go to get good at this.

I'm still trying to figure out how Bush's tax structure is good ol' capitalism, but Obama comes in and lowers (or at least maintains) tax levels for 95% of Americans, and puts a fairly modest (by historical standards) tax increase on the other 5%, and suddenly it's Socialism.

And I still think it's dumb to call these things Tea Parties. The original Tea Party involved drunken destruction of private property that led to a violent revolution to kick out the existing government. It worked out well for us in the end, but is that really the image that these people want to conjure up?

I mean look at these guys....lol. The guy with the Don't Tread on Me flag hanging out of a fucking Porsche is my absolute favorite. Now nothing says revolt like THAT GUY.








[Edited on April 16, 2009 at 9:53 AM. Reason : -]

4/16/2009 9:47:22 AM

Quote :

"The lefties don't want to talk about the run-away spending of Obama and the congress, they don't want to talk about the bloated federal tax system that cost Americans hundreds of millions of dollars in compliance costs. They don't want to talk about the money we would save if the federal gov't was reigned back to its Constitutional limits. They don;t want to talk about how Obama and his buddies are trying to use taxes to punish the successful. Right now, the top 1% of wage-earners earn 19% of the income..but pay 40% of the income tax. What's fair about that? Libs have to talk around the subject of taxes, "They're racists!" "The protests are planned!" "Jon Stewart is making fun of them!" "Those bumpkin tax protesters aren't as sophisticated as I am!" Don't let them get you off the track. We should get at least one day to point out the bloated tax system, and the runaway tax and spending from both parties."

hehe

So have "the righties" been talking about this the past 8 years too then? because they've been in power most of that time, and we were pretty much in the same situation.

4/16/2009 9:58:30 AM

If you havent seen me bitch about spending in the last couple years, you havent been paying attention.

4/16/2009 10:13:03 AM

I'm not talking about you, i'm talking about the past republican president and republican congress. The same people who have been speaking at some of the tea parties, and who have been helping to spread the message.

Sadly, I think the idea behind the tea parties is a good one, but they chose a poor image to use (the real Boston Tea Party doesn't mirror the current situation in any way), and their most recognizable representatives have no credibility because they are the ones that had been perpetuating the same issues people are complaining about, prior to Obama. Not to mention the "official" website had rhetoric about "socialism" (which is the new communism) that really makes no sense from any perspective. Because of these issues, I think people were able to vent, but they never had any chance of gaining traction towards any real change.

4/16/2009 10:18:17 AM

Quote :

"... Obama comes in and lowers (or at least maintains) tax levels for 95% of Americans, and puts a fairly modest (by historical standards) tax increase on the other 5%, and suddenly it's Socialism."

Obama also gave "tax refunds" to people who paid no taxes. That's fair to everyone else, right?

And as long a we are stealing only a "fairly modest" more amount of money from the people who are already paying 60% of the income tax, that's OK.

The 95% of Americans will pay more if Obama pushes through energy cap and trade.

And taking over banks and car companies is the socialism part. Raising taxes on the wage-earners who are already footing most of the income tax is the tyranny part.

4/16/2009 10:19:37 AM

Quote :

"Obama also gave "tax refunds" to people who paid no taxes. That's fair to everyone else, right?"

This is the same thing the Fair Taxers plan to do too, are you against the Fair Tax too?

4/16/2009 10:20:44 AM

Quote :

" Obama also gave "tax refunds" to people who paid no taxes. That's fair to everyone else, right?"

you mean in the same way which the republican demagogue regan did?

4/16/2009 10:21:19 AM

Quote :

"Raising taxes on the wage-earners who are already footing most of the income tax is the tyranny part. "

no matter how you slice it a richer minority will pay the largest share of the taxes. if you control more of the money you'll pay the bulk of the taxes even if the tax rates are equal across the board. I guess we should have a regressive tax system (which if you do support if you agree with the fair tax system) and tax the rich less than everyone else to make the sums equal nominally.

4/16/2009 10:23:39 AM

Some righties don't want to admit it, but the reason they have finally come out of the caves to speak up about the spending issue is because instead of a white man spending all their money, a black man is doing it.

4/16/2009 10:26:24 AM

i don't think that is the case.

its more

instead of a white man republican spending all their money, a black man democrat is doing it.

4/16/2009 10:33:58 AM