^ I totally agree with everything you're saying. My approach only differs in that it is more "fool" (literally) proof.... It hedges against the pitfalls that newbies are prone to make, while perhaps sacrificing a little bit on the immediate performance-gain side....

Quote :

"I can't tell you how many times I've seen people wandering haplessly around the weight room, just going from machine to machine or exercise to exercise with no real rhyme or reason."

These are exactly the types of people that my advice was targeted towards... They're most likely to not know the proper form for the exercises they're doing and probably just wind up doing the easy/popular ones. In the end, they're increasing the risk of injury with that approach. That's all I'm trying to get at, which it looks like you understand so I guess we're in agreement.

Quote :

"I think you might be confusing lesser-used (and hence lesser worked) muscle groups with "smaller" muscles."

Yep, that's right. I was talking about lesser-used and lesser worked muscle groups.

[Edited on April 17, 2009 at 6:17 PM. Reason : s]

4/17/2009 6:06:25 PM

Glad everybody kissed and made up

About core exercises, yes, they are very important for beginners, but they are something that everybody should be doing. Unfortunately most people who lift regularly and have something to show for their lifting, don't do them.

Just as lifting is for superficial muscles, core strength exercises are for core muscles (deeper muscles). So, they are essential not just to prevent injury, but also to have a more balanced body.

Also, using balls, tubes, balance boards, and other such equipment also works out smaller muscles which are superficial muscles but are only used when trying to balance or stabilize the body in unusual positions. IOW, they don't get worked out much at all when just doing routine lifting.

4/17/2009 6:26:04 PM

^you don't have to use any of that crap to train core muscles. If you're deadlifting, squatting, and benching correctly, then you're training core muscles.

Quote :

"Anyway, as i was saying before - if you look at your body and the way it is constructed, you will understand how to avoid problems like you had. Every chest exercise - a push, needs a back exercise - a pull. Every bicep curl needs a correlating triceps extension. Not necessarily in the same workout, but soon enough to balance everything out. Balance, balance, balance."

Sometimes it's good to work opposing muscle groups on the same day for this reason. If you're not consistent about coming in the gym regularly, then training them together ensures that you don't end up with muscle imbalances.

4/18/2009 9:28:36 PM

There are core muscles (which could provide major power, or be used for balancing), and then there are small balancing muscles (which could be core or superficial).

With regards to balancing muscles:

Tell me, could a big macho bodybuilder do heavy bench presses on a Swiss ball? Could he do arm curls while standing on a balance board (wooden board with a half sphere under it)? You get my point. You can't train those muscles and the accompanying neuro-muscular cooordination just by lifting. You gotta train for balance separately.

4/18/2009 9:41:31 PM

oh god dammit, are you really going to push bosu ball db chest presses????

"Core Training" in the sense of the trend is a load of shit.

4/18/2009 9:58:17 PM

I don't get your point at all. In fact, I say that it's bullshit. just because bodybuilders don't train using that retarded shit doesn't mean they aren't capable of it. I've trained on stability balls before to see what it was like, and eventually I realized it was just something personal trainers started using to make their new clients feel like they were getting something special for the money they are paying. If you ever see a personal trainer working with a client that is already in shape and is looking to step it up a notch, you never see them doing this crap.

If you're heavily dependent on machines for your training, then it might make you feel like you're working out different muscles when you do use inflatable balls and balance boards. However, if you're using basic compound movements with proper form and actually pushing yourself to your limits instead of just going through the paces, then you'll train your core muscles.

One thing you need to keep in mind with stability training is the specifity of training. Improvements made in one type of stability exercise don't transfer over into other activities. Benching on a stability ball doesn't make you a better bencher; squatting while on a better balance platform won't make you a better squatter. In fact, it won't even help you have better balance while walking, running, riding a bike, or doing anything other than standing on that balance plantform while squatting.

Oh, fuck it. Let's not debate it and actually post medical research showing stability training to be complete and utter bullshit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19171958

Quote :

"CONCLUSIONS: Resistance training in an unstable environment at an intensity sufficient to elicit strength gains of the prime movers results in deleterious effects in concentric squat kinetics and squat technique. Such observations are particularly evident on very unstable platforms. "

Wow, would you look at that. stability training actually fucks up your form and results in dimished gains on the muscles you actually set out to train in the first place. Awesome!

[Edited on April 18, 2009 at 10:07 PM. Reason : blasphemy to the personal trainers at most gyms was just posted]

4/18/2009 10:04:57 PM

Quote :

"oh god dammit, are you really going to push bosu ball db chest presses????"

please tell me what's wrong with that.

if there are 2 people with identical looking bodies and identical strength and lifts, but one can do, say, 200 pound db chest presses on a Swiss ball, but the other can't, the one who can has a more developed body from a physiological point of view. whether that skill is useful or not, is another issue, and irrelevant here (because honestly, having huge muscles in the first place is not very useful at all, just something aesthetic).

4/18/2009 10:07:24 PM

the person who does those exercises on a balance ball is more likely to have bad form and could be making his chest, triceps and shoulders much stronger if he would ditch the bullshit and train on a normal bench. That's not an opinion either; that's scienctific fact.

4/18/2009 10:09:22 PM

Do I really need to, I feel my viewpoint has already been expanded, and even my reference was posted.


and the body building veiw point is shit, in my eyes ....(i'm not one)

Training bodyweight moves, squats, deads, the olympic lifts, and presses are directly functional. If you want to step up some "core" training in addition, do some gymnastics derived stuff. Hell, strongman training would be the ultimate in "functional"....

[Edited on April 18, 2009 at 10:13 PM. Reason : ]

4/18/2009 10:09:25 PM

Jesus, dude. You don't do the db press on the ball with the goal of bulking up or strengthening your primes movers, but other small muscles (and neuro-muscular links) which you don't have to use when you are lying flat.

And if you can normally do 300 pound db presses, OF COURSE you are not going to do 300 db presses on a ball, but more like start with 80 pounds and work your way to a max of 120-150, because your main goal is not the chest/triceps when on the ball. For the chest/triceps you go on a flat surface and push your 300 pounds. I am NOT asking anybody to compromise their form... that's the last thing I would ever suggest. Start at 20 lbs or 0 lbs the first few times to get the form and balance correct, and then use light weights.

And where the hell did I say that you should only be lifting on unstable surfaces? Cuz you make it sound like I did ("could be making his chest, triceps and shoulders much stronger if he would ditch the bullshit and train on a normal bench."). You would do 80-90% on flat surfaces, and just 10-20% on unstable surfaces with MUCH LIGHTER weights. And once you become a really heavy lifter, you can reduce it to 5% or so.

4/18/2009 10:18:40 PM

you want stability training, then do olympic lifts or strongman training. There seems to be something much more practical about the clean and jerk or being able to pick up a big rock off the ground and lift it up onto a platform than to be able to perform circus acts with dumbbells while trying not to fall over.

And to back up my previous statement that squats, deadlifts, and benhing are better for stability than instable platform training, I provide further documented proof of my statement.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18296961

Quote :

"In conclusion, activity of the trunk muscles during SQs and DLs is greater or equal to that which is produced during the stability ball exercises. It appears that stability ball exercises may not provide a sufficient stimulus for increasing muscular strength or hypertrophy; consequently, the role of stability ball exercises in strength and conditioning programs is questioned. SQs and DLs are recommended for increasing strength and hypertrophy of the back extensors. "

[Edited on April 18, 2009 at 10:28 PM. Reason : ^you're starting to sound really stupid in this thread.]

4/18/2009 10:26:28 PM

But how can I train for lifting a woman on my waterbed, in a gym setting?

4/18/2009 10:30:04 PM

wow aaprior hasn't postin in here?

I'm Big Business and i approved this message.

4/18/2009 10:34:29 PM

oh look, another medical journal article stating the same conclusion:

http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=2499908

Quote :

"1RM squat and deadlift resistance exercises exceeded the activation levels achieved with the same exercises performed with body weight and selected instability exercises. Individuals performing upright, resisted, dynamic exercises can achieve high trunk muscle activation and thus may not need to add instability device exercises to augment core stability training."

The article concluded that you'd get better core strength achievements by sticking to deadlifts and squats alone than by trying to incorporate any stability training into your regiment at all. Literally, the article concludes that your idea of including it for 10-20% of your work would actually hinder your strength training.

4/18/2009 10:34:31 PM

Hmm..interesting points about the fact that lifting on the stability ball makes you more inefficient at lifting. I find doing core exercises on the ball doesn't necessarily supplement my direct lifting per se, but it definitely complements my sense of balance in things that require coordination: swimming, cycling and yoga come to mind. I also find it useful in developing a sense of where my body is in space, as well as challenging some muscles I might only be stretching in some positions.

Has anyone used those incline things for sit-ups? Jesus, that's hard.

4/18/2009 11:51:06 PM

Come on guys, let's not let it degenerate into a pissing match.

I actually agree with eleusis on the balance ball stuff - when I use them, my form is awful and I can't push nearly as much. All they really do is make me feel extremely uncomfortable. I already have excellent balance, and I don't really feel the need to feel like I'm putting myself in danger (which I do with balance balls and boards) to "improve."

[Edited on April 19, 2009 at 1:36 AM. Reason : ^ incline things? describe better plx]

4/19/2009 1:36:33 AM

im sorry guys but how many of these fuckin threads do we need in the lounge?

4/19/2009 4:52:49 AM

I once saw some idiots at the gym doing power cleans while standing on a BOSU ball (dome side down)

4/19/2009 9:25:19 AM

^^ At least 22 more.


^ Bosu balls are fucking ACL/MCL tear waiting to happen. I do NOT fuck with those things.

4/19/2009 10:29:18 AM

"Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights"

4/19/2009 3:59:44 PM

I think its pretty interesting that the balance balls aren't as good as they're advertised. But most of the core strengthening exercises that I was talking about were calisthenics like mountain climbers, situp variations, pushups, etc. sometimes combined with relatively small weights.

4/19/2009 4:39:45 PM

But, for trainers and magazines w/ out of shape adn non-motivated clients/readers, they are something new and interesting that gets them doing SOMETHING. Some of these people want to simply learn a new lift for their money. Its sells.

4/19/2009 6:15:23 PM

I hate Mens and Womens Health.

Every month, it's like, "LOSE FLAT BELLY NOW"

4/19/2009 8:36:50 PM

Quote :

"im sorry guys but how many of these fuckin threads do we need in the lounge?"

nothing profound in this thread.

4/19/2009 11:33:24 PM

Quote :

"But, for trainers and magazines w/ out of shape adn non-motivated clients/readers, they are something new and interesting that gets them doing SOMETHING. Some of these people want to simply learn a new lift for their money. Its sells."

There's also the point that for the new gym member/first time lifter, doing excercises on a balance ball is a lot more accessible than doing deadlifts/squats.

I know when I first walked into a gym I was terrified of doing unassisted squats, but ask me to just balance myself on a ball and push 20 pounds in the air? Sure thing.

4/19/2009 11:57:42 PM

"Everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but nobody wants to lift no heavy ass weights"

4/20/2009 2:57:09 AM

the only thing i don't agree with 0EPII1 is early morning cardio with 0 food in your stomach/system. better to wake up, drink water have a banana or a yogurt, then do some cardio, then big(er) breakfast.

Quote :

"Even straight coffee and tea have calories."

5 calories is significantly less than 100.... (coffee v soda)

polenta is more cake like.

agree about fiber and protein. if you want to lose weight cutting down on simple carbohydrates and fat while increasing your fiber content (protein goes either way depending on your current diet) is a good start...

free weights > machines for core muscle work, machines isolate muscle groups much more efficiently though.

agree about stability training, just don't hurt yourself doing it (ie you need someone to help you that really really knows what they are doing)

basically if you want to lose weight, your intake of food needs to improve in quality reduce in quantity (calorie wise) and your activity level needs to go up (combined resistance exercise and cardio for best overall results).

it's pretty simple.

i've lost 15+ pounds very slowly (6-10 months) by basically swimming the same amount I have for the last 2+ years adding in some weight lifting and soon some running and biking (though not much), and improving the food i'm eating.

4/20/2009 12:39:07 PM

^

I have the same approach, except I'm Mountain Biking. I have lost body fat and added muscle by simply eating smarter, alternating between strength/resistance weightlifting and cardio, and being consistent! I work out 5/7 days a week for at least 30 minutes and I never miss a day. I honestly believe that being consistent holds much more importance than anything else. You can have the perfect workout routine, but if you don't show up, none of that matters. My weight hasn't fluctuated that much though, but my waist size has decreased significantly. If I keep going with my current cardio/strength program, I'll be the most fit I've ever been in my entire life, in less than 6 months from now! I'm not even counting calories that much, I just have a large balanced breakfast, a simple lunch, and a small dinner. If I get hunger pains, I simply drink water to fix it. It's really easy and I'm starting to see decent results already. Trust me, I NEVER used to work out, and if I can do this consistently, anyone can. Sorry to sound like an infomercial, but I really believe that showing up to the gym is 90% of the battle, and everything else is just a complex network of ways to get you to SWEAT IT OUT.

4/20/2009 4:13:45 PM

true.dat

willpower > all

4/20/2009 6:42:50 PM

does anyone know of a good, simple to use, free online weight lifting journal that can track and graph progress. the one i found on google sucks, it makes no sense to use

4/21/2009 3:46:00 PM

It's also called Excel.

You don't need any fancy graphs and colors...

4/21/2009 10:53:46 PM

New questions... am i better off working larger muscle groups or targeting the fatty areas of my body?for example do i get rid of the beer belly by a)leg workout that will burn more calories after the workout or b) a upper/lower/oblique workout

i have a tanita scale that measures body fat, bone mass,muscle mass ,water % etc. how accurate are body fat scales compared to pinch test? i'm at 3 weeks now and i'm holding steady at 210lbs with my body fat % decreasing . the #'s are saying i'm putting on muscle.working out 5 times a week for about an hr how much muscle should i be expecting to put on?

last is in regards to your body goin into starvation mode. say i over eat in a single sitting i.e. a 800cal meal after lunch time. am i better off stoping my caloric intake for the day or would it be beneficial to to still eat a couple tiny meals ?

5/3/2009 11:17:55 PM

You can't target fat by working out muscle groups in that area.

This is a common myth.

You have to do cardio, and the rest is up to your genetics.

5/4/2009 12:14:39 AM

Weights with large muscle groups blended with interval cardio workouts will melt the fat away.

5/4/2009 1:45:44 AM

^assuming a calorie deficit, right

5/4/2009 5:55:44 AM

I've lost 5 more pounds, woot.

5/4/2009 10:10:29 AM

I've gained 30 !!

5/4/2009 1:35:03 PM

any comments on the other 2 questions

5/4/2009 11:49:38 PM

abandoned thread?

5/8/2009 10:52:44 AM

Quote :

"last is in regards to your body goin into starvation mode. say i over eat in a single sitting i.e. a 800cal meal after lunch time. am i better off stoping my caloric intake for the day or would it be beneficial to to still eat a couple tiny meals ?"

Think of your metabolism like a fire. Putting smaller portions throughout the day will keep it going strong. A huge meal (log) will smolder it a bit and make it harder to burn. I'd stick with smaller portions.

5/8/2009 11:26:48 AM

Quote :

"i have a tanita scale that measures body fat, bone mass,muscle mass ,water % etc. how accurate are body fat scales compared to pinch test? i'm at 3 weeks now and i'm holding steady at 210lbs with my body fat % decreasing . the #'s are saying i'm putting on muscle.working out 5 times a week for about an hr how much muscle should i be expecting to put on?"

I don't know the answer to your first question, but I'd assume the pinch test is a reliable test considering it is still widely used today by Healthcare professionals. About muscle growth, this also depends on genetics, the type of workouts you are doing, and how intense your workouts are. For example, I do several repetitions of low weight free weight workouts. This helps me build lean muscle mass and increases my muscle definition and sculpts my body better than the higher weight with fewer repetitions free weight workouts. Leaner denser muscle mass has a great probability of sticking around longer, so I'd recommend focusing on that first until you have lost more body fat. Then, once you body fat has decreased significantly, take it to the next level and try to make your lean muscle mass bigger.

Quote :

"last is in regards to your body goin into starvation mode. say i over eat in a single sitting i.e. a 800cal meal after lunch time. am i better off stoping my caloric intake for the day or would it be beneficial to to still eat a couple tiny meals?"

It's better to keep your metabolism going with it's normal expectation of 5 smaller meals than it is to throw your metabolism off track by not eating. In your effort to reduce you calorie intake, you pose a great threat of changing the direction of your metabolism. In essence, you will burn through the calories faster by maintaining consistency, than changing your diet plan for 1 meal. This is why runners and swimmers can down high amounts of calories, but since their workouts are so intense and consistent, they can continue to maintain their high metabolism without gaining weight. This all goes back to consistency. Be consistent with how you eat, sleep, and exercise and you will find that you can slip up f rom time to time and your body will burn through it like fuel. If you starve yourself, your 1 meal will become an anchor in your goals for building a high metabolism.

5/8/2009 12:25:25 PM

^ I found when getting ready for my first triathlon, that sleep and water (i.e being rested and hydrated) were the most important things to help my training. If I was feeling so-so that day, I would skip the workout and at least try to be active (walking, gardening etc.)

Also, eating regularly, and especially before and after workouts, led to better-quality workouts. Obviously if you down a huge burrito earlier in the day, you probably won't be hungry if you work out at night, but I tried to eat something to keep my energy levels up.

5/8/2009 5:17:33 PM

how fast did you do the marathon?

5/8/2009 8:40:07 PM

I'm looking into starting a carb cycle cut for a month or so and just had a few questions to what I should do.

I run a 4 day workout split, so I'd like to run the carb cycle to accommodate this split.

Day 1 - Legs - High Carbs(300)
Day 2 - Chest - Med Carbs(200)
Day 3 - Back - Low Carbs(100)
Day 4 - Rest - Minimal Carbs(<20)

Now, if I'm already cutting well below my maintenance at 2400 cal/day over 6 meals, cutting out 100 carbs/day would reduce calories by 400, so 2000, 1600, ~1200 by Day 4, do I really want to dip this low or am I to fill the gap in calories with fats/proteins or a mix of both. I've done a few months of a strict CKD routine, so I'm used to the foods to use when eliminating carbs from the diet. I'm assuming I really don't want to drop below 2000 cal/day to not completely kill my metabolism, and what good is a day of rest at 1200 calories? I keep my protein intake ~180g or 1g per 1lb lean BW, if I do increase protein to fill the void the carbs left, wouldn't that just be unnecessary and converted to glucose to replace the carbs anyways? I'm still unfamiliar with how and under what conditions glucogenisis works

I don't plan on starting this til after my PCT is complete and I plan to run this cycle for ~2 weeks before I begin a new EC stack for a month and return to a more normal 20/40/40 diet plan. If I don't have this all planned out I'll likely revert to my CKD plan for 2 weeks before I begin the stack.

Thanks in advance!

[Edited on May 13, 2009 at 3:30 PM. Reason : .]

5/13/2009 3:29:55 PM

Super Pump 250
Yay or Nay?

5/13/2009 3:37:48 PM

it's been nicknamed superdump 250 by many forums, if that gives you any forewarning. The only strength gains you'll notice are in your bowel movements. It does help with endurance a little bit though. I tried some sample packs before and found it not to be as effective as NO-Xplode by BSN.

5/13/2009 4:21:54 PM

I have seen the superdump reference. Seems like it might counteract the protein supplements; maybe I'll be able to quit eating Fiber 1 bars.

One of my friends was telling me about it last weekend. He loves the stuff. His gains this year have been pretty impressive. Saw some on the clearance table at Vitamin Shoppe yesterday so I picked it up. I'm mostly cutting fat, but I figured it is worth a try if it helps my workout intensity.

Most of the Super Pump vs NO-Xplode stuff I saw when I googled it favored Super Pump pretty heavily...Here's an example: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6724451 I'm actually trying to quit relying on caffeine before workouts. From what I read most of the effects from NO-Xplode come from caffeine.

Haven't tried it yet. I thought about taking it today before a 1 mile swim, but decided I'd wait until I'm actually moving some weight to give it a try.

[Edited on May 13, 2009 at 4:47 PM. Reason : l]

5/13/2009 4:42:32 PM

^caffeine

yea, i've gone through free samples of every NO and fat incinerator supplement under the sun, can't say any NO product has given me some type of pump or gain, the amount of food in my system is my real determinate for energy output at the gym and caffeine only keeps me awake longer to end up doing more shit and burn more calories

probably why the EC stack works well, elevates your HR 10% the entire time you're on it so you burn _that_ many more calories and the caffeine just keeps you awake longer to do _that_ many more things

i've found all NO products to be moneypits though, never actually had to buy one since they give out so many free samples...my theory for the amount of free samples in the fitness world is that, the more samples of the product they give out, the less likely it is to actually work

which is why i rarely see samples of protein powders and creatine, and tons of samples of fat burners and NO products...you're sampling taste in the first 2, if you make sudden gains from protein powder and creatine it means your diet was fucked up, the other two are just bogus placebos that make you workout harder in the gym and get your "pump" on....give me a resistance band and I can get my "pump" on after 100 conc curls

5/13/2009 5:20:14 PM

Sleep and diet (for about 24 hours before working out) are the two biggest factors for me, but I don't necessarily depend on having a lot of food in the three hours or so before working out. Just a little snack seems to keep me going. I've been sleeping 9-10 hours every chance I get all year. When either is lacking I've been chugging a Red Bull before workouts for caffeine and B vitamins. I hate to use it as a crutch, but sometimes it gives me just what I need for the hour or so that I need it.

[Edited on May 13, 2009 at 9:31 PM. Reason : l]

5/13/2009 9:28:03 PM

I honestly could give a shit less about getting a pump when working out. What I do like about NO products is that if I take them mixed with about a quart of water an hour before my workouts, my body seems to bloat up and my joints feel better. For this purpose, NO products have worked better than creatine for me.

I've also received plenty of protein supplement samples in the mail before. My experience with free samples has been that the exact opposite of yours, in that free products are usually products that work well but don't have an established market like creatine monohydrate or the major whey protein companies.

5/13/2009 10:53:25 PM