5/27/2009 10:59:44 PM

I don't see the big issue with the flag for the following:

1. Many of the folks I have met, conversed with, worked with, spoken to, etc that love what we currently refer to as the confederate flag fly it because an ancestor fought in the war, they are proud to live in the south, they're proud of being a redneck, and sometimes it's just funny to see peoples' huffy reactions about the damn thing.

2. Some of these folks who flew said flag were racists, some were not, many were ignorant, but their views on race as a whole weren't any worse than what I've gathered from my experience with people living in the city or in suburbia in this and other areas who, themselves, do not suffer from any acute form of flag affinity (outside of normal American patriotism).

3. The flag we see now is mostly marketed in stores towards rural folks who are proud to be southern, a redneck, or some combination of these two things. This is more or less all the flag means to me now, and it's probably all the flag meant to all the folks who bought it before it became more and more popular to call out the naval jack as a symbol of hatred and racial strife. These folks are just being defensive about the damn thing because the modern media has grouped them all together and labeled them as ignorant racists as a whole by drawing a great deal of attention to every story which brings racial controversy and the confederate flag into the same picture. They probably won't give up defending the flag and their right to display it for a good long while, at least as long as they're all grouped together and judged offhand as racists for having a flag from a long-dead nation glued onto the back of their pickup trucks.

4. It's a flag which represents a bygone nation which is a part of this nation's history. If somebody is proud to be from a state in the confederacy which fought and lost in the civil war and they display this flag, that doesn't really give me enough to justify demanding that this flag be removed from all public display. If this flag were displayed widespread alongside symbolism typical of the KKK, then I would be better able to understand all of the outrage over the display of this flag. Given that the KKK is largely a dead organization nowadays and the rednecks to klansmen ratio in this country is probably such that well under 1% of all rednecks are klansmen or klan sympathizers, I don't believe that it's readily justifiable to state that the naval jack has a damn thing to do with slavery or racist hate crimes any more and I feel that the flag has largely become an easy target in a nation where racial issues persist in a way that is not easily identified (and as such, in order to stay relevant, organizations dedicated to the equal and fair treatment of all individuals have increasingly picked a side on an issue that is morally ambiguous at worst in regards to race relations).

5. While a large number of the people I knew/worked with/whatever that displayed this flag and were ridiculously adamant about their right to display said flag were ignorant in many ways, that doesn't tell me anything besides the fact that these folks are letting their pride get the better of them while they are effectively being successfully trolled at a massive scale by interest groups, the modern media, and people who believe what they see on TV.

If you want the cliff notes on this post: Who gives a flying fuck about what is currently, more or less, a bumper sticker symbol that represents southern pride to many a redneck alike. I'm not seeing people flying this flag running around lynching brown people and demanding that said brown people be denied basic rights (as long as said brown people are citizens, but that's another debate). I'm not going to ascribe to the notion that we have to ban this flag from all public display due to its former association with a nation that formed out of a kneejerk reaction to a progressive law which related to what is and became a racially charged issue over human rights.

If somebody wants to be ignorant and proud they can be ignorant and proud as long as they're not infringing on your rights, and in general you'd be hard pressed to prove that folks flying this flag are infringing upon your rights as a citizen and a human being.

Quote :

"both symbols deal with movements that are larger than their respective evils but are associated mainly with those evils"

Largely true, but most rednecks think they're just celebrating southern pride. Our refusal to accept that this is what the confederate flag means is due in large part to interest groups and the media which blow every issue out of proportion nowadays as a part of their own agenda (whether it's related to making money or doing what they believe will help to further the cause of human rights and individual liberty). It seems to be that most people that display the flag don't believe it stands for slavery and racial hatred, whereas most people that do not display said flag do believe it stands for slavery and racial hatred. Our inability to foster a better understanding between the "you're a fucking racist" and the "no you're a fucking asshole" groups is the only reason this flag is an issue nowadays at all.

Quote :

"my sister has a huge ass confederate flag butterfly tattooed in the middle of her back. She does not associate it with separation of blacks from whites but again...she is an idiot."

It's just ignorance. A sizable proportion of my family on one side is what most folks would consider to be a bunch of barefoot ignorant ass rednecks (sometimes even hicks). This whole issue is largely caused by ignorance and a lack of understanding on the part of both sides. I imagine if the modern media completely ignored this issue and not give great deals of attention to special interest groups the misconceptions about the flag on both sides would temper themselves a bit.

Ah, WORDS! Who wants to read my words? I know I don't.

5/27/2009 11:08:31 PM

cold mountain is on.

5/27/2009 11:11:46 PM

5/27/2009 11:33:25 PM

Quote :

"The major diff was the fact that they didn't need slavery because of their need to embrace the industrial revolution - their soil sucked. "

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

5/28/2009 12:23:14 AM

i usually go "eh eeh eh eeehh eh eh eh ehhh" as opposed to "do doo do dooodooo"

5/28/2009 12:35:50 AM

funny to see not dnl keep trying to be ultra-politically correct

5/28/2009 12:44:40 AM

I read most of the posts here and granted this is a pretty big argument, but from what I can tell nobody here is actually and truly offended by the stars and bars, right? It doesn't seem like it to me from the posts. Is ANYBODY actually offended by it? Or is all of the controversy mainly due to the fact that people like to argue?

I'm jewish and I'm not offended by a swastika...

5/28/2009 12:56:33 AM

terpball is generally pretty upset about being black, other than that I don't think anyone really cares.

5/28/2009 2:01:33 AM

Quote :

"see above, please. The flag has been associated with negative platforms and policies of distaste, but so has almost any symbol that has otherwise positive connotation."

I think that's handwaving, attempting to evade the weight of the symbol's history and significance. What does the flag mean to most black folks? What does it mean to most white folks? For me, the Confederacy comes to mind first and foremost. Some of the worst dudes in history lead that short-lived country. These guys explicitly and enthusiastically embraced racist oppression. While many factors caused the Civil War, I want to make that clear. The Confederate elites deserve every iota of the hatred they receive. When asking for support from European countries, they made a specifically white supremacist appeal. When they lost, they fled and tried to reinvent slavery under the Second Mexican Empire. For them, at least, the conflict was about race.

Quote :

"So I think on one hand, it's actually unfortunate that the South lost. Blacks may have had less freedom for a while, but everyone else would have certainly enjoyed greater freedom."

It should have been a rebellion/revolution, not a war of conquest from the North. But supporting the prolonged oppression of blacks in order to benefit whites is completely unacceptable. Consider what you're typing.

Quote :

"Slavery was merely an economic footnote of the conflict, which may have particular interest for blacks, but I think it's pretty ignorant for either a white or black person to refuse to look beyond the racial issue."

As I wrote earlier, this is simply wrong. Confederate leaders saw it as a racial issue. They held intensely white supremacist views.

5/28/2009 2:13:38 AM

Quote :

"Some of the worst dudes in history lead that short-lived country. These guys explicitly and enthusiastically embraced racist oppression."

AND SO DID THE NORTHERNERS YOU IGNORANT FUCK

Quote :

" It should have been a rebellion/revolution, not a war of conquest from the North. But supporting the prolonged oppression of blacks in order to benefit whites is completely unacceptable. Consider what you're typing."

way to go and completely not comprehend his post

5/28/2009 7:19:39 AM

Quote :

"I'm jewish and I'm not offended by a swastika..."

Then there's something wrong with you.

5/28/2009 8:28:31 AM

5/28/2009 8:33:37 AM

Regardless of what that flag stands for today, many people, including myself, have ancestors that fought and died for that flag - for something they beleived in. My family was, is and always will be poor. They did not fight for some rich white man to have slaves, they fought for the rhetoric that was being spewed at the time, the rhetoric of states' rights vs federal power over those rights.

If people want to honor that flag for their family members that gave their lives for a cause they beleived in, then I do not see a problem with it.

What I DO have a problem with is how it has become synonomous with the KKK, white supremacists, and racism as a whole. I wish those groups would go away, and if not go away at least adopt a different symbol.

5/28/2009 8:53:39 AM

Quote :

"terpball is generally pretty upset about being black, other than that I don't think anyone really cares."

I get that impression too. Also he never answered my question, just tried to change his response.

If these people are morons because they show thier pride of their ancestors/heritage by flying a confederate flag bc thier ancestors were "losers". Do you have pride in your ancestors/heritage terdball? And if so, by your own definition, would that make you a moron?

5/28/2009 9:30:20 AM

Just to clear up some terminology here:

This is the "Stars and Bars", aka the first Confederate National Flag.




This is the "battle flag":



It was rarely used, and when used it was usually square.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 9:43 AM. Reason : *]

5/28/2009 9:43:01 AM

There are a lot of unanswered questions in this thread from both sides. however, as usual, GoldenViper appears to be trolling.

Quote :

"The Confederate elites deserve every iota of the hatred they receive. When asking for support from European countries, they made a specifically white supremacist appeal."

This comment is completely false. The confederate states specific stayed away from such arguments when attempting to entice europe to assist them fight the northern states. Europe had many reasons for supporting the confederate states but would only do so if it could be done without them appearing to be supporters of slavery. As such the arguments that were made by the confederacy were mostly revenue intensive. The south produced the majority of the textiles that were used at the time and were a large source of potential commerce. Additionally many nations of Europe were not happy with american independence and its democratic social experiment, so any opportunity to declare it as a failure naturally appealed to these nations.

In the end it was hard for europe to determine who would win and who would lose and since either victor would be a large source of goods and commerce they enacted a policy of neutrality while providing materials and goods to both sides.

Quote :

"This is the "Stars and Bars", aka the first Confederate National Flag."

even though i've been referring to the flag in question as the stars in bars during this thread I meant to elaborate more on what you just said. however, i did succeed in mentioning that the original flag which was flown nationally is the flag after which our state of NC flag is modeled. I asked the question if flying a NC flag makes one a racist and/or uneducated and/or loser, but got no response. This flag too supported the things against which these people claim to have a profound distaste.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 9:49 AM. Reason : actually]

5/28/2009 9:44:33 AM

Oh and if you want to represent the south in the same exact way and not piss ignorant fucks like terpball off, just use this flag:



Most of the stupid bitches that get all indignant don't even know what it represents.

5/28/2009 9:45:59 AM

Quote :

"I get that impression too. Also he never answered my question, just tried to change his response. If these people are morons because they show thier pride of their ancestors/heritage by flying a confederate flag bc thier ancestors were "losers". Do you have pride in your ancestors/heritage terdball? And if so, by your own definition, would that make you a moron?"

How did I change my response? And you're right, I didn't answer your question because it had nothing to do with my argument.

And everyone here who is calling me "ignorant" and "angry I'm black," is just angry that they can't explain the correlation I pointed out earlier without admitting the fact that they, or parts of their family, are just ignorant.

5/28/2009 9:51:49 AM

Fuck it, let's fly Union Jack.

5/28/2009 9:53:14 AM

Quote :

"Then there's something wrong with you."

No, Stein, for insisting that someone be offended by a symbol, there's something wrong with you...
Symbols only have the power that you give them. By insisting that a swastika is necessarily an offensive symbol, you are making it offensive. You need to to talk with other jewish people like petejames, because they have the right approach. Feel free to disagree, but the opposition to swastikas and confederate flags works to keep the bigotry alive. Let it go.

^^

Quote :

"they can't explain the correlation"

The correlation is the fault of people insisting that confederate flags are necessarily racist. They are not. But if everyone is generally aware of the fact that many others insist that confederate flags are necessarily racist, that creates an atmosphere where only the unapologetic racists will tend to fly the flag. Other, non-racists might like to, but they know that when they do, many people will cry "racism!", so they censor their innocent behavior. If it weren't for these people who insist that there is an absolute and forever correlation between flying the confederate flag and being racist, that atmosphere would dissolve away and the non-racist flag flyers would tend to "come out of the closet".

Overly eager anti-racism creates and perpetuates more racism.

5/28/2009 9:58:54 AM

^3

I explained the correlation yesterday, actually.

^ he also has a very good point.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason : willy nilly]

5/28/2009 10:01:52 AM

Union Jacks for everyone!

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:03 AM. Reason : *]

5/28/2009 10:02:52 AM

Quote :

"that creates an atmosphere where only the unapologetic racists will tend to fly the flag. Other, non-racists might like to, but they know that when they do, many people will cry "racism!", so they censor their innocent behavior."

That's pretty much what I was saying earlier - I never said everyone who flies/wears the flag is racist... I said the vast majority are either racist or stupid. It's the truth, and it's getting Tiberius and eyedrb's panties in bunches. I think I struck a nerve.

Quote :

"I explained the correlation yesterday, actually."

I know you did, I don't remember, were you one of the people calling me "ignorant" and "angry I'm black?" If so, then I'd have to make an exception for you...

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:04 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2009 10:03:23 AM

You made the point you don't mind it on private property... Race tracks are private property.

5/28/2009 10:04:15 AM

Then I don't mind it on race tracks, did I ever say I mind it on race tracks?



[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:06 AM. Reason : hah, the guy who called me an ignorant fuck can't read or follow an argument. typical...]

5/28/2009 10:05:27 AM

okay if that is your main point, then i can agree with you. yes, many people who wave the flag are racists, but there are also many racists who don't wave the flag and even interact with black people everyday as if there is nothing wrong. Is one of these people any better or worse than the other?

also people who aren't racist should have the right to wave the flag wherever they choose if they want to despite that racist people may misappropriate the use of the flag.

Can you openly agree with these sentiments? If no, then why not?

No I didn't call you angry you're black or that you're ignorant.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:06 AM. Reason : .]

5/28/2009 10:05:50 AM

This thread is about it at race tracks.

5/28/2009 10:05:51 AM

this thread is about race tracks

5/28/2009 10:07:06 AM

I bet I would piss terpball off like no other face to face... He just seems like that angry black guy. Gonna be mad no matter what whitey says or does. I wonder if he'd like Addis Ababa better than DC?

5/28/2009 10:09:25 AM

Quote :

"okay if that is your main point, then i can agree with you. yes, many people who wave the flag are racists, but there are also many racists who don't wave the flag and even interact with black people everyday as if there is nothing wrong. Is one of these people any better or worse than the other? also people who aren't racist should have the right to wave the flag wherever they choose if they want to despite that racist people may misappropriate the use of the flag. Can you openly agree with these sentiments? If no, then why not?"

I agree, I never said anything to the contrary. The closes thing I said to the contrary was that in my experience, most flag waving or flag wearing people I've run into would either say or do something socially inappropriate in a matter of minutes. But I mean... that's just the truth.

Quote :

"I bet I would piss terpball off like no other face to face... "

You obviously don't know me, I'm pretty chill. I'm pretty damn sure I'd just make you feel like an idiot if you tried to argue with me about anything though.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:13 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2009 10:11:22 AM

i concur.

5/28/2009 10:12:20 AM

You know it sucks now that I think about it that Alex Ovechkin had about a two week headstart on the golf course. He's going to be way better than Eric Staal...

Oh well.

5/28/2009 10:13:05 AM

you touch a nerve with me bc you dont answer my question. Thats it. Ive pointed out that you stated that they were idiots for showing their pride in "loser" ancestors. Ive asked you if you have pride in yours. You are smart enough to see the correlation, but have too much ego to admit the error in your logic.

Im curious how you have come to the conclusion that someones family on here is ignorant. I bet you feel you dont have any prejudices or stereotype others too. I mean, you give me the impression of having a huge chip on your shoulder and an inflated view of yourself. However, I know nothing of your family and would not insult them.

But, thankfully, the world is big enough where I would never have to interact with you on a daily basis.

5/28/2009 10:17:54 AM

Quote :

"You obviously don't know me, I'm pretty chill. I'm pretty damn sure I'd just make you feel like an idiot if you tried to argue with me about anything though."

LOL. Whatever you say, Rerun.

5/28/2009 10:20:53 AM

^^ I responded by saying me waving the British flag would make more sense than a misguided southern soul waving the confederate flag. My parents are Jamaican, so that's where my heritage comes from. Am I proud that Jamaica got their independence from England? Sure... I don't really think about it on a daily, or even YEARLY basis... it isn't that big of a deal to me. i live in the present day.

However, if my family oppressed and enslaved a minority, then was taken over by a nation that stood on higher moral ground... then no, I wouldn't be waving the old flag of oppression, I'd be waving the new flag of higher moral ground.

^ exactly

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:23 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2009 10:22:43 AM

5/28/2009 10:23:01 AM

Quote :

"I never said everyone who flies/wears the flag is racist... I said the vast majority are either racist or stupid"

Quote :

"most flag waving or flag wearing people I've run into would either say or do something socially inappropriate in a matter of minutes. But I mean... that's just the truth."

And what does sharing that observation with others serve?... except to reinforce the notion that the correlation means something -- which we both agree it doesn't. By continuing the "Most confederate flag flyers are racist" speech, are you really helping things? What if people went around pointing out that "Most blacks are poor and under-educated", or "Most women are small and meek"... While those statements may be true, what does it serve to say them?

When you say "Most confederate flag flyers are racist", it at least implies (whether you meant it or not,) the conclusion, "Therefore it's not good to be a confederate flag flyer." But with other similarly prejudiced, yet generally accurate, statements like "Most blacks are poor and under-educated", or "Most women are small and meek," the implied conclusion of "Therefore it's not good to be black or a woman," is quite obviously supportive of the idea that it's not simply a correlation. It is true that most women are small and meek, but can't you see how going around saying that serves to reinforce misogyny?

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:26 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2009 10:24:26 AM

Quote :

"However, if my family oppressed and enslaved a minority, then was taken over by a nation that stood on higher moral ground... then no, I wouldn't be waving the old flag of oppression, I'd be waving the new flag of higher moral ground."

Oh revisionist history or ignorance of history. It's a wonderful thing, to have your head in the sand go "LALALALALALALA" to reality.

Higher moral ground. The North had slaves too. They had slaves AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation. Don't kid yourself, Cool Running terpball. Keeping the South in the Union and going to war over it's secession was about MONEY. Not about any moral high ground. Lincoln himself said he never intended to free any slaves, his only concern was keeping the Union together.

As an aside, very few that fought for their state held any slaves and a lot were in the abolitionist camp prior to the war. Their state came first. So you can take the statement about people's families and shove them straight up your ass.

But you can spout that shit all day long if it makes you feel better and then talk about it at your Nation of Islam circle jerk every 2nd Tuesday at 7:30.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason : *]

5/28/2009 10:27:02 AM

Quote :

"And what does sharing that observation with others serve?... except to reinforce the notion that the correlation means something -- which we both agree it doesn't. By continuing the "Most confederate flag flyers are racist" speech, are you really helping things? What if people went around pointing out that "Most blacks are poor and under-educated", or "Most women are small and meek"... While those statements may be true, what does it serve to say them? When you say "Most confederate flag flyers are racist", it at least implies (whether you meant it or not,) the conclusion, "Therefore it's not good to be a confederate flag flyer." But other similar prejudiced, yet generally accurate, statements like "Most blacks are poor and under-educated", or "Most women are small and meek" the implied conclusion of "Therefore it's not good to be black or a woman." is quite obviously supportive of the idea that it's not simply a correlation. It is true that most women are small and meek, but can't you see how going around saying that serves to reinforce misogyny?"

You can't be serious.

5/28/2009 10:27:19 AM

wow this thread kinda took off

5/28/2009 10:27:59 AM

^^
Why?... you're the one that doesn't get it.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2009 10:28:35 AM

Quote :

"Oh revisionist history or ignorance of history. It's a wonderful thing, to have your head in the sand go "LALALALALALALA" to reality. Higher moral ground. The North had slaves too. They had slaves AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation."

Who gives a fuck? America gets to change the essence of the meaning of the flag through Supreme Court cases like Brown V Board of Education. Can the confederacy do that??? No, they lost and the confederacy doesn't exist anymore. Same with Britain's flag, which is why I said it would make MORE sense to wave that one. As for all the ad hominem attacks - I see once again I touched a nerve, and apparently you can't come up with anything better than a lame-ass attempt at cyber-bullying in the middle of a normal discussion. Kudos.

Quote :

"Why?... you're the one that doesn't get it."

No, I get it, I just find it astounding you tried to draw a parallel between gender/race and people who choose to wave a flag... especially given the history of this country. Wait, astounding isn't the right word... flummoxing?





[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM. Reason : V - notice I said "lame-ass attempt at" - ]

5/28/2009 10:32:13 AM

OH TERPBALL CAN'T HANDLE SOMEONE CALLING HIM STUPID

You're cyber-bullying me!!!!!

What the fuck, are you a 13 year old girl? You're the one that brought up the higher moral ground bullshit. And while deriding someone you don't know's family.

BTW, more ignorance of history here, since you apparently don't know the Confederacy had legislation in the works to abolish slavery itself. Unfortunately they were a little preoccupied with defending their homes to get that passed.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM. Reason : *]

5/28/2009 10:42:07 AM

CRY FOR ME SOME MORE NAACP

SWEET SWEET TEARS OF PERCEIVED INJUSTICE

Quote :

"Some of the worst dudes in history lead that short-lived country."

that's more than a little bit of a stretch, conveniently ignoring most of the soviet leadership that has ever existed, south africa before 1990 (80 years), a lot of nazi leadership, a lot of japanese leadership, a lot of american leadership

i mean, it's just plain a incorrect statement.

[Edited on May 28, 2009 at 10:48 AM. Reason : j]

5/28/2009 10:44:46 AM

Quote :

"You know it sucks now that I think about it that Alex Ovechkin had about a two week headstart on the golf course. He's going to be way better than Eric Staal..."

Well that's just dumb.

5/28/2009 10:45:20 AM

Wow, DeltaBeta with the most pathetic response so far. No argument presented to counter any of my previous argument. I guess he's down for the count.

5/28/2009 10:46:13 AM

^ I love how you claim that you touched a nerve with DeltaBeta yet you're the one whining and complaining.

5/28/2009 10:47:32 AM

Where am I whining and complaining? Lemme guess, you're one of the ones who I get to pick out of the crowd right? lol

5/28/2009 10:51:17 AM

Quote :

"Just to clear up some terminology here: This is the "Stars and Bars", aka the first Confederate National Flag. This is the "battle flag":"

i bet 90%+ of folks that get all offended over this don't even know that... i also bet that at least 70%+ of all rednecks also don't know this...

5/28/2009 10:54:35 AM