Quote :

"I think the best point brought up here is that whatever mechanical device you are using to push the rod would be acting at less than the speed of light. So no matter how rigid, weightless, long, or whatever else you make the rod it will only travel as fast as it is pushed. Now if someone says, "what if the device could move faster than the speed of light.... would it work then?" Then the answer completely negates the conversation to begin with"

i think that might be even dumber than the OP

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 1:49 PM. Reason : 49]

6/1/2009 1:48:14 PM

Okay so essentially the object is not moving faster than light. The thing that is "moving" faster than light is the "message" that is being transmitted by moving the rod back and forth.

6/1/2009 1:49:07 PM

One picture clearly shows there is an elephant in the way.

6/1/2009 1:50:01 PM

Nothing is moving faster than light.

6/1/2009 1:51:30 PM

hahahaah

6/1/2009 1:53:09 PM

^^^^
Exactly

Quote :

"the rod...will only travel as fast as it is pushed"

The issue is not how fast the rod is pushed. It could be rotated instead. The issue is communication. Let say that some guy who's 5 light years away tied a flag to the end of the rod. Then someone near Earth grabbed their end of the rod and nudged or rotated it a small bit. Does the other guy instantaneously see the flag move?

(The correct answer is no.)

[Edited on June 1, 2009 at 1:58 PM. Reason : ]

6/1/2009 1:56:05 PM

ummmmm....you all do know that we are on a sphere that is spinning around at roughly 1,000 mph. Imagine a toothpick stuck into an orange spinning at 1,000 mph. now imagine that toothpick being, just for simplicity sake, 12inches, spinning around at 1,000 mph. now please tell me, how the hell would that endpoint remain in the same location long enough for some one the receive a signal. it is interesting to think though, of how many objects in space we would collide with.

6/1/2009 2:13:50 PM

Damn! We've halved Pluto!

6/1/2009 2:17:06 PM

we can just use my penis as the rod. it's 4.89 LY long.

6/1/2009 2:18:34 PM

If the original theory was anything close to correct, the length of the rod doesn't matter.


If the action is instantaneous, then it could be ten feet long , or any length at all, and the information could purportedly travel faster than light.

So, what does that mean?

6/1/2009 2:40:47 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r0r94wdB7Q

6/1/2009 2:55:32 PM

The answer is no.

neither the rod nor the "message" can move faster than light.
any movement or transferring of the message is done as the result of moving particles which is a combination of moving atoms and the reaction to electric and magetic forces. all said changes are bound within the current laws of physics and there is no combination of these things that could break the law.

so when the rod is pushed on one end what is actually happening is a wave of atom/force shift down the rod which we interpret as the entire piece moving at one, but really it is moving in a wave of particles.

So whether you tap on the rod to send a sound wave or push it the solid or "message" is moving as a wave, which cannot travel faster than light.

-lafta

6/1/2009 3:24:23 PM

-lafta (the guy who couldn't find see "per night" on the redbox machine)

6/1/2009 3:25:49 PM

I beg to differ

6/1/2009 3:33:43 PM

you were pwnt by a glare

lol

6/1/2009 3:34:58 PM

Quote :

"Rigid Bodies If you have a long rigid stick and you hit one end, wouldn't the other end have to move immediately? Would this not provide a means of FTL communication? Well, it would if there were such things as perfectly rigid bodies. In practice the effect of hitting one end of the stick propagates along it at the speed of sound in the material; this speed depends on the stick's elasticity and density. Relativity places an absolute limit on material rigidity in such a way that the speed of sound in the material will not be greater than c."

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html#4

Also thanks to that website, I now know that shadows can travel faster than light.

6/1/2009 3:46:56 PM

Quote :

"It has to be shaped like a lightning bolt because lightning is fucking FAST."

Winner.

6/1/2009 4:15:14 PM

Ah snap! My last argument got utterly and completely invalidated

Here are my favorite quotes from this thread, in order of how much I like them:

Quote :

"Okay so essentially the object is not moving faster than light. The thing that is "moving" faster than light is the "message" that is being transmitted by moving the rod back and forth."

Quote :

"This will work. Someone refute this: Some of you are [apparently] thinking about banging the rod on one end (with a rubber hammer, for eg) and waiting for the vibrations/waves to reach the other end. Of course, that would take practically forever, far far longer than 5 years (~300,000 years). If you send any EM radiation through it, that will take 5 years. (for eg fiber optics) But I don't see the picture saying that. You just move the rod back and forth. In that case, the opposite end DOES respond immediately. Imagine someone sitting 2 cm away from the other end, on some planet. You move the rod towards him (away from you), and it only has to travel 2 cm before it touches him. You can transmit a whole paragraph in morse code like that in a few minutes. A message sent by EM radiation would take 5 years."

Quote :

"Haha for those who are seriously contemplating it and not trolling: The rod is being displaced 2 cm in less than a second. I haven't had a physics class for a while, but .02 m/s is definitely less than c. Therefore, no, it's not traveling faster than light. Case solved. A problem of semantics."

Quote :

"Fun fact via back of the envelope calculations based on numbers from Wiki: If the rod were 1 mm thick and made of carbon nanotubes, it would weigh 1.93187323 × 10^14 kilograms. So you'd have to push it pretty hard. But it'd totally be sweet once you did."

Quote :

"What about the speed of light in steel?????"

Quote :

"ummmmm....you all do know that we are on a sphere that is spinning around at roughly 1,000 mph. Imagine a toothpick stuck into an orange spinning at 1,000 mph. now imagine that toothpick being, just for simplicity sake, 12inches, spinning around at 1,000 mph. now please tell me, how the hell would that endpoint remain in the same location long enough for some one the receive a signal. it is interesting to think though, of how many objects in space we would collide with."

I mean, I thought I knew physics before I read this thread, but now it's all too clear!

Take two houses with holes in the side, right? And you have one guy in each house, one moving a rod going between them and one watching it. They're communicating. Now just scale this up until it disproves relativity.

But... of course, it doesn't really disprove relativity because it's only being pushed at 2 cm/s or something like that. It only appears to violate relativity by sending a message faster than the speed of light, so the principle is conserved - no matter goes faster than the speed of light.

It's flawless, now shut up all you stupid piss ant freshmen who don't know what they're talking about, like skokiaan. God, I'm embarrassed I went to the same school as you.

6/1/2009 9:03:38 PM

It's getting harder and harder to tell who's serious and who's joking in this thread.

6/2/2009 8:07:39 AM

^
True, but then there's always your approach: Don't actually answer the question, while making jokes and posting facepalms.
That way, once everyone agrees on the answer, you can simply claim to have been on that side the whole time...

6/2/2009 8:19:16 AM

willy, i know this is really hard for you to understand, but not everyone loves to argue about shit online. hell, some of us actually *gasp* avoid threads like this because it just turns into a big argument over something pointless.

but not you, willy. oh, no sir. you will argue on the internet about anything.


i bet you're a real blast to hang out with.

[Edited on June 2, 2009 at 8:34 AM. Reason : ,]

6/2/2009 8:32:22 AM

^
I was unaware that I had argued in this thread. I've asked questions, and helped to clarify the original post, but argue? No.
But don't let that stop you from hating. (Go choke on a dick, shitbreath.)

Quote :

"i bet you're a real blast to hang out with."

BECAUSE ONLINE PERSONAS ARE THE SAME AS PERSONAS IN REAL LIFE

6/2/2009 8:50:48 AM

^Schizophrenic or just deeply into roleplay?

[Edited on June 2, 2009 at 9:14 AM. Reason : <-- 1234]

6/2/2009 9:13:57 AM

Internet Fuckwad Theory

6/2/2009 9:18:16 AM

So what is the answer to this?

6/2/2009 9:28:47 AM

your mom

6/2/2009 9:41:08 AM

she can't push it very far or long anymore

6/2/2009 10:09:37 AM

HAYOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

6/2/2009 12:02:36 PM

dont you people realize this is more like sending a radio signal across space
except instead of space you have the rod, and instead of radio signal you have a propagation of of kinetic energy

both obey the current laws of physics

6/2/2009 12:07:17 PM

Quote :

"we can just use my penis as the rod. it's 4.89 LY long."

I wish my penis was that small.

6/2/2009 12:10:12 PM

Quote :

"So what is the answer to this? "

the answer to this is that its impossible.... nothing that could fit on earth could expel enough force to push a steel rod 5 light years in length.

6/2/2009 12:33:52 PM

^wrong, thats not why its impossible

6/2/2009 12:34:46 PM

You can't go faster than the speed of light. This is why scientists will increase the speed of light in 2208.

6/2/2009 12:46:07 PM

Do a scale test.

Roll out a strand of fishing line a mile long. Push on one end until the other end moves.

6/2/2009 1:24:18 PM

Quote :

"the answer to this is that its impossible.... nothing that could fit on earth could expel enough force to push a steel rod 5 light years in length. ^wrong, thats not why its impossible"

Wrong back at ya. The theory of relativity maintains its validity in many cases by seemingly 'engineering' hurtles that can never be overcome.

If this experiment is preformed, we'll find that whatever device we manufacture to push the rod will be insufficient, regardless of advances in rod-pushing technology. It's like drilling oil wells. If we could extract and use the oil fast enough, then there is no physical law preventing us from using it all REALLY FAST for some experiment and making something go faster than the speed of light.

I mean, just think about all that energy used at once. It's a huge amount of energy! That would easily push something beyond the speed of light. But physics is one step ahead, you just can't do it due to practical concerns with physical oil infrastructure, and if you ever could do that, you could never build a rocket booster large enough to release it all quick enough before friction took over. These are the most inherent physical limits of the universe.

All of the details about the construction of the rod and pushing of the rod will prevent us, or any other civilization, no matter how advanced, from ever being able to do this. That's where physics puts the "catch" in.

6/2/2009 2:22:19 PM

you also can't do it because forces aren't transferred instantaneously.

6/2/2009 2:28:00 PM

you don't have to transfer any forces, it's a single contiguous rod.

6/2/2009 3:19:18 PM

made of what? a single giant fucking quark?

6/2/2009 3:24:09 PM

Quote :

"you also can't do it because forces aren't transferred instantaneously."

this is the point the OP is missing. Just because it seems stuff on earth travels instantaneously, is because it is at such a small scale. Comparing any physically possible speed on this earth, to light speed, is gonna be such a tiny fraction of c. When you're looking at something on the scale of 5 light years, normal earth processes are going to be travelling extremely slow.

6/2/2009 3:26:28 PM

Quote :

"you don't have to transfer any forces, it's a single contiguous rod."

that's what your mom said

6/2/2009 3:27:31 PM

Quote :

"If we could extract and use the oil fast enough, then there is no physical law preventing us from using it all REALLY FAST for some experiment and making something go faster than the speed of light. "

Yeah there is.

6/2/2009 3:29:48 PM

Quote :

"Do a scale test. Roll out a strand of fishing line a mile long. Push on one end until the other end moves."

hahahahahahaha

6/2/2009 8:45:52 PM

Quote :

"Wrong back at ya. The theory of relativity maintains its validity in many cases by seemingly 'engineering' hurtles that can never be overcome. If this experiment is preformed, we'll find that whatever device we manufacture to push the rod will be insufficient, regardless of advances in rod-pushing technology. It's like drilling oil wells. If we could extract and use the oil fast enough, then there is no physical law preventing us from using it all REALLY FAST for some experiment and making something go faster than the speed of light. I mean, just think about all that energy used at once. It's a huge amount of energy! That would easily push something beyond the speed of light. But physics is one step ahead, you just can't do it due to practical concerns with physical oil infrastructure, and if you ever could do that, you could never build a rocket booster large enough to release it all quick enough before friction took over. These are the most inherent physical limits of the universe. All of the details about the construction of the rod and pushing of the rod will prevent us, or any other civilization, no matter how advanced, from ever being able to do this. That's where physics puts the "catch" in."

6/2/2009 9:38:46 PM

^megaLOL at the red x while attempting to post a facepalm pic

it's like the morton's salt girl of facepalm

6/2/2009 9:40:02 PM

If this would work, then by the same principal we would use cans tied together with string for all long distance communication.

6/2/2009 9:47:37 PM

That's how the internets work, dawg!!

6/2/2009 9:53:32 PM

haha, hilarious - didn't read the thread, but it's funny that someone who thinks they've broken Einstein's law is actually barely transmitting information as fast as Chuck Yeager did in 1947 when he broke the sound barrier

6/2/2009 9:57:12 PM

if we pushed the rod at the speed of light for five years, would the big bang occur when the rod finally got to it's destination?

6/2/2009 11:12:52 PM

Quote :

"if we pushed the rod at the speed of light for five years, would the big bang occur when the rod finally got to it's destination?"

If a 5 light yr long rod moved at the speed of light it would be completely flat.

6/3/2009 12:01:25 AM

Quote :

"you don't have to transfer any forces, it's a single contiguous rod."

Quote :

"made of what? a single giant fucking quark?"

thank you. its not one piece, its a collection of atoms held together by atomic forces,

think of it as a rod made of marbles held together by glue, and take this rod and beat yourself in the head with it

6/3/2009 12:25:04 AM