^ Fair enough, but these folks disagree:

California Nurses Association/NNOC Issues Policy on H1N1 Flu Vaccination: Encourage, Don't Mandate

http://tinyurl.com/yb2v9se

10/14/2009 12:23:39 PM

Good for them. If they dont vaccinate, then their company can disagree with keeping them around.

I know in your retard brain you're probably trying to equate "madatory vaccines for healthcare workers" to "if you work anywhere in healthcare doing anything related you will be required by law to get a vaccine". What rational people are saying is that in any environment where there are sick people (hospitals, dr. offices, etc...) who would potentially have problems fighting the flu, its a-ok for the facility to make mandatory vaccines a job requirement.

Patient care > job security.

10/14/2009 12:30:17 PM

Quote :

"An aggressive vaccination program that first targets children and ultimately reaches 70 percent of the U.S. population would mitigate pandemic influenza H1N1 that is expected this fall, according to computer modeling and analysis of observational studies conducted by researchers at the Vaccine and Infectious Disease Institute (VIDI) at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center. ... From a cost effectiveness measure, vaccination remains the most effective, while closing schools and other social gathering places is the least cost effective. Vaccination increases population-level immunity and lowers the effective reproductive number of the virus, which results in two main effects: slowing the spread of infection and reducing the height of the epidemic peak; and reducing the overall illness attack rate, hospitalizations and mortality."

- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090910142345.htm

10/14/2009 12:33:50 PM

^^ Dude, STFU calling me a "retard," you doofus. I never indicated that private health-care employers didn't have the right to make H1N1 vaccinations mandatory. I suggested that they not do so--and the California Nurses Association agrees with me, not you.

Go argue with your cat.

^
OPINION: Don't force medical pros to get H1N1 vaccine
October 3, 2009 By GEORGE J. ANNAS

George J. Annas is a professor of health law, bioethics and human rights at Boston University School of Public Health, and author of 'The Rights of Patients.'

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/opinion-don-t-force-medical-pros-to-get-h1n1-vaccine-1.1496620

[Edited on October 14, 2009 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

10/14/2009 12:37:14 PM

hooksaw I'm just curious: do you have any identifiable talents?

10/14/2009 12:43:42 PM

^^ umm... how is that in any way a response to what I posted, retard?

^ he's a 40-something year old former prison guard who is back in college majoring in "liberal studies." What talents would you think he has?

The most productive thing i've seen him do is post pics of scantily clad women

[Edited on October 14, 2009 at 12:46 PM. Reason : ]

10/14/2009 12:43:45 PM

^^ and ^

Quote :

"Go argue with your cat."

10/14/2009 12:45:25 PM

Let's put it another way: what are you supposed to be good for?

10/14/2009 3:27:34 PM

Obama Declares Swine Flu a National Emergency
Published: October 24, 2009
Filed at 11:23 a.m. ET

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Barack Obama has declared the swine flu outbreak a national emergency. The White House on Saturday said Obama signed a proclamation that would allow medical officials to bypass certain federal requirements. Officials described the move as similar to a declaration ahead of a hurricane making landfall. Swine flu is more widespread now than it's ever been and has resulted in more than 1,000 U.S. deaths so far. Health authorities say almost 100 children have died from the flu, known as H1N1, and 46 states now have widespread flu activity. The White House said Obama signed the declaration on Friday evening."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/10/24/health/AP-US-Obama-Swine-Flu.html

10/24/2009 12:05:00 PM

OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

10/24/2009 1:34:08 PM

the H1N1 will probably kill more healthy people than swine flu will.

10/24/2009 3:41:35 PM

^^ it's just a formality, dipshits. It doesn't mean they expect us all to go running around like chickens with their head's cut off
"a proclamation that would allow medical officials to bypass certain federal requirements. Officials described the move as similar to a declaration ahead of a hurricane making landfall."


^ what?

10/24/2009 4:04:50 PM

oops, I meant to say the vaccine will kill more healthy people than the H1N1 flu will.

10/24/2009 6:02:42 PM

We have 1 thousand deaths from the swine flu. We have about 30k deaths each year from the regular flu. I suppose we need to get used to these "national emergencies" for the next 4 yrs.

10/24/2009 6:08:15 PM

How dare he lay the groundwork for Federal assistance. I demand a Katrina-like response on every national problem!

[Edited on October 24, 2009 at 6:17 PM. Reason : .]

10/24/2009 6:16:46 PM

^^Do you genuinely believe this is political?

TELL US WHAT YOU KNOW, SUPERIOR DOCTOR MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10/25/2009 1:38:53 AM

Quote :

"oops, I meant to say the vaccine will kill more healthy people than the H1N1 flu will."

well that's just not true at all......


^^^ jesus, it's just like when Governors declare "states of emergency" for obviously non-emergency events - it just a step that required to get money flowing for certain things.
And 1k deaths this year from H1N1? OK, well.... let's take a count, i don't know, after winter is over when flu actually hits hardest, and see what you think then. And seeing as how 90% of all flu cases seen so far have been H1N1 and not seasonal flu, we'll see how the death-tolls match up when they both start hitting in more force in a couple months.

10/25/2009 2:06:02 AM

I didnt say it was political, its just dumb.

My aunts basement flooded over the weekend. I hear Obama is going to declare Pennsylvania a national disaster area for flooding tommorrow.


Ok agent, I think it will be less than 30k. It still has a very low mortality rate. You said so yourself without knowing it.



[Edited on October 25, 2009 at 9:42 AM. Reason : .]

10/25/2009 9:36:51 AM

Vaccinations should be mandatory

period

10/25/2009 9:44:47 AM

and birth control.


period

10/25/2009 10:07:04 AM

H1N1 Vaccine Shortages Create Panic, Worry
Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius Urges Americans to be Patient
Oct. 26, 2009

Quote :

"Two days after the H1N1 flu was declared a national emergency, vaccine shortages around the country are creating anxiety and concern."

Quote :

"But while it gives health facilities and doctors flexibility in how they deal with swine flu patients, the declaration does nothing to speed up the production of vaccines. In fact, it may have inadvertently created some panic as facilities around the country saw long lines and not enough doses to treat everyone."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCallPlus/swine-flu-h1n1-flu-vaccine-shortage-panic/story?id=8915650

GG!

10/27/2009 2:04:08 PM

Quote :

"Mainstream Media Creates Panic, Worry"

[Edited on October 27, 2009 at 2:06 PM. Reason : z]

10/27/2009 2:06:28 PM

he inherited this flu vaccine shortage, worse since the last vaccine shortage.

10/27/2009 2:07:46 PM

Man, it’s a good thing that the flu vaccine isn’t being left in the hands of the free market – we might have the same horrible production and distribution bottlenecks that we run into with Coke, pizza, books, and pajamas – you can’t find those things anywhere.

And, hey, on the bright side, socialized medicine is coming!
http://tjic.com/

10/27/2009 3:55:26 PM

^Just curious, where did the example of "pajamas" come from? It's hardly an extremely-highly-demanded product that absolutely everyone thinks they need to get as soon as they start wanting it (unlike coke and pizza and beer... because really "books" is just a silly example -- Americans don't read )

10/27/2009 3:59:49 PM

^^^^ What, for simply reporting that Obama declared swine flu a "national emergency"? How could they not report that?

And there's this:

What a difference five years makes on flu vaccine shortage
10/26/09

Quote :

"Hardly a negative word has been uttered in the mainstream media this week about President Obama and the shortage of swine flu vaccine shots, despite assurances from his administration in September that an 'ample supply' would be available by 'mid-October.' But five years ago when it was George W. Bush in the White House and sufficient supplies of flu vaccine were not available in a timely manner, folks in the media were jumping all over the administration. Earlier today, a friend pointed me to a bunch of examples of such coverage, including these two: 'While many Americans search in vain for flu shots, members and employees of Congress are able to obtain them quickly and at no charge from the Capitol's attending physician, who has urged all 535 lawmakers to get the vaccines even if they are young and healthy… But people of all ages who are credentialed to work in the Capitol can get a shot by saying they meet the guidelines, with no further questions asked… The practice appears to directly contravene the instruction being given by the government's executive branch.' --- Charles Babington and David Brown, The Washington Post, Oct. 20, 2004. 'Yesterday, on the way from St. Petersburg to New Port Richey, the presidential entourage stopped at the Paradise Restaurant in the little town of Safety Harbor, where the president and his brother posed for pictures and were served coffee and baklava. While in the restaurant, a member of the press pool shouted out a question to the president: "Are you accountable for the flu vaccine shortage?" Bush ignored the question. And reporters were hustled out of the restaurant.' --- Dan Froomkin’s White House Briefing Column, Oct. 20, 2004. There are more such examples collected on Wikipedia here for those interested in a more detailed comparison of the flu vaccine shortage coverage under Bush compared to the present shortage."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/What-a-difference-five-years-makes-on-flu-vaccine-shortage--66176452.html

http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/2004_flu_vaccine_shortage#Political_Reprecussions

10/28/2009 3:28:56 AM

okay, hooksaw. please tell us:

- how it's obama's fault that there's been a novel genetic sequencing of dna creating a pandemic virus around the world.

- how it's obama's fault that this novel 2009 H1N1 Influenza Virus had no known previous incarnation to base a vaccine on.

- how it's obama's fault the global community of microbiologists, virologists and geneticists still don't have a magical crystal ball to see in the future.


and will you bother to note the fact that the shortage 5 years ago was due to gross failures in the logistical planning for the procurement and distribution of normal seasonal influenza virus, aggravated by incompetent political appointments by the administration to key posts?

I didn't think so.

Seriously, do you really get your scientific information from political hacks? are you ever going to finish your degree in "Liberal Studies"? Just how long has it been, now?

go on, please continue to be a shill about your liberal media bias, but please do kindly shut the fuck up about scientific issues you know nothing about because all you're doing here is propagating misinformation that actually has a potential to harm and kill people.





[Edited on October 28, 2009 at 4:21 AM. Reason : ]

10/28/2009 4:04:50 AM

Quote :

"okay, hooksaw. please tell us: - how it's obama's fault that there's been a novel genetic sequencing of dna creating a pandemic virus around the world."

Did I say it was? It's how Obama has handled--or mishandled--the issue that's in question.

Quote :

"- how it's obama's fault that this novel 2009 H1N1 Influenza Virus had no known previous incarnation to base a vaccine on."

And? The Obama administration over-promised--as usual--and simply couldn't deliver:

Quote :

"In July, Obama administration officials said companies could make 80 million to 120 million doses by mid-October. They outlined an aggressive response to the pandemic, spending more than $2 billion to buy 250 million doses of vaccine and promising enough to inoculate every American. But only about 16.5 million doses have become available so far, putting the administration in an uncomfortable political position regarding what President Obama declared last week to be a national emergency. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said in television interviews Monday that officials had been 'relying on the manufacturers to give us their numbers, and as soon as we got numbers we put them out to the public. It does appear now that those numbers were overly rosy.'"

Quote :

"But remaining unsatisfied are some other medical experts and politicians whose constituents have been unable to get the vaccine. Local governments have been forced to shift vaccination campaigns and, in many cases, limit who is allowed to get the vaccine, at least for now."

Quote :

"In a letter to Sebelius, Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) wrote Monday that she is 'troubled that HHS has assured the public since August that the government would have enough vaccine to meet demand. It seems that HHS gave its assurance of sufficient supply in August without adequate information to make such a commitment.' [AND THIS IS THE GODDAMNED POINT!] Collins, the ranking Republican on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, was criticized earlier this year for opposing the inclusion of funding for pandemics in Obama's economic stimulus bill, though she supported the funding in an appropriations measure later. Sen. Joseph Lieberman (I-Conn.), the chairman of the committee, said he shares her concerns. And he said he intends to question Sebelius about whether her department was too slow to alter its distribution plan for the vaccine."

Quote :

"David P. Fidler, a professor of health law at Indiana University, said the government's inability to accurately predict the vaccine doses threatens to undermine its credibility. 'Are we going to see this sort of nationwide impact that's also going to be seared in the nation's mind in the way Katrina was?' he said. 'One of the possibilities is that the administration and state governments will lose their credibility, because the response strategies and the promises made about the vaccine, at least in the public's eye, the promises will look again like empty promises.'"

Quote :

"But others have questioned whether officials raised unrealistic expectations by predicting more vaccine would be available than was practical. The vaccine is being produced by five companies: Sanofi Pasteur, Novartis, MedImmune, GlaxoSmithKline and CSL."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/26/AR2009102603487.html

Quote :

"- how it's obama's fault the global community of microbiologists, virologists and geneticists still don't have a magical crystal ball to see in the future."

Then they shouldn't attempt to predict the future, should they?

Quote :

"and will you bother to note the fact that the shortage 5 years ago was due to gross failures in the logistical planning for the procurement and distribution of normal seasonal influenza virus, aggravated by incompetent political appointments by the administration to key posts? I didn't think so. Seriously, do you really get your scientific information from political hacks? are you ever going to finish your degree in 'Liberal Studies'? Just how long has it been, now? go on, please continue to be a shill about your liberal media bias, but please do kindly shut the fuck up about scientific issues you know nothing about because all you're doing here is propagating misinformation that actually has a potential to harm and kill people."

Yeah, yeah--we all know about EVIL BUSH!!!1 RAWR, RAWR!!!1 He's gone bye-bye now. Obama's in charge, remember?

What are your qualifications to speak about "scientific issues," schmoe? Are you a scientist? Do you have any specific knowledge of vaccine manufacturing? NO?!

And please don't ever lecture me about knowledge of any kind, schmoe. Have you been studying your branches of government, dumbass? You're almost ready to converse on an elementary-school level--YAY!

[Edited on October 28, 2009 at 4:51 AM. Reason : Now I invite you to kindly shut. . .the fuck. . .up. Thanks! ]

10/28/2009 4:43:08 AM

Could we have this thread consolidated with the "climate change is a media fabrication" thread and the "evolution is a media fabrication" thread and any other asinine threads that question good science with anecdotes and shitty logic?

10/28/2009 10:19:24 AM

^ 1. No.

2. Science is never wrong, right?

3. This isn't about science--it's about politics.

10/28/2009 3:08:52 PM

If the price paid to the producers was higher, which would be a political decision at this point, then more would have been produced.

[Edited on October 28, 2009 at 4:15 PM. Reason : .,.]

10/28/2009 4:15:16 PM

God I wish talentless political dipshits like hooksaw would just stay away from science altogether

10/28/2009 4:19:59 PM

Quote :

"2. Science is never wrong, right?"

Correct.

10/28/2009 10:26:39 PM

^ Incorrect.

^^ And I wish know-it-alls like you, schmoe, and others would quit acting like you have any idea what you're talking about. Are you a scientist, McDouche? Do you have any specific knowledge of vaccine production? Do you have anything to offer here other than pompous shitty remarks?

If you don't like my threads, you don't have to post in them, doofus. Just stay the fuck out.

In any event, there is a faster way to make vaccine. But as I indicated:

Quote :

"This isn't about science--it's about politics."

Are Chicken Eggs the Best Way to Make the Swine Flu Vaccine?
Some Companies Insist They Could Have Made Enough Swine Flu Vaccine by Now
Oct. 28, 2009

Quote :

"Amazingly, vaccines today are made the same way they've been made for half a century --with a reliance on millions of chicken eggs to grow the virus."

Quote :

"'There are at least 10 to 20, maybe even 50, companies that are pursuing different approaches,' said Dr. Arnold Monto of the University of Michigan School of Medicine."

Quote :

"'The government dropped the ball. They should have been funding these new technologies years ago so we could be making vaccines faster today,' said Dr. Greg Poland of the Mayo Clinic."

Quote :

"Why aren't they testing it here in America? 'Because the U.S. government didn't provide the funding, and the Australians did,' said [Dan] Adams of Protein Sciences Corp]."

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/swine-flu-vaccine-made-chicken-eggs-faster/Story?id=8940397&page=1

[Edited on October 29, 2009 at 2:41 AM. Reason : .]

10/29/2009 2:39:57 AM

^^ "science" is often wrong. the difference between science and political hacks hanging out in a second-tier liberal studies program, is that science will admit it's wrong when presented with evidence that disputes the current hypothesis in play.
















[Edited on October 29, 2009 at 2:49 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on October 29, 2009 at 2:50 AM. Reason : ]

10/29/2009 2:41:52 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, yeah--we all know about EVIL BUSH!!!1 RAWR, RAWR!!!1 He's gone bye-bye now. Obama's in charge, remember?"

that's nice and all, but you're the one who came in here crying about how Bush got mistreated.

Quote :

"What are your qualifications to speak about "scientific issues," schmoe? Are you a scientist? Do you have any specific knowledge of vaccine manufacturing?"

No I'm not a scientist. I'm a full-time engineer directly supporting the production of Class III medical devices and a grad student at the University of Washington in the College of Biomedical Engineering. I spend weekdays in a manufacturing facility with FDA inspectors. I spend weekends at the University of Washington Medical Center, carving up cadavers in the gross anatomy lab.

You, on the other hand, are an ex-jailer who has apparently spent the past 6 years ostensibly working on some sort of "liberal studies" degree at a university not particularly well-known for liberal studies. Your most noteworthy accomplishment to date, apparently, is to have gotten fired from a TA position for being a total douchebag to your students.

Quote :

"And please don't ever lecture me about knowledge of any kind"

god knows why anyone would ever want to do that. it's not like you ever listen, or ever respond in a meaningful way without shrieking and spraining your eyeballs

10/29/2009 2:43:46 AM

^ 1. Bush was mistreated in comparison to Obama--it's a fact.

2. I took a class--and I know people! --joe_salk.

3. You have no knowledge of my accomplishments and they are many.

4. And this. . .

Quote :

"Your most noteworthy accomplishment to date, apparently, is to have gotten fired from a TA position for being a total douchebag to your students."

. . .is libelous. It is a lie and you know it and I suggest that you remove it.

In summary, I know that you have no meaningful retort to this post or to my previous one. So I now invite you to kindly piss off.

10/29/2009 2:54:37 AM

lol, hooksaw

10/29/2009 10:07:26 AM

Quote :

"I took a class--and I know people!"

is hooksaw "i took a grad school class about it" really criticizing someone for this? classic


haha wait, did hooksaw really get fired from a TA position?

[Edited on October 29, 2009 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

10/29/2009 11:50:26 AM

^ No. He's a liar--among other things--joe_salk is just pissed that Obama sucks.

Get back on topic or GTFO.

10/29/2009 1:54:06 PM

Quote :

"And seeing as how 90% of all flu cases seen so far have been H1N1 and not seasonal flu, we'll see how the death-tolls match up when they both start hitting in more force in a couple months."

wouldn't this kind of mean that, this year, H1N1 is the seasonal flu? Besides, why do we need to wait? We can see that, OH MY GOD, the death rates are about the same. Should we REALLY be freaking out about it, then? Probably not.

10/29/2009 8:46:59 PM

oh cool. here comes the hooksaw-burro tagteam. now the ignorance rollin' in this thread really won't be stopped.

*sigh*

i'm sure someone's tried to explain it here before, and i'm sure you clowns ignore any "science" that isn't delivered from Hannity or Limbaugh or Beck. But for the benefit of the casual observer, let's try it again:

the 2009 Novel H1N1 Influenza virus, is not a seasonal flu variant. Novel means new. means never been seen before. it's a quadruple reassortment of avian, human and swine flu viruses. very few people under 60 have any antibodies to this virus. this means that a similar virus hasn't been seen on the face of this planet in probably 50 years or so.

viruses mutate. the 2009 Novel H1N1 virus could mutate at any time into something potentially more deadly. the fact that it's an extremely virulent strain -- the fact that it is a PANDEMIC -- means that there is even more opportunity for this virus to mutate because there are so many hosts where it can mix things up.




[Edited on October 30, 2009 at 1:59 AM. Reason : ]

10/30/2009 1:41:26 AM

^ The Obama administration shouldn't have promised what they couldn't deliver and you know it. Of course there are legitimate reasons this delay happened--but there is no excuse for the false promises.


[Edited on October 30, 2009 at 2:07 AM. Reason : .]

10/30/2009 1:59:57 AM

okay. if that's your single point we're to distill out of all this, then i agree with you in principle.

it isnt the administrations fault that the vaccine manufacturers promised they could deliver 'X' units of vaccine by such-and-such a date, and then failed to deliver.

but because the administration repeated the manufacturers' promise and made it their own, now they are entangled in the failure of the manufacturers and perceived as being partially culpable. it's a noob error, but one completely unrelated to anything the administration can effect.

i work in medical device manufacturing, and i've seen manufacturers and 3rd party vendors make all sorts of promises that are business critical -- and are realistically able to be fulfilled -- but then something outside their control fucks up, and the manufacturing target slips, and there ain't a damn thing anyone can do about it. not the president, not the pope, not the janitor who mops the bathroom floor.

but if this is what you're setting your sights on to hit obama with... well, you're really stretching.

it's like you promising your wife that the car will be fixed by the weekend because the best mechanic in the city has assured you it would be fixed. then the mechanic calls on Friday afternoon and says something weird has happened and the car wont be fixed for a couple weeks. And your wife blames you, and goes and tells everyone how you're a worthless husband and you have a small dick.





[Edited on October 30, 2009 at 2:37 AM. Reason : ]

10/30/2009 2:31:17 AM

^

Quote :

"okay. if that's your single point we're to distill out of all this, then i partially agree with you."

Well, we're in partial agreement then. Good!

Quote :

"i work in medical device manufacturing, and i've seen manufacturers and 3rd party vendors make all sorts of promises that are business critical -- and are realistically able to be fulfilled -- but then something outside their control fucks up, and the manufacturing target slips, and there ain't a damn thing anyone can do about it. not the president, not the pope, not the janitor who mops the bathroom floor."

A president can sure as hell tell the citizens of his country that he's not Santa Claus. I think most people would appreciate some straightforward talk rather than empty promises--something that's becoming an Obama trademark.

I do blame Obama--the credit or the blame, rightly or wrongly, right?--for the following:

1. Making promises his administration couldn't keep.

2. Declaring a national emergency, which exacerbated an already chaotic situation.

3. Failing to fund/support funding of faster methods of vaccine manufacturing.

I blame the media for the following:

1. Reporting about Obama concerning the vaccine issue in question in a manner that many see as a double standard.

2. Engaging in some sensationalizing of the H1N1 threat.

10/30/2009 2:46:18 AM

man, you really don't have a grasp of the technical issues at all, do you? i know it's easy for you to ignore the facts and just twist it to fit your preconceived ideological agenda, but the reality doesn't match your particular worldview.

1. President Obama conveyed what was believed to be a realisitic assessment by the vaccine manufacturers. they didnt deliver. experienced people in the medical industry -- hell, in any manufacturing arena -- get burned on this sort of thing all the time.

2. it's a global pandemic. as a population-based epidemic study, this has a real possibility of becoming a very serious threat. the longer we wait to innoculate the majority of the population, the more the probability of a catastrophic outcome continues to increase.

now, is the probability of catastrophe "small?" i dont' know. how small does it have to be before it becomes "too small". how much does "too small" vary when the result could be tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths that will be weighted towards children and teenagers?

3. you can't just "decide" to develop human vaccines "faster" no matter how much money you have to throw at it. the timeframe for major process changes is YEARS. likely at least a decade.

1. there are huge differences between the current failure to quickly develop and distribute a vaccine for a NOVEL virus never seen on the planet before, and the distribution failure of the Bush admin in 2003 to adequately stock well-known and easily prepared SEASONAL vaccines.

2. all media ever does is sensationalize. it's how they pay the bills. did you just start watching TV?

And anyhow, like i said, the 2009 Novel H1N1 Influenza has the very real possibility of becoming a very serious threat. or it might just dissipate like the Y2K scare. the point is, WE DON'T KNOW. we CAN'T know. specific genetic mutations can not be predicted. only various probabilities can be discussed, and there are far too many potential outcomes to devote resources to preparing for any one of them.









[Edited on October 30, 2009 at 3:21 AM. Reason : ]

10/30/2009 3:07:08 AM

^ You crack me up. You act like you're so fucking smart, but my undergrad degree is in business administration--with a heavy focus on operations management. Let's review the sheer ignorance you've displayed here, shall we?

Quote :

"1. he conveyed what was believed to be a realisitic [sic] assessment by the vaccine manufacturers. they didnt deliver. experienced people in the industry get burned on this sort of thing all the time."

Did you just do that? Do you even read your own posts? All the more reason not promise too much.

Yeah, manufacturing delays are unheard of and can't be planned for[/sarcasm]. Have you ever studied Theory of Constraints, engineer? Well, I have, dummy.

Quote :

"2. it's a global pandemic. from population-based epidemic studies, this has the very real possibility of becoming a very serious threat. the longer we wait to innoculate [sic] the majority of the population, the probablilty [sic] of a catastrophic outcome continues to increase. is the probablility [sic] small? how small is too small of a probability when the result is tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths that will be weighted to children and teenagers?"

Show me evidence that declaring a national emergency has helped anything--other than significantly increasing demand on an already strained-to-capacity manufacturing system--because I haven't seen it.

Quote :

"3. you can't just 'decide' to develop human vaccines 'faster' no matter how much money you have to throw at it. the timeframe for process changes is YEARS. likely at least a decade."

Wrong, joe_salk. The main ways you can move the PPF (production possibility frontier) or the transformation curve outward are an increase in efficiency or a technological advancement. If you'd bothered to read my post above, you'd have seen that dozens of companies have developed methods that take the manufacturing process from four to five months down to about two--in one case, caterpillars are even being used for incubation instead of eggs.

And I'll pretty much skip the media rebuttal. We can simply agree to disagree.

Despite any differences in the circumstances surrounding production of vaccines, there is a double standard in the way Bush was treated versus the way Obama is treated--and you know it. Enough said.

[Edited on October 30, 2009 at 3:53 AM. Reason : .]

10/30/2009 3:27:57 AM

okay, douchebag, i see you 'bout to sprain those eyeballs again, so i'mma make this quick.

your "Theory of Constraints" is a marginal system developed by some guy in the 1980's (around the time you got your undergrad), that he tries to sell to companies. it's not taught in any MBA program that I'm aware of, unless to mention it in passing as being one of many perrenial "fad business philosophies" that make the rounds at the various dog-and-pony shows.

PPF? yeah I learned about that and other clever things like "Supply and Demand" and "Diminishing Returns" in sophomore macroeconomics.

the problem here, cupcake, is that the FDA doesnt give a good god damn about your PPFs or your operational constraints.

furthermore, every single one of those companies you talk about being able to develop vaccines quicker are so far from being able to produce human vaccines, they havent even gotten PMA status from the FDA. they're a bunch of venture capital-funded gene jockeys playing foosball and drinking free energy drinks, and they're a LOOOONG way from ever being production-ready.

but yes, I will agree the quote given in the article is correct:

Quote :

"The government dropped the ball. They should have been funding these new technologies years ago so we could be making vaccines faster today,"

"years ago."

that would make it Bush's fault--and you know it. Enough said.






[Edited on October 30, 2009 at 3:55 AM. Reason : ]

10/30/2009 3:46:48 AM

^

Quote :

"okay, douchebag, i see you 'bout to sprain those eyeballs again, so i'mma make this quick. your 'Theory of Constraints' is a marginal system developed by some guy in the 80's that he tries to sell to companies. it's not taught in any MBA program that I'm aware of, unless to mention it in passing as being one of many 'fad business philosophies' that make rounds at the dog-and-pony shows."

It's not a "fad" and it's quite applicable here--you should learn it. And here's one MBA program using it I found without even looking hard:

Idaho State University

http://cobhomepages.cob.isu.edu/jeffstreet/mgt329/Syllabus-MBA614-Spring2009%20%5Brev1%5D.pdf

Quote :

"PPF? yeah I learned about that and other things like Supply and Demand and Diminishing Returns in sophomore macroeconomics. the problem here, cupcake, is that the FDA doesnt give a good god damn about your PPFs or your operational constraints."

I think you've pinpointed the problem, "cupcake." Had someone considered Theory of Constraints, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now--look into it, you'll see.

Quote :

"furthermore, every single one of those companies you talk about being able to develop vaccines quicker are so far from being able to produce human vaccines, they havent even gotten PMA status from the FDA. they're a bunch of venture capital-funded gene jockeys playing foosball and drinking free energy drinks, and they're a LOOOONG way from ever being production-ready."

They just tested 100,000 doses--in Australia! We could've been a lot further along if the ball hadn't been dropped, now and back then.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/swine-flu-vaccine-made-chicken-eggs-faster/Story?id=8940397&page=1

Quote :

"but yes, I will agree the quote given in the article is correct: 'The government dropped the ball. They should have been funding these new technologies years ago so we could be making vaccines faster today,'"

Oh, goodie--I'm right again.

Quote :

"'years ago.' that would make it Bush's fault--and you know it. Enough said."

Wrong again, joe_salk.

Quote :

"'I wish this had been accelerated 10 years ago. It wasn't,' Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius told ABC News today."

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/swine-flu-vaccine-made-chicken-eggs-faster/Story?id=8940397&page=1

That would've been Clinton, I'm afraid. But Bush is not blameless in this. And Obama's the pilot now, so. . . .

10/30/2009 4:19:17 AM

^wouldn't that make it Clinton's fault, as well as Bush's fault?

Quote :

"it's like you promising your wife that the car will be fixed by the weekend because the best mechanic in the city has assured you it would be fixed. then the mechanic calls on Friday afternoon and says something weird has happened and the car wont be fixed for a couple weeks. And your wife blames you, and goes and tells everyone how you're a worthless husband and you have a small dick."

lol, when did joe_schmoe become so funny

Quote :

"specific genetic mutations can not be predicted. only various probabilities can be discussed, and there are far too many potential outcomes to devote resources to preparing for any one of them."

I'm no viral genius, and I might be looking at this the wrong way but if the virus mutates wouldn't that render the vaccine worthless? Or would it have to be a significant mutation?

10/30/2009 1:21:48 PM