^^I'm not going to dispute your point. You're probably right. I'm also not going to dig through my bookshelf and the internet to find the calculations showing that the probability of creating one survivable living organism is on the order of one in *tillions. The point is that the probability is so astronomical that it was an accident, that one cannot completely dismiss the equally high probability that it was contrived.

V- No, but it's only 15 billion


At any rate, it's fairly pointless to argue, imo. I'm no more right than you, and vice-versa. Even if one was, it doesn't really matter because of what we conclude then does it?

This thread is so off-topic.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 10:37:00 AM

Quote :

"As far as real science is concerned, the universe we know is far too complicated to happen by chance, given the amount of time it appears to have existed."

FYI, the universe is not 6000 years old.

10/1/2009 10:37:39 AM

Quote :

"I'm also not going to dig through my bookshelf and the internet to find the calculations showing that the probability of creating one survivable living organism is on the order of one in *tillions. The point is that the probability is so astronomical that it was an accident, that one cannot completely dismiss the equally high probability that it was contrived."

except that it is still not reasonable to use those statistics to conclude that god created everything

10/1/2009 10:42:43 AM

Quote :

"You are only one sentence fragment away from being just like me."

But the hypocrisy comes into play when you realize that God is the only subject that you are doing this with. Why not any other question?

Why are you not constantly afraid that you may spontaneously combust? After all, you can't prove that you won't. You've heard rumors about it. In fact, you could suspend judgment on whether or not you will spontaneously combust until you know for sure. This means there's a 50/50 chance you will! Oh god!

Quote :

"I'm not going to dispute your point. You're probably right. I'm also not going to dig through my bookshelf and the internet to find the calculations showing that the probability of creating one survivable living organism is on the order of one in *tillions. The point is that the probability is so astronomical that it was an accident, that one cannot completely dismiss the equally high probability that it was contrived."

But, you see, the fact that we exist proves that.

Do you realize how many galaxies there are in the universe? Trillions upon trillions. Do you realize how many stars there are in those galaxies? Trillions. And how many planets there are around those stars? Trillions.

Every single one of those planets is an experiment to see if life will develop. It's like the soup in the three bears house in Goldilocks, but on a much larger scale. Some of them are too close to a star. Some of them are too far. Some of them don't have the right atmopshere.

But, you know what? Some, only a few, maybe just a handful of them are juuuuuust right. Do you know how I know this?

Because I exist. I am proof that Earth was one of the planets where all of the conditions were perfect. It was the one roll of the dice, out of a trillion trillion trillion rolls across the Universe, where the conditions were perfect.

You say that it takes "the order of one in *tillions?" Well, we have that many planets in the Universe. We have MORE than that many planets. That is why life exists.

10/1/2009 10:44:06 AM

I'm not using it to conclude that god made everything. I'm using it to conclude that the *possibility* of god creating everything is not irrational.

^ I don't agree with your "because I exist" logic because to me that's a "this statement is true" type argument. It's self-supporting.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 10:47 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 10:44:42 AM

Quote :

"it is actually, unless you meant to say agnostic"

No, it isn't. I don't have to believe anything on faith to be an atheist.

Quote :

"the universe we know is far too complicated to happen by chance"

Who says it's happening "by chance"? Nothing has ever defied the laws of physics. Everything happens in accordance with natural laws. There has never been an event, that I have seen or heard about, that could not be explained through purely natural means.

Quote :

"However, there is *some* evidence to the notion that there is or was at some point something that we refer to as "god", so agnosticism is a perfectly rational belief."

Maybe if you strip down "God" to essentially mean "the unseen mechanics of the universe that we are unable to understand," then yeah. But if you want to attach any kind of intelligence to that concept, I think you're doing so without sufficient evidence.

Quote :

"but since I cannot prove it, I will suspend judgment until I can"

Again, I'll make the point that you should, therefore, suspend judgment on every single thing that you cannot prove. You should believe in every conceivable thing until it has been explicitly disproved, if what you say is true.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 10:52 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 10:46:03 AM

No one is saying it is irrational. We are saying that it is extremely unlikely.

It is the same way you would make any other scientific conclusion.

Light a match.

Now, why did this match light up?

We have a few choices:

A. Friction caused a combustion process in the match which ignited.
B. God ignited the match with his mighty God powers.

What are the odds that A is correct? 50%? Would you really argue that there is just a likelihood that it was God who ignited the match rather than the process of striking it? Would you say that B is "just as possible" as A?

10/1/2009 10:47:54 AM

yes but how could the universe spontaneously go from a ball of junk to a complex, spread out, universe with an endless number, diverse locations, landscapes and biology?

You don't think its pretty ridiculous to say that all just "happened" by itself.

10/1/2009 10:52:34 AM

That is an extremely ignorant statement.

10/1/2009 10:55:07 AM

I didn't just happen. It happened for a reason. There were mechanics in motion that eventually led to us coming into existence. The universe is extremely large, we know that for sure. It may be hard for humans to wrap their brains around the complexity and size of the universe, but God isn't a good explanation for how it all came about.

10/1/2009 10:55:53 AM

Just wait till everyone finds out that I'm not an Atheist; I'm an Antitheist.

10/1/2009 11:00:12 AM

I think you can be both.

10/1/2009 11:01:32 AM

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. Theres wide agreement among scientists on the big bang theory. a ball of matter existed and then one day it exploded and spread apart forming the universe. All the complex chemistry came from just one ball of matter and while spreading out it formed convoluted systems of gases, stars, planets, and on some planets, complex geology formed and atmospheres and life and so many things all from basically nothing.

How can you say everything started with one event the big bang that wasn't triggered by anything it just happened one day setting off a series of events to create the universe as it is today

Quote :

"There were mechanics in motion that eventually led to us coming into existence. The universe is extremely large, we know that for sure. It may be hard for humans to wrap their brains around the complexity and size of the universe, but God isn't a good explanation for how it all came about."

Its large now but don't we agree that one day, matter was all in one centralized location?
So many laws of conservation had to be broken at some point. That doesn't happen naturally. Scientifically, there had to be something bigger to set things in motion(newtons first law).

10/1/2009 11:13:35 AM

Quote :

"I'm not going to dispute your point. You're probably right. I'm also not going to dig through my bookshelf and the internet to find the calculations showing that the probability of creating one survivable living organism is on the order of one in *tillions. The point is that the probability is so astronomical that it was an accident, that one cannot completely dismiss the equally high probability that it was contrived."

What notion of "probability" are you trading on here?

Quote :

"Scientifically, there had to be something bigger to set things in motion(newtons first law)."

Don't try to make scientific arguments if you know nothing about science.

10/1/2009 11:15:44 AM

Sadly, this thread has devolved into yet another rehash of the same tired arguments.

Have fun, freshmen!

10/1/2009 11:16:02 AM

I've not brought up my atheistic leaning agnosticism to my parents. Nothing good would come from it.

My mom would cry and my dad would be really disappointed in me. Dad is a "100% of the bible is absolute truth" kinda guy. The one time I mentioned that the bible has been translated so many times and changed so many times that even if it did start out as the word of god, it isn't anymore. Nope, the King James version is the only correct one, unchanged. He believes that the world was created in 6 days. He believes there was no Big Bang. He does not believe in evolution.

I remember the time I was in late elementary school I brought up a lot of questions to him such as:

*. "If god is eternal, what if 1 day to him is a millenia to us? So the world was created in 6 of his days and took millions of years in our time." He basically told me I was blaspheming.

* "What if the moment of "Let there be light" was the Big Bang?" He said no, it was just instant light, not an explosion. I said "If you slow down the instant light of a light bulb being turned on, it looks like an explosion." Again, I was blaspheming.

* "Who are you/we to guess the method with which god created man? Couldn't he have created us in his image by starting with a monkey?" There wasn't even discussion on this one, straight to blasphemy.

That was such a terrible discussion that I just never talked about any of it again.

Yeah I got accused of blasphemy a lot.

I quit going to church by my early teens and that was a big deal too, but he couldn't make me.

I know what would happen if we had a real discussion on my inability to believe anything that there is not 1 shred of proof for it's existence.

10/1/2009 11:16:27 AM

^^You're right.

^good, back on topic

Not that it really matters one way or the other. Just let the thread get back on topic and we'll all agree to disagree.

10/1/2009 11:20:56 AM

Didn't René Descartes prove God's existence like four hundred years ago?

10/1/2009 11:31:34 AM

Luckily, my parents were nonreligious and never took me to church. I wasn't indoctrinated as a Christian in my malleable youth like everyone else.

^No.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 11:34 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 11:31:59 AM

Quote :

"Don't try to make scientific arguments if you know nothing about science."

riiight, i only have two degrees and a minor in it

10/1/2009 11:34:22 AM

The first two & half minutes of this goes into the discussion of why everyone should be agnostic towards anything that isn't disprovable, but why in practice they might call themselves a-non-disprovable-idea rather than agnostic.

For the purposes of this thread, does it matter so much... I mean would coming out as an agnostic be significantly different than an atheist?

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 11:43 AM. Reason : .]

10/1/2009 11:36:19 AM

^^ Right... A horrible alias is supposed to be believed making those kind of statements.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason : *]

10/1/2009 11:36:26 AM

For the most part, I am atheist. My mom believes in Jehovah, which is weird because she is oldschool Japanese. My dad isn't religious at all and never went to church, so it wouldn't hurt him either way. My mom hasn't been to church/kingdom hall in over a decade and prefers to study the Bible in her own way, but believes there it all started with God and since then, we have evolved. I mean, I believe in the Big Bang, however, I wonder where this "Primeval Atom" came from... If matter is neither created nor destroyed, where did it originate from? Maybe this is just way above humans to contemplate and that this whole issue becomes so complicated that we simply it with the word "God," which requires a religion to explain... :shrug:

10/1/2009 11:36:44 AM

Our intelligence--as both individuals and a culture--is an ever-increasing impediment to accepting the notion of intelligent design. The reason being we view our universe as one of infinite possibilities, when in reality, while rather large, there is a finite amount of information to be gleaned as a "man of science."

A Creator of The Universe, I think we could all agree, would have infinite power and infinite wisdom. We think we can wrap our heads around the notion of these two characteristics, but we will never be able to, no matter how intelligent we are, because we live in the finite environment we call the universe. In that sense God could not possibly be discounted.

As children we didn't sit in our rooms after getting spanked for playing with fire and bemoan the imminent emotional reverberations soon to be incurred from of a childhood of corporal punishment. We just stopped playing with fire.

Similarly, as I grow more intelligent, I must remind myself daily that in the presence of an all-powerful, all-wise Creator, my brain amounts to nothing more than that of a child's. I feel the presence of God most clearly when I, in all my glorious intelligence, struggle against Him.

I understand the detest from non-believers for the use of scripture to defend scripture, but I think on a secular level we could all agree that if a God exists the following words would be true of that God:

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts."

I am not too naive to believe that I'll get flowery feedback (especially from TWW) for what I've written, but I'd challenge that to deny the existence of God, or accept God for that matter, solely on a basis of our own cognizance, intelligence, academia etc, would be comparable to gift-wrapping eternity.

For what it is worth, I applaud anyone for taking a stance on an issue like God-whether hot or cold. There is nothing worse than being lukewarm regarding a topic with such profound implications.

10/1/2009 11:43:08 AM

Oh I derailed my own original post. Anyways, if I told my mom I was atheist, she wouldn't really care. It's my life, I can believe what I want. However, she can still reserve the right to call me "silly" should she want to It's all good.

10/1/2009 11:49:29 AM

Quote :

" ^No."

I think he wrote a skinny little book proving it.

10/1/2009 12:07:28 PM

That was a very eloquent post, WolfpackKC. The belief and emotion behind your words are why I think it is very foolish for someone to scorn religion out of hand.

10/1/2009 12:17:01 PM

Quote :

"Our intelligence--as both individuals and a culture--is an ever-increasing impediment to accepting the notion of intelligent design. The reason being we view our universe as one of infinite possibilities, when in reality, while rather large, there is a finite amount of information to be gleaned as a "man of science." A Creator of The Universe, I think we could all agree, would have infinite power and infinite wisdom. We think we can wrap our heads around the notion of these two characteristics, but we will never be able to, no matter how intelligent we are, because we live in the finite environment we call the universe. In that sense God could not possibly be discounted. As children we didn't sit in our rooms after getting spanked for playing with fire and bemoan the imminent emotional reverberations soon to be incurred from of a childhood of corporal punishment. We just stopped playing with fire. Similarly, as I grow more intelligent, I must remind myself daily that in the presence of an all-powerful, all-wise Creator, my brain amounts to nothing more than that of a child's. I feel the presence of God most clearly when I, in all my glorious intelligence, struggle against Him. I understand the detest from non-believers for the use of scripture to defend scripture, but I think on a secular level we could all agree that if a God exists the following words would be true of that God: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." I am not too naive to believe that I'll get flowery feedback (especially from TWW) for what I've written, but I'd challenge that to deny the existence of God, or accept God for that matter, solely on a basis of our own cognizance, intelligence, academia etc, would be comparable to gift-wrapping eternity. For what it is worth, I applaud anyone for taking a stance on an issue like God-whether hot or cold. There is nothing worse than being lukewarm regarding a topic with such profound implications. "

This is a well-written but ignorant argument. You take four paragraphs to basically say, "God must exist because I can't think of any other explanation for the Universe, eternity, et. al."

Quote :

"I think he wrote a skinny little book proving it."

He wrote an argument for the existence of God, yes, but I was saying that he didn't prove anything. (Let's not argue semantics)

10/1/2009 12:27:21 PM

Quote :

"How can you say everything started with one event the big bang that wasn't triggered by anything it just happened one day setting off a series of events to create the universe as it is today"

No one is saying it wasn't triggered by anything. We don't know what came before the big bang, or what initiated it. We can't just assume that the something is God.

Quote :

"Its large now but don't we agree that one day, matter was all in one centralized location? So many laws of conservation had to be broken at some point. That doesn't happen naturally. Scientifically, there had to be something bigger to set things in motion(newtons first law)."

Yeah, I think there was a probably a singularity. I don't see why that would break any laws of conservation. All we know is what we can deduce from the universe today. You're right that something had to set things into motion, but we can't be sure of what that was. I know it isn't satisfying to admit that we aren't sure about certain things, which is why religion exists - to fill the "gaps." The more we learn about the universe, the less we need God to fill the gaps.

Quote :

"Sadly, this thread has devolved into yet another rehash of the same tired arguments. Have fun, freshmen!"

It seems like you have an issue. You'll try to portray yourself as a wise old sage, and everyone that has a different perspective is someone who is young and unable to grasp your overarching wisdom. I'm not a freshman, but even if I was, it wouldn't matter. I've had these ideas since I was 5 years old. Stop trying to discredit people with nonsense, and actually address the arguments being made, if you can.

Quote :

"I know what would happen if we had a real discussion on my inability to believe anything that there is not 1 shred of proof for it's existence."

Yeah, this is ultimately what it comes down to. I hope to imbue my parents with some ideas, and help them see things like I have, but I don't know if it will have an effect. My mom is like me, in a lot of ways. She's a rational person, and needs to have things make sense. They've attached themselves to religion for emotional and social reasons, which is probably what will keep them involved with it.

Quote :

"Our intelligence--as both individuals and a culture--is an ever-increasing impediment to accepting the notion of intelligent design. "

Yep.

Quote :

"A Creator of The Universe, I think we could all agree, would have infinite power and infinite wisdom. We think we can wrap our heads around the notion of these two characteristics, but we will never be able to, no matter how intelligent we are, because we live in the finite environment we call the universe. In that sense God could not possibly be discounted."

How could anything have infinite power and infinite wisdom? Those are attributes that you would find in something with force or intelligence. Wisdom is an attribute found in animals, mainly humans. What would it mean to have "infinite wisdom" or "infinite power"? Infinity is not a quantity, it's a concept. There has never been an infinite amount of anything. The reason we can't understand something like that is because it's absurd, and just because we can't understand "it" doesn't mean "it" is God, especially as described by any holy book written by men.

Quote :

"I'd challenge that to deny the existence of God, or accept God for that matter, solely on a basis of our own cognizance, intelligence, academia etc, would be comparable to gift-wrapping eternity."

What would it mean to gift-wrap eternity? You make it seem as if denying God means you're placing artificial confines on a concept that we can't grasp. In reality, it isn't the atheist that's doing that - it's the theist. The atheist/agnostic is free to say that we don't understand the universe fully - the theist attempts to define things that are beyond our understanding.

Quote :

"For what it is worth, I applaud anyone for taking a stance on an issue like God-whether hot or cold. There is nothing worse than being lukewarm regarding a topic with such profound implications."

I agree. If the implications of not believing is being tortured for all eternity, I think this is a topic people should be getting passionate about, either way.

10/1/2009 12:28:20 PM

B-But, You can't possibly come up with an explanation for everything.......

....therefore....

.....God.

10/1/2009 12:30:07 PM

10/1/2009 12:36:12 PM

^At least it wasn't Jesus Christ... can you imagine how his dad would react?

10/1/2009 12:59:26 PM

I thought they were the same person?

10/1/2009 1:08:26 PM

Oh God - don't open up that can of worms.

10/1/2009 1:10:09 PM

Quote :

"riiight, i only have two degrees and a minor in it"

Then surely I don't have to tell you that:

(1) Newtonian mechanics is not the consensus description of the physical universe
(2) Newton's first law is vacuous

10/1/2009 1:24:37 PM

Quote :

"A Creator of The Universe, I think we could all agree, would have infinite power and infinite wisdom. We think we can wrap our heads around the notion of these two characteristics, but we will never be able to, no matter how intelligent we are, because we live in the finite environment we call the universe. In that sense God could not possibly be discounted. "

In the same sense God could never be verified.

10/1/2009 1:27:04 PM

Not to mention that Newtonian Mechanics is fundamentally unable to explain most aspects of the Universe, which is why we have these things like Quantum Mechanics and Grand Unification Theory.

10/1/2009 1:29:42 PM

Quote :

"(2) Newton's first law is vacuous"

But how does it behave in a vacuum?

10/1/2009 1:41:26 PM

There's just a large sense of irony anyway in someone using scientific laws to explain a supernatural being.

10/1/2009 1:45:50 PM

back on topic for a second:
my mom tried to take us to church for a while starting when i was like 11.... i think she stopped going before i did (which was at about 15). i have to believe she's too logical (she's a lawyer) to be religious.

and my dad is gay, so yeah i don't think he is so hip on christianity.

10/1/2009 1:46:09 PM

It is possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would not make any sense in retrospect. It would have no big picture meaning. Almost like trying to describe a musical masterpiece as simply a variation of wave pressure or sound.

10/1/2009 1:56:55 PM

Quote :

"Being agnostic is just being stupid anyway."

I call myself an agnostic because

1. I feel like it is the term that most accurately reflects my acknowledgment of my ignorance
2. It pisses off people like God

Yes, I know that I am for all intents and purposes an Atheist. No I will not join your team just because you get angry and call me ignorant.

10/1/2009 2:03:00 PM

Quote :

"It is possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would not make any sense in retrospect. It would have no big picture meaning. Almost like trying to describe a musical masterpiece as simply a variation of wave pressure or sound."

You need to read some Carl Sagan. It may help you understand the beauty and wonder of a natural Universe.

Quote :

"my ignorance"

That's fine, I'm not angry, and I'm glad you acknowledge it.

10/1/2009 2:21:34 PM

Quote :

"How could anything have infinite power and infinite wisdom? Those are attributes that you would find in something with force or intelligence. Wisdom is an attribute found in animals, mainly humans. What would it mean to have "infinite wisdom" or "infinite power"? Infinity is not a quantity, it's a concept. There has never been an infinite amount of anything. The reason we can't understand something like that is because it's absurd, and just because we can't understand "it" doesn't mean "it" is God, especially as described by any holy book written by men."

Do you see what I mean, though? No offense to you personally, but you are putting the idea of an omnipotent being into a box bounded by the summation of knowledge that you or our culture has mustered to date.

Flying alongside birds at one time was not even a thought in the human mind.
Da vinci's depiction of a helicopter was "absurd" (your word from above).
The Wright Brothers were laughed at.
Now we are taking pictures of other galaxies.

Absurdity is relative to our present knowledge. And yet our knowledge fuels our ignorance.

Which brings me to the next rebuttal:

Quote :

"This is a well-written but ignorant argument. You take four paragraphs to basically say, "God must exist because I can't think of any other explanation for the Universe, eternity, et. al.""

I think the very opposite is true of what I am saying. I buy into scientific theory. Look at our new director of the National Institute for Health. He is the epitome of the harmony between God and science, but...

In our epic quest to reverse engineer the universe, we have yet to answer with any validity how something can come from nothing. Nothing is another concept that is unable to be grasped. Imagine nothing. Good luck, you can't.

I would just say that our intelligence betrays us sometimes. The day I finally got that was the day that I realized that its not about me.

If you don't mind me getting a little poetic: my greatest act of free will each day, is willingly giving it up to the Architect of my life. I fail daily, but God's grace is a crutch that I gladly lean on.

10/1/2009 2:30:58 PM

Basically you're saying that you've got nothing but you'll just believe in it anyway because it makes you feel better.

Nice.

10/1/2009 2:34:15 PM

I couldn't possibly have nothing. Didn't you read my post?

10/1/2009 2:41:06 PM

Quote :

"and my dad is gay, so yeah i don't think he is so hip on christianity."

I have plenty of gay friends that are big Christians. So you never know.

10/1/2009 2:48:35 PM

Quote :

"In our epic quest to reverse engineer the universe, we have yet to answer with any validity how something can come from nothing. Nothing is another concept that is unable to be grasped. Imagine nothing. Good luck, you can't."

"Since we can't prove without a shadow of a doubt how the big bang occurred, we should assume the Christian God was involved."

Quote :

"I would just say that our intelligence betrays us sometimes. The day I finally got that was the day that I realized that its not about me. If you don't mind me getting a little poetic: my greatest act of free will each day, is willingly giving it up to the Architect of my life. I fail daily, but God's grace is a crutch that I gladly lean on."

"Philosophical nonsense."

There, I read it and translated it for everyone else.

10/1/2009 2:49:11 PM

Quote :

"That's fine, I'm not angry, and I'm glad you acknowledge it."

I do follow what you're saying about people who position them in the least offensive position possible though. I don't hide my atheistic tendencies, nor do I believe that there is any sort of interventionist God whose will is of any consequence in my life.

Quote :

"In our epic quest to reverse engineer the universe, we have yet to answer with any validity how something God can come from nothing. Nothing is another concept that is unable to be grasped. Imagine nothing. Good luck, you can't."

I never understood why God gets a free pass on existing forever but the Universe doesn't.

10/1/2009 2:59:53 PM

Quote :

""Since we can't prove without a shadow of a doubt how the big bang occurred, we should assume the Christian God was involved.""

For not having been "indoctrinated" at a young age, you are quick to default to the "Christian God," yet I haven't mentioned Jesus Christ once in any of my posts.

The big bang may very well have happened, but it requires the collision of two or more particles. "Where did those particles come from?" is the natural question.



For the record, I do refer to the Christian God.



[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 3:10 PM. Reason : I'll do it as a separate post]

10/1/2009 3:02:02 PM