Ok, wtf is Microsoft thinking?
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/16/windows-phone-7-series-wont-have-copy-and-paste/

No multitasking & no copy/paste after that's been the 2 of the most vocal arguments against the iPhone forever? Is this an elaborate joke of some kind where they're going to introduce the first phone and it's actually going to have multi-tasking AND copy/paste or have they decided that the iPhone has done well enough without it (until they added copy/paste) so it's not needed? It seems like they would be adding everything they could to this thing to prevent any "easy" disses about the product. Noen, I don't suppose you've heard anything about this that you can talk about have you?

3/16/2010 6:22:06 PM

You dont need multitasking because windows phone lets you run 3rd party apps as plugin to the core components. So instead of needing to run a separate app for pandora, your pandora stations are just playlists in the music player. Instead of needing a standalone aim app, you plug aim into the people hub (along with other social network stuff) and access it all there.

3/16/2010 6:51:32 PM

UI Design and Interaction Guide for Windows Phone 7 Series:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/D/8/6/D869941E-455D-4882-A6B8-0DBCAA6AF2D4/UI%20Design%20and%20Interaction%20Guide%20for%20Windows%20Phone%207%20Series.pdf

3/16/2010 6:59:21 PM

^^ I don't really care about multi-tasking but you have to admit that it's pretty ballsy for them to leave it out with so much uproar about it in the public now. Google already has 1/2 the commercial ready to take these on just by pulling part of the "iphone doesn't" series back out. No Copy/Paste is really just plain stupid though. There's no legitimate reason to leave that out so I'm hoping that it's going to change before it makes it to market.

Also, how exactly does that integration work anyway? Has anyone seen that yet? You have no access to the multi-task process as a developer so does that mean that MS has to add your app as "ok" to the core apps?

3/16/2010 7:15:42 PM

Quote :

"^^ I don't really care about multi-tasking but you have to admit that it's pretty ballsy for them to leave it out with so much uproar about it in the public now. Google already has 1/2 the commercial ready to take these on just by pulling part of the "iphone doesn't" series back out. No Copy/Paste is really just plain stupid though. There's no legitimate reason to leave that out so I'm hoping that it's going to change before it makes it to market. Also, how exactly does that integration work anyway? Has anyone seen that yet? You have no access to the multi-task process as a developer so does that mean that MS has to add your app as "ok" to the core apps?"

Am i on page 1 of the iPhone thread?

3/16/2010 7:23:52 PM

i'm not planning on upgrading unless this shit changes. wtf microsoft

[Edited on March 16, 2010 at 8:32 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2010 8:31:47 PM

Quote :

"I don't really care about multi-tasking but you have to admit that it's pretty ballsy for them to leave it out with so much uproar about it in the public now. Google already has 1/2 the commercial ready to take these on just by pulling part of the "iphone doesn't" series back out. No Copy/Paste is really just plain stupid though. There's no legitimate reason to leave that out so I'm hoping that it's going to change before it makes it to market."

Multi-tasking on a phone is nothing more than a marketing feature. Palm has it, and it obviously hasn't mean't shit. Microsoft doesn't allow multi-tasking for 3rd party applications, which is a bit different than Apple or Google's models. As a 3rd party developer, I can hook into the core services to do anything a user would want to "multi-task" with (which is generally listening to music while using another app). State persistent apps take care of the other majority case for needing multi-tasking.

Apps on WinPhone can be entirely state persisted. When you exit, the app can essentially pause itself, and when you come back, return you to exactly where you left it. Again this is something the iPhone can't easily do, and I have yet to see it done well on Android.

For copy and paste, it's a little different. I can only imagine this will come in a future update, if only for productivity applications (office, email).

3/17/2010 11:59:27 AM

i think they're going with the Windows 7 philosophy, under-promise and over-deliver...

from http://www.neowin.net/news/interview-windows-phone-7-battery-life-copypaste-multitasking-and-more

Quote :

"Copy and paste: It's not available in current builds, and developers are being told that it's not available; however, this is what Todd had to say: "I don't think we've talked about the different models are for copy paste on Windows Phone 7." Brix then goes on to say that there's something that Microsoft calls, "delighters." These are things that users want in the platform and can be announced any time between now and release. When pressed to ask if his official answer was "no comment," he responded that "we have a bunch of things we’ll be talking about later," and Microsoft doesn't want to just throw things out there that aren't ready to show to the public. The end-all is that copy/paste could very well be part of Windows Phone 7 in the future, but as of now, it's not part of the code. Later in the day, Nilay Patel of Engadget asked Brix, specifically, if copy and paste is one of the "delighters" and he told him "no." Everyone is hearing something different. Just don't expect it come launch. Third-party app multitasking: You can receive calls while you're running a third party app. You can even play a game while you're talking on the phone. The OS allows one third-party app to run at any given time. Built in apps, like web, email, and phone, all run in the background at the same time without a problem, regardless of what else else is running. When you close an application, it suspends the state and closes it to save battery. If you then re-open it, you can pick up where you left off. It's a very solid mid ground between true multitasking, and no multitasking. They call it "smart multitasking;" it seems very sensible. Notifications can still work for apps that are in a suspended state."

3/17/2010 1:26:56 PM

in case you didn't completely "get it" yet - this is how it'll work

Windows Phone 7 Series multitasking: the real deal
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/17/windows-phone-7-series-multitasking-the-real-deal/

3/18/2010 12:59:43 AM

^ I just said that two posts ago

3/18/2010 2:17:36 AM

yes, you did

but we all know the internet loves diagrams, especially with circles and arrows and shit: http://nextround.net/2010/03/16/15-venn-diagrams-to-explain-the-internets-fascination-with-venn-diagrams/

3/18/2010 2:19:02 AM

Quote :

"Apps on WinPhone can be entirely state persisted. When you exit, the app can essentially pause itself, and when you come back, return you to exactly where you left it. Again this is something the iPhone can't easily do, and I have yet to see it done well on Android."

So what happens when the app is killed and at what point is it killed? The article above says when "resources are needed" but when does that happen? 2 apps? 10 apps? Of course it's dependent on what the apps are but I just wonder the "typical" time. Anyway, just curious about it if anyone else has seen anything and what the "consequences" are. I'm assuming that if it's killed, your "saved" point is gone but it seems like that should possibly be remedied with the actual writing of the app like the iphone is capable of. Is the only difference between iphone os & win phone 7 the fact that 7 *CAN* save your progress so that the app doesn't need to (basically making it easier for devs)?

Hopefully you're right on the copy/paste thing. I understand that a lot of people never use it but enough DO that leaving it out is just plain stupid. Hopefully they get it in there for launch rather than later on down the road. That, combined with some of my dislikes about the interface at this point, completely removes it from my consideration. I was hoping that I was going to have a new option coming soon besides Android. Guess I'll just keep watching.

And half of my interface dislikes "corrected". Too bad this is impossible with a phone. WinPhone7 tablet: http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/18/windows-phone-7-tablet-concept-is-just-a-big-iphone-video/

[Edited on March 18, 2010 at 9:54 AM. Reason : tablet]

3/18/2010 9:50:40 AM

Don't get hung up on the suspended state. Windows Mobile would suspend applications when it ran out of resources (namely memory). They have fixed that by cramming so much memory into the phones that current apps don't use it all (my Touch Pro never has less than 100MB free), so on modern WM phones applications are never killed. But this is different, as applications will now be expected to resume. Some current WM applications already resume, such as coreplayer. So, even if you go to the task manager and kill coreplayer, or just go to Menu > Exit, when you run it again it goes back to the file and location where it quit/was killed. Now all applications will be expected to resume the same way whether they are killed or simply paused in the background. Quite logical.

WM went too far with background processes. Some processes were even allowed to keep running when the phone was suspended. So, treating different processes differently is a good idea. And the solution is quite easy, since all apps must go through microsoft's marketplace. Some 3rd party apps are marked to allow background operation, while most are not and treated accordingly. This would be good, as most applications both have no business running while the user is away and can be easily killed->resumed to free up resources.

But some apps are not that way. Particularly apps dealing with the network, such as the web browser and downloaders. I occasionally need a file from home, so I use an sshftp client. I am occasionally traveling and want to watch a just released tv show, so I load up Nzb Mobile and download it from the newsgroups. But over crappy hotel or fast food wifi, such downloads can take 30+ minutes, which would mean I could do nothing else with the phone, lest the download be paused.

So, again, the fix is both easy and very likely: either microsoft enables background operation, or the xda developers will do it for them. The OS clearly supports it, all that is required is setting a few bits to enable it.

As for no cut&paste, that is just sick.

3/18/2010 11:40:48 AM

I did some reading, and it turns out the Android platform works exactly the same way as Series 7 is going to work. The only difference is that Android allows 3rd party service routines to run in the background. User apps that do not have separate service routines operate just as Series 7 or the iPhone handle apps: once you jump away, the process saves state then is put to sleep, and ultimately killed if resources are needed. As such, service routines are separate from user processes. So, when you run your music player, it has two processes, one is the music handler which runs in a background service routine, and the user interface which runs as a user process. Once you leave, say to the browser, the user interface saves state then is put to sleep, and possibly killed, while the music service routine keeps playing! This obviously makes development more difficult, but it should work beautifully for allocating scarce resources if written properly. You run the risk of the service routing finishing its playlist and not exiting, forcing the user to re-run the user interface process (or a task manager) to finally wipe state and kill it.

3/19/2010 1:33:16 PM

Except it doesn't work beautifully and and it's not at all the same model as Windows Phone

3/21/2010 3:46:29 PM

So have they shown off any of the new hardware that's going to be running this OS?

3/21/2010 3:59:04 PM

^^ Like I said, the only difference I saw was that Series 7 does not currently allow background service routines. Do you know of any other differences?

3/22/2010 3:38:23 PM

^That's an entirely different application infrastructure model. The suspend/persist model is different, the service integration model is different (because there aren't separated background process threads), the 1st party/3rd party communication model is different.

Pointing to differences in the end-user experience is not a good way to differentiate platforms.

3/22/2010 4:35:30 PM

In what way is the suspend/persist model different? And we have no way of knowing if the service integration model is different because because we have yet to see Microsoft's implementation. That said, it will need to be something similar, because it is already clear that Microsoft suspends user apps, just like android does. While it is conceivable for Microsoft to go the other way by enabling non-suspendable 3rd party apps, it would still be within the power of the app developer to go the droid route.

3/23/2010 12:28:27 AM

Quote :

"And we have no way of knowing if the service integration model is different because because we have yet to see Microsoft's implementation"

Yeah we have, it's in the public SDK.

I've already described to you multiple times how the suspend/persist model is different, and you've pointed it out yourself already. Droid allows background processes and does not have isolated storage. Because of the latter it doesn't have anywhere near the same suspend/persist model, and the model that Android (and WinMo 6.5) uses SUCKS. They both basically require a task manager to keep system cleaned up, because both allow background service processes.

You need to go read about this stuff, because I'm telling you things that without the context of their environments obviously aren't sinking in.

3/23/2010 12:38:33 AM

i haven't been following the thread - but the android and winphon7 suspend/resume models are very similar - of course they aren't 100% alike but when it comes to the suspend/resume portion they are extremely close - noen have you just never done any android development?

android is setup to be able to save an application's state because it's known the android may kill it off if it feels it needs to reclaim resources and the user/developer has little control of this - likewise it can resume the state at a later period

also android does have isolated storage - it's been a huge complaint because of the lack of available space by not allowing developers to utilize the storage card - this is changing (if it hasn't already with the latest release of android) so that developers can store files on the storage card but it was on the back burner until encryption was resolved

3/23/2010 8:04:58 AM

http://www.neowin.net/news/microsofts-mystery-event-revealed

I think it's around Microsoft Project Pink, it will be lackluster, considering Windows Phone 7 is around the corner, then again these are feature phones like the sidekick, not smartphones.



BTW, they dropped the "Series" a couple days ago, so now it's just Windows Phone 7

[Edited on April 6, 2010 at 12:50 PM. Reason : .]

4/6/2010 12:48:41 PM

^^Thanks for that. Went and did more digging on Android and you and LoneSnark are absolutely right. My apologies Don't know where I had the notion, but I had a completely different (wrong) understanding of Androids isolation and persistence model.

^So disappointed this wasn't Courier

Has anyone actually tried out the WP7 developer tools yet?

4/6/2010 12:59:52 PM

I did install the W7DK and it was pretty sweet, easy to use.

4/6/2010 4:33:27 PM

this will make me switch

http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/21/dell-lightning-the-ultimate-windows-phone-7-device-leaks-out/

4/22/2010 12:41:37 AM

I got to hand it to Apple...GG on setting the bar so high that other companies start releasing quality phones instead of the garbage we've become accustomed to....

although the irony is most of these awesome phones are made by companies who weren't in the business of making mobile phones before

4/22/2010 2:05:33 AM

portrait slider phone

4/22/2010 3:51:01 PM

Damn that's nice.

Although I also don't understand the point of a portrait slider.

4/22/2010 11:54:02 PM

You can navigate the phone, open the keyboard, and type all with a single hand. Its a blackberry format with the flick of your thumb.

4/23/2010 12:01:55 AM

the point is having a nice fullsized screen rather than those retarded square screens

4/23/2010 12:02:06 AM

yea but why not have a landscape slider which is much more comfortable to type on.

4/23/2010 9:14:23 AM

They're probably trying to appeal to the Blackberry audience. Is there a landscape keyboard Blackberry?

4/23/2010 10:58:34 AM

i dont think so, but blackberries are the worst phones ever.

4/23/2010 10:59:19 AM

slider keyboards in general suck.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 11:03 AM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 11:03:38 AM

the only thing i could think of is that they might be trying to handle apps that only do portrait. I know that shit drives me nuts on the iphone.

4/23/2010 11:05:17 AM

Quote :

"slider keyboards in general suck."

In my two minutes of playing with it, I was actually kind of impressed by the Pre's.

That said, I'd still like it more if the Dell Thunder (or whatever the Android one is called) was also coming out in a WinMo7 setting

4/23/2010 11:09:11 AM

Quote :

"the only thing i could think of is that they might be trying to handle apps that only do portrait. I know that shit drives me nuts on the iphone."

two things about this confuse me...

1) you have an iPhone??
2) The iPhone only supports portrait apps?

4/23/2010 11:10:37 AM

^^ yea you gotta think that it wouldn't be hard to just create a set of hardware that runs both oses.

yea i have an iphone. There are many apps, 3rd party and native that dont support landscape. Because these apps would be worthless with a landscape slider, Dell may have decided to pick the least common denominator to prevent the problem (people trying to use a landscape slider w/ a portrait only app).


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 11:12 AM. Reason : a]

4/23/2010 11:11:01 AM

any iPhone core app that requires keyboard input supports landscape/portrait orientation.

4/23/2010 11:15:54 AM

off the top of my head settings, calendar, and phone all require input at times and none of them support landscape.

4/23/2010 11:17:26 AM

ex: if you open contacts, turn it sideways, you can add a new contact in landscape.

but if you're in phone and you add a new contact it wont do landscape.

4/23/2010 11:20:50 AM

^^calendar does when you are adding events

Phone also does when you are adding contacts.

Both instances require keyboard input.

Dialing a phone number or scrolling through contacts does not unless you type a contact to search.


^try again with phone because it does.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 11:21 AM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 11:21:11 AM

phone contacts def doesn't do it, neither does calendar. I am litterally trying to do it right now and it does not switch to landscape.

4/23/2010 11:22:44 AM

works for me. maybe its a 4.0 feature *shrug*

4/23/2010 11:23:02 AM

lol

4/23/2010 11:25:22 AM

http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_phone/b/windowsphone/archive/2010/09/01/windows-phone-7-released-to-manufacturing.aspx

went RTM today. still trying to decide if i want to try one. my contract with at&t is up in a few months - either gonna switch to a droid, or try a WP7

9/1/2010 4:56:09 PM

My contract doesn't expire until February, so I've got a while to wait on it, but my next phone will either be WP7 or webOS.

I just wish Dell was making a Thuder variant for WP7.

Neowin also has a review up today: http://www.neowin.net/news/neowin-hands-on-windows-phone-7-review

[Edited on September 1, 2010 at 5:02 PM. Reason : .]

9/1/2010 5:01:45 PM

^It's called the Dell Lightning.

9/1/2010 6:23:58 PM

I am an avid Windows phone platform lover and if Sprint does not get this OS soon enough, I may have to switch carriers. I really wish they would go ahead and announce something on this.

9/1/2010 6:37:48 PM

Well things we know:

1) The phones should be released before the holiday season, as that's when they've said they'll open the marketplace
2) Asus, HTC, LG, Samsung and Dell are the only manufacturers listed thus far.
3) All four major U.S. carriers will have the phones (AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, T-mobile)
4) Windows Phone 7 will be linked to Xbox LIVE

Possible rumors that may be true:

1) HTC HD7 may be released October 18th
2) AT&T Samsung i917 Cetus (rumored November)
3) AT&T LG C900 Optimus (slider QWERTY, FTC approved, may be released October 20th?)
3b) LG E900 Pacific (CDMA version)
4) AT&T HTC T8788 (slider speaker?, could be HD7?)
5) Looks like an mid-October launch as they've reportedly asked for submissions in October for the marketplace

I'm sure there's more, but here's the important ones.

[Edited on September 1, 2010 at 7:18 PM. Reason : .]

9/1/2010 7:10:26 PM