Quote :

"Their heart may be in the right place in their mind, and really, I'm not going to dispute it. Yeah, I brought up the money thing, but I don't think that was the motivator for him being at my door. But it's still very pushy, nosy and selfish to push your beliefs onto someone else and to ask them what their beliefs are. To be quite honest, it's really nobody's business but my own."

You completely missed the point of my entire post. It's self-LESS for them to come out and talk to you, not self-ISH. They're making it their business to talk to you because they care about you and don't want you to miss out on something big. If you don't want to hear what they have to say, then just tell them you are not interested. Knocking on your door to have a conversation about God with you is not forcing their beliefs on you.

2/3/2011 12:48:54 AM

Quote :

"Knocking on your door to have a conversation about God with you is not forcing their beliefs on you."

Yes, it is.

2/3/2011 1:01:13 AM

Reading a tdub thread about religion is painful.

2/3/2011 1:04:45 AM

^^no, it's not.

When you have a DirecTV salesman come to your door to tell you why you should buy their product, do you go off and tell people DirecTV is "forcing" their products on you? I bet you don't.

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 1:41 AM. Reason : /]

2/3/2011 1:39:24 AM

yea, but i don't think the directv guy is telling you you're going to hell if you don't buy his product.

2/3/2011 1:42:33 AM

Quote :

"It's self-LESS for them to come out and talk to you, not self-ISH. "

Join my group, and donate money every week please. You know, for your own good.

2/3/2011 1:43:22 AM

I am absolutely amazed that this thread is on its third page, and has remained fairly civil.

merbig you seem like a pretty intelligent guy. I am very curious as to why you opened the door to these guys, when (I am guessing) it was very obvious what their intentions were. Personally, when I look out my window, or through a peephole and see 2 or 3 guys dressed in suits, I can usually tell they want to discuss religion of some kind (or perhaps sell me something, but I can usually differentiate a salesman from a religious person.) And if somehow you did not know what they intended to discuss prior to opening the door, why did you not just tell them that you were not interested when they began talking (if indeed they offend you or irritate you so badly?)

I was raised a Methodist, then a Baptist, then a strict Southern Baptist. I used to have basically the same views as sawahash, but after escaping the small town in West Virginia I grew up in and meeting new people/doing some critical thinking, I quickly began to discard that philosophy. Like Joie, I went through a period where I was fairly atheist. But now.... I really don't know. I find myself squarely in the agnostic category.

I know I really want to believe there is a higher power out there, and that when I die life is not over. That's the selfish and probably scared part of me talking. The scientific side of me says it makes no sense for there to be some omnipotent being out there that cares about me, or that knows what I am thinking. But the logical side of me finds it really hard to believe that the universe was basically created out of nothing, and that humans evolved from a single-celled organism. I mean, half a millennium ago, humans thought the earth was flat and that the atom was the smallest "thing", and now we are talking about black holes, time travel, and other universes. I think, for lack of a better term, it is arrogant to think that there is absolutely zero chance that there is some kind of higher power out there acting in some manner as a creator or director. If I had to put money on it, I would probably bet against the existence of God, but I am wrong all the time. To dismiss the possibility entirely is just dumb, IMO.

2/3/2011 1:58:48 AM

^^^Actually I had a DirecTV salesman tell me I would go to hell if I didn't switch from Time Warner once. He must not have forced me though, because I still have my crappy TWC service.

2/3/2011 2:16:53 AM

^^That's pretty much me

2/3/2011 7:12:54 AM

But were they westboro babtists and did they tell you they wished your mom would die

2/3/2011 7:22:28 AM

Quote :

"I mean, half a millennium ago, humans thought the earth was flat"

actually, they didn't.

2/3/2011 7:27:23 AM

Continue...

2/3/2011 7:38:00 AM

Quote :

"Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God Himself. - Miguel de Unamuno"

and with that, i wholeheartedly agree with this bit from OSC's homecoming series (which was okay, but not spectacular...the story is very obvious):

Quote :

""I would rather live among people who behave correctly than among people with correct opinions," said Akmaro. "I've noticed no higher incidence of hypocrisy among the former than among the latter, and at least the ones who behave well don't take up so much of your time arguing.""

i was raised methodist and love my "home" church...i sometimes attend a moravian church in raleigh because i really like the people, but i'm definitely more in the agnostic category than christian...i just like the christian story

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 7:49 AM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 7:48:21 AM

quote] And to be honest, some of the teachings in the Bible aren't bad. I wished people would adhere to them better (again, some, there are some details and what not that I disagree with, like shunning homosexuality and that it's like an abomination to God, but some stuff like the 10 commandments, I agree with).[/quote]

This is why I go by Jesus's teachings. I'm a Christian, not a Levitican. I follow what Jesus taught me.

Quote :

"Just one thing I've wondered is where did this trust, or faith, in God come from? Why do you have faith that God is real? Is it because that is what you learned? Do you have evidence (personal evidence, something that some people might call a "miracle")? Or is it more of a feeling? If it's a feeling, is it like wishful thinking? Or is it just something deep down inside of you?"

Trying to wrap faith up in a neat little package to discribe it is pretty difficult. However, I will tell you that as I have lived my life I have grown stronger in my faith. I mean I have straight up had prayers answered. I know to you that probably makes you roll your eyes. I have observed and been part of things that imo can only be explained as part of God's works. It's hard to be logical and to be a Christian and some point in time. I mean religion isn't too logical.
So yea to try to discribe my faith to you...I have this faith because it's what I learned, I have evidence some might call a miracle, it's a feeling, like a deep down inside me feeling.

Quote :

" But over time, you find your own meaning of your life, and it forces you to set goals and look for the good in your own life. "

I do that all the time. Belief in God does not make you stop living your life because you think God is going to do everything for you.

Quote :

"I felt like fooling myself may have made me feel a little better, because if something didn't go my own way, I could say "God didn't want me to do this" or whatever other excuse I could pawn off on it being God. But it didn't make my life better. Having to rely on myself and find the good in my life meant I took responsibility for my actions, and if something didn't go my way, I didn't just shrug my shoulders and say "it just wasn't meant to be." I didn't look for "signs" that I should do something. I started making my own opportunities and pursing things I never would have done before."

Why would a Christian be any different? If I fail at something once, that I really want in life I don't just shrug it off. I keep working for it. I mean it's not like God wants us all to be quitters.

2/3/2011 9:20:06 AM

To tack on another thing with regards to the people going out and knocking on doors. Obviously, I can not speak for 100% of the population, but from my experience, the people who do this are doing it selflessly.

As I posted before, I was in a very strict Southern Baptist church for a couple years after I graduated high school and before I attended college. Every Wednesday night, the church members would go out "soul winning" (yes, I know, laugh it up). The preacher taught that, since the Bible said something to the effect of "Go forth and spread my word," then that is what we should do. We really had nothing to gain from this, except to please God, seeing as how according to the Baptist (and most Christian) faith, we were already going to heaven simply by trusting in Jesus.

I know I personally hated it, as did most of the church members if they really told you their true opinion. Odds are, people are violently opposed to the existence of God, are apathetic and don't care, or go to another church. Heck, some people even were physically attacked while they were out. Out of about 20 doors, you might get one person who appears legitimately happy that you are there. It sucked being out there in the balmy heat, or the rain, or the cold. It would have been much easier to just stay inside or play sick and not go, but people did go, because they were interested in spreading the message they believed - "That you need Jesus Christ as your savior or you will end up in hell."

So in all seriousness, call it annoying, call it an invasion of privacy, call it whatever..... but one thing I can promise you that it is not, is selfish. The people out there are doing it quite selflessly, whether you agree with their message or not.

PS: I also realize that you said the dude who came to your door was the assistant pastor, and he does indeed gain eventually if you end up coming to the church and joining as a tithing member. However most of the people who go out do not fall into this category.

2/3/2011 11:16:13 AM

I like it when people try to convert me, feels good man.

2/3/2011 11:24:08 AM

Quote :

"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people"

2/3/2011 11:26:06 AM

Quote :

"If you could say "im not interested" and close a door, there would be no thread"

2/3/2011 11:44:37 AM

Quote :

"You completely missed the point of my entire post. It's self-LESS for them to come out and talk to you, not self-ISH. They're making it their business to talk to you because they care about you and don't want you to miss out on something big."

How can you say it's selfless when they're only at my door because their religion told them to tell others and to "save" them? They're motivated by their religion. That's not selfless. Rescuing a baby from a bad home because you care about the baby, and not about yourself, is selfless. Rescuing a baby because your religion tells you to do it, and that if you don't do it, you're not a "good <insert religious title>," or you're going to hell and what not, is not selfless. If they're at my door to appease God, or to satisfy their own desires, they are not selfless. And it was fairly obvious that they were not there for me, as he came prepared to house to house knocking on people's doors, and what not.

Quote :

" Knocking on your door to have a conversation about God with you is not forcing their beliefs on you."

So, when he's telling me that non-believers will burn in fire and brimstone and the only way for me to join God when he comes again isn't fear mongering, or that he's not pushing his beliefs onto me? No, he didn't tie me down, and yes, I could have just slammed the door in his face, but I'm not an asshole.

Also, please note that I didn't say that he was trying to force his beliefs onto me. I said he was pushing his beliefs onto me. There's a big difference.

Quote :

"When you have a DirecTV salesman come to your door to tell you why you should buy their product, do you go off and tell people DirecTV is "forcing" their products on you? I bet you don't. "

No. I said he's trying to push his product on me, which is what I said. I never said he's trying to "force" his religion onto me. I also wouldn't classify the DirecTV salesman as being selfless either. I would say he's selfish, and he only wants me to switch so he makes money.

Quote :

"Personally, when I look out my window, or through a peephole and see 2 or 3 guys dressed in suits, I can usually tell they want to discuss religion of some kind (or perhaps sell me something, but I can usually differentiate a salesman from a religious person.) And if somehow you did not know what they intended to discuss prior to opening the door, why did you not just tell them that you were not interested when they began talking (if indeed they offend you or irritate you so badly?)"

I didn't know what they wanted when I opened the door. I also wasn't given the opportunity to tell them I'm not interested. In the future, I will tell them I'm not interested, now that I know what they look like. I know I could have just shooed them away, but I don't enjoy being rude.

I don't have time to reply anymore. I will do so after I get back from work. I need to eat something quickly.

2/3/2011 12:47:49 PM

Quote :

" I also wasn't given the opportunity to tell them I'm not interested."

bullshit just say it and close the door

Quote :

"I know I could have just shooed them away, but I don't enjoy being rude."

Quote :

" Bunch of dumb shit. Christians, leave me the fuck alone. I don't care about your dumb beliefs."

You cant just be Tdub TUFF, you gotta get IRL TUFF and let 'em know what's what

2/3/2011 12:54:29 PM

Quote :

"This is why I go by Jesus's teachings. I'm a Christian, not a Levitican. I follow what Jesus taught me."

Jesus can only teach you things through human intermediaries, so to be fully accurate here, you follow what people have taught you about Jesus.

2/3/2011 1:13:36 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBFm-LhhrqM&feature=related

2/3/2011 1:28:37 PM

Quote :

"it is arrogant to think that there is absolutely zero chance that there is some kind of higher power out there acting in some manner as a creator or director. ... To dismiss the possibility entirely is just dumb, IMO."

I am a pretty open minded person, but at some point you have to be allowed to say that something is wrong. If I tell you I have a pet dragon in my closet at home, you would dismiss it outright. People have been talking about the idea of a higher power forever but there is nothing to back up the talk. There is nothing to actually support the legends and myths and there never has been. A higher power is on the same playing field as any other superstition and does not deserve a special exemption. If some new compelling support for the existence of a higher power is proposed I'll be all over it, but until then I should be allowed to dismiss it as superstition.

Quote :

"This is why I go by Jesus's teachings. I'm a Christian, not a Levitican. I follow what Jesus taught me. "

I would feel a lot better about religion if they were all like this. The best part of the bible is where Jesus lays out a simple moral code that everyone should live by. Treat others well, don't be a selfish asshole, don't put yourself first all the time, help out others that have gotten beaten down by life. Christianity didn't stop with these teachings though. If it had I probably never would have questioned it and I'd still be religious.

Religious leaders picked it up and ran with it so that they could invade every aspect of life. Condoms are sinful? Gays are an abomination? They also created (or assimilated) a bunch of rituals that have become more important than just learning how to be a good person. It becomes so convoluted that people feel that attending church once a week makes them a good person and puts them on the fast track to heaven. Who cares what kind of person they are before and after Sunday service.

When it comes down to it, religion is not needed as the vehicle to teach morality. I don't want to be killed, you don't want to be killed. OK. Lets agree that killing each other is bad, done... you can use this method to derive all the good teachings of the bible

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 9:13 PM. Reason : ..]

2/3/2011 8:52:38 PM

it seems like existence/consciousness itself would be reason enough to think there is something bigger.
maybe not a god but something beyond our realm of intelligence.

i mean we are people. even identical twins who share 100% of their genetic code are still two distinct human beings. i think this is a pretty good indicator that genetics and biology doesnt play a 100% role in determining a person. the existence of a "soul" if you will.

this is just my thought process though.

2/3/2011 9:00:07 PM

Quote :

"the existence of a "soul" if you will"

http://multiples.about.com/od/funfacts/a/differenttwins.htm

TLDR: alternate explanation for different personalities -> twins develop differently

2/3/2011 9:19:40 PM

^yeah.
funny enough-->
and ive even argued that on here only to get flamed
(epigenetics explains that it is possible for someone to have an individual to be made violent because of violent programs on tv.... the environment actually changed the persons dna.)


it's still a theory though.
i think most of the data is post 1998 or 1999. still very new.


and by the way....it's an about.com site.
be careful of the sources you pull to prove a point.
don't believe everything you read (ahahah how fitting is that for this thread)




[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 9:50 PM. Reason : not being mean or anything. i think it might sound a little bitchy, but im not trying ]

2/3/2011 9:44:30 PM

Quote :

"I know I really want to believe there is a higher power out there, and that when I die life is not over. That's the selfish and probably scared part of me talking. The scientific side of me says it makes no sense for there to be some omnipotent being out there that cares about me, or that knows what I am thinking. But the logical side of me finds it really hard to believe that the universe was basically created out of nothing, and that humans evolved from a single-celled organism. I mean, half a millennium ago, humans thought the earth was flat and that the atom was the smallest "thing", and now we are talking about black holes, time travel, and other universes. I think, for lack of a better term, it is arrogant to think that there is absolutely zero chance that there is some kind of higher power out there acting in some manner as a creator or director. If I had to put money on it, I would probably bet against the existence of God, but I am wrong all the time. To dismiss the possibility entirely is just dumb, IMO. "

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of this, but at the same time, it in no way justifies what the Baptists/Methodists/Catholics/Pentecostals/Taliban/whatever want people to believe.

The idea that a god/entity of higher power exists doesn't validate Religious peoples' beliefs. If all the Bible said was to be a good person, that would be one thing. But the Bible also tells people that most fields of modern science are wrong, you should only listen to the church instead of thinking for yourself, and that a particular religion's idea of what "God" is is more important than your friends and family and even spouse. If you choose to ignore those parts of the Bible, that's all well and good... but it doesn't make the depiction of those ideas any less twisted, and is really the main issue most non-religious people take with religion.

It really doesn't matter if you "follow Jesus" or some other trivial statement like that, the problem is when you wear your Club Jesus jacket around furthering the anti-intellectual ideals promoted by the Church. It only takes a cursory knowledge of history to realize that the Church's pedigree is politics and power, and not much is different today.

And it's great that people find strength in the stories of Jesus, but it's foolish to thing that it is uniquely a guiding source that is broadly relevant for everyone. There's tons of places people can look to find good solid philosophy on living without all the strings attached.


^ the vast majority of recent research is pointing towards environment having the biggest effect. Even to the point of changing gene expression.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/12/human-differences-environment-vs-the-genes.ars

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 9:50 PM. Reason : ]

2/3/2011 9:46:50 PM

^yeah i know. but i said something about that on here a loooong time ago and you would have though i just said i was thinking about growing a penis from my belly button.


iu think its very plausible (and can you imagine the ramifications of such?!?!?!)

but honestly i don't think it's enough to explain some of the marked differences you see in identical twins.

but then again we share a amazing similar DNA to a chimp. and look how different they are.
maybe a few base pairs off(assuming they are encoding differently) could make all the difference.


theres just so much we dont know, and so much that we still cant explain.


[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 9:55 PM. Reason : hgfdgf]

2/3/2011 9:52:56 PM

Identical twins are merely genetically identical, they have the same blueprints.

There is still, even as a fetus, going to be differences in their chemical environments that the blueprints are going to be built slightly differently (congenital conditions).

It would only take a few more cells here, and a few less cells there to cause very different personalities on the biological level to be able to develop.

2/3/2011 9:56:32 PM

i don't think it's quite that simple
and its not cells that reproduce, its DNA mutations.
(i could be wrong though....sam could tell you)
i worked in genomics for about 3 years so i remember a lot of the stuff we did ( but it was on a cellular level though :shrug: )


and actually (lemme toot my own horn here) i wrote a paper in one of my classes about genomic evolution within a lifetime and i my professor used it in his following classes!

it was an undergrad minor paper though...nothing to get too excited about ahaha








[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM. Reason : i m gonna back out for good. i have a HUGE test in the morning. <3 night yall]

2/3/2011 9:58:55 PM

I don't see any reason why environment isn't reason enough for twins to be different, but I appreciate that someone else might feel otherwise.

But of the literally thousands of things that could potentially cause twins to have different personalities, a dualistic soul is so far down the list, it's silly to bring it up.

2/3/2011 10:08:26 PM

i figured about.com was good enough for chitchat

Quote :

"the environment actually changed the persons dna"

I'd never heard of epigenetics before. I thought it was saying that the dna doesn't actually change, just that environmental factors will determine somewhat how genes are expressed.

2/3/2011 10:37:14 PM

I think the girl is just saying the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, eventually we should be able to figure out every neuron in the brain but we may never understand consciousness

2/3/2011 10:37:30 PM

Why is it not scientifically smart to believe in God and be a Christian? There are plenty of hard facts and scientific evidence that prove Christianity.

2/3/2011 10:40:11 PM

The chemical thing doesn't make any sense because if a woman is exposed to a teratogen, it's not going to isolate itself to a specific area in the uterine cavity. Not to mention, it's not uncommon for monozygotic twins to share a common placenta. The only differences you would ever have between twins would be the size of them, caused by where the twins are placed. Aka, you can sometimes have one twin receiving a larger amount of blood than the other (which is bad).

But like Joie said, the only way identical twins would have any different cells with different genetics would be if there was a somatic mutation AFTER they were born, and then that cell proliferated (which usually creates situations like cancer, since those tumors have very unstable DNA patterns).

Also, epigenetics isn't necessarily saying anyyy environment changes your DNA (although this can happen). Epigenetics is typically used to describe situations like genetic imprinting caused by DNA methylation and cancerous situations


And honestly, I'm not trying to start shit, but..

Quote :

"It would only take a few more cells here, and a few less cells there to cause very different personalities on the biological level to be able to develop."

This doesn't just happen... During the "building" of a fetus (or patterning, whatever you want to describe it as), there are specific genetic markers and gradients. If they have the same genetic blueprint, these genes will be expressed the exact same way unless there is some teratogenic effect from something the mother was exposed to (like retinoic acid). And even in that case, it would be distributed to both twins

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 10:44 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:02 PM. Reason : rephrase]

2/3/2011 10:40:17 PM

had to look this one up

Quote :

"te·rat·o·gen a drug or other substance capable of interfering with the development of a fetus, causing birth defects. "

Quote :

"Why is it not scientifically smart to believe in God and be a Christian? "

I don't think religious people are stupid. I was religious at one point. If you are raised in a religious family, that is how the world is. For most of my friends it seems like it's just a background thing in their life that is a given. Years of religious education is what made me less religious. They just kept telling me the same stuff over and over and I never got a "and this is why" like I did in my other classes.

Quote :

"There are plenty of hard facts and scientific evidence that prove Christianity."

like what?



[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:04 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 10:48:24 PM

oh sorry

teratogens can range from street drugs to alcohol to Accutane... bad stuff

2/3/2011 10:49:31 PM

^^ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/epigenetics.html

a good primer

2/3/2011 10:51:40 PM

Quote :

"Why is it not scientifically smart to believe in God and be a Christian? There are plenty of hard facts and scientific evidence that prove Christianity. "

LOOOOOL

Quote :

"I think the girl is just saying the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, eventually we should be able to figure out every neuron in the brain but we may never understand consciousness "

To be honest, i've never really understood these kind of arguments. I had an email discussion with the philosophy professor about this when i took it. It seems very intuitive to me that lots of simple things arranged a certain way result in complex behaviors. Yes, the whole is greater than the mere sum of the parts, but the whole is never greater than the configuration of its parts. It's the configuration that results in the greater whole, not merely the count of the parts.

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 10:56 PM. Reason : ]

2/3/2011 10:52:35 PM

Even with that link you posted, that's not describing a congenital environment.. Epigenetic changes take time and twins aren't going to be in the same areas 100% of the time while growing up (unless they're conjoined I guess)

PS - I work in a very scientific field (obviously) and I still believe in God. Like Joie said somewhere in a thread, working in this field has actually strengthened my faith.

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 10:58 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 10:57:31 PM

I like to lean towards believing in the Gods of Olympus more so than all of this single god silliness.

Hercules > Jesus

2/3/2011 11:03:07 PM

I'll just never understand why people (both religious and nonreligious) look down on you for having opposite beliefs. I think it's really rude to put someone down for being a Christian, Jewish, etc etc, and just as rude to turn your nose up at someone for not believing in a higher power...

2/3/2011 11:06:23 PM

I can relate it to sports teams.... there is really no difference in a fan, just maybe where/what they were raised on.





FUCK THE COWBOYS!!!

2/3/2011 11:10:32 PM

Quote :

"LOOOOOL"

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:18 PM. Reason : ;]

2/3/2011 11:18:08 PM

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

Quote :

" The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe. Jeremiah 31:35,36 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): “If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever.” "

damn i'm sold


[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:23 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 11:20:04 PM

well the problem with religions is that most of them want you to join

and if you don't join there's usually some kind of punishment due to you at death (unfortunately some people get impatient and want to deal it out to you on Earth too)

I do not believe in a god of any kind but I do like religions - they are interesting and I think they can do a lot of good

however I prefer religions that aren't evangelical

like Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Quakerism, Judaism, etc

2/3/2011 11:23:25 PM

^^^ That website says that dinosaurs were mentioned in the Bible, with a description of their traits. However, the Bible uses a different word.

What's funny, is that humans and dinosaurs never lived at the same time...

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:27 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 11:27:00 PM

here's a site proving how scientifically accurate the Quran is:

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm


will you start following Islam now? it also has equally vague statements which can be construed to mean anything you'd like

2/3/2011 11:31:02 PM

Some Jehovas Witness ladies came to my parents house over break and gave me some pamphlets with similar info in them. One of the articles was about where the garden of Eden was probably located on earth. A literal bible interpretation will never be fully reconciled with reality using science.

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:49 PM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 11:44:57 PM

I heard that you have to grow a penis from your belly button to get in to heaven.

2/4/2011 1:13:12 AM