Collective bargaining isn't just for pay

Cutting pay/reducing benefits is one thing, but why cut away the ability negotiate terms in the same bill?

2/19/2011 11:12:46 AM

I don't understand; private enterprises make cuts to benefits and salary in order to stay solvent and/or stave off downsizing, and it's expected. We do it in the public sector, and suddenly we go batshit insane. Guys, that's life. It sucks. Teachers aren't the only ones who work long hours daily, take work home (who doesn't take work home, if you work in a high-tempo field?), deal with ungrateful morons, etc. It is not a problem exclusive to civil servants.

I work for the government, I work long hours, take work home, etc., but I don't bitch about it, because I chose to work for them. I'm also smart enough to know that you should never rely on someone else to provide for your future, and that you have to put money towards retirement early. My pay raise is getting cut, every few years they talk about abolishing the sweet retirement deal we have, and they want us to start paying fees out of pocket for our medical plan. C'est la vive. I plan for it, accept it, and move on. If it becomes intolerable, I find a better job. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow?

2/19/2011 11:17:43 AM

Quote :

"Come on. It isn't irrelevant."

Obviously, I can't speak for them but I read yesterday that they gave into $100million in cuts at the beginning of this year and rescinded all pay raises. They were set to save the state close to $1bilion over the next two years through furloughs, missed days and other similar maneuvering. They sound pretty reasonable to me. Public workers realize we are still trying to climb out of a recession. I'm sure they would still be pissed off, because it really is a pretty big drop in pay they are taking but I kinda doubt you would see thousands of people occupying the state capitol because of it.

(I'm currently looking for the article I read, will post when I find it)

http://www.inthesetimes.com/working/entry/6783/wisconsins_governor-elect_launches_sharp_attack_on_public_workers/madison.com/.../host.madison.com/.../article_71e516bc-0968-11e0-93e4-001cc4c03286.htm

Quote :

"I'm not really sure why you should get "bargaining rights""

It's always strange to see a libertarian-type arguing we should take rights from someone

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 11:36 AM. Reason : not the exact link but similar]

2/19/2011 11:20:20 AM

^^^ because of this guy's point right here

cutting benefits is one thing but this bill attacks the worker's ability to negotiate

and FUCK THAT

you guys must not know Wisconsiners - they don't put up with this shit



[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 11:21 AM. Reason : -]

2/19/2011 11:21:08 AM

Quote :

" work for the government, I work long hours, take work home, etc., but I don't bitch about it, because I chose to work for them."

Contract work FTW. If i'm not getting paid for doing work I don't work. fuck being salaried and doing 50+ hour weeks without getting compensated for it. Also the per diem is pretty nice.

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 11:44 AM. Reason : `]

2/19/2011 11:42:30 AM

Quote :

"It's always strange to see a libertarian-type arguing we should take rights from someone "

You are missing the point. You do not have the right to take my money to benefit yourself.
I think private sector unions are fine, terrible for business, but perfectly moral. Because the workers are in direct negotiations with the employers, and it is the employer's money on the line.

Public sector unions pour money to elect their own politican who rewards them with OTHER peoples money. The union sits at both sides of the table. In a private sector the business man can refuse if it is costing him too much, in the public sector the tax payers cannot, if they want to avoid jail or seizure of their goods. One is voluntary, the other is force. Big difference.

People are always bitching about politicians and special interests...until its a union, who supports your party.

The bill puts the unions back to negotiating with the taxpayers, giving them a voice if they want to pay more for them.(which they dont have currently) Their raises are tied to inflation, not political influence.

Also it gives them a CHOICE of whether or not they want to join the union. CHOICE, unions hate that.

And of course they are willing to take a cut now. They know that elections are down the road and they can get "their guys" back in to give it all back to them. Which is why you have to decouple the link.

[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 11:52 AM. Reason : .]

2/19/2011 11:50:06 AM

Quote :

"It's always strange to see a libertarian-type arguing we should take rights from someone"

My rights have been ignored all along. I never consented to pay taxes. You don't have a right to take the fruits of someone else' labor. The problem with all state institutions is that they don't have to abide by the same market forces as the private sector. As a previous poster mentioned, companies downsize and cut pay/benefits all the time in order to remain solvent. Yet, for some reason, we expect that government workers should get more and more all the time. The government can't go out of business, and they have an unlimited pit of resources from which to take from. That's a problem.

2/19/2011 11:51:09 AM

i like unions except for the fact that they allow people who aren't good at their jobs to remain at those jobs because they are put of a union.

The teachers union for example. There are many ineffective teachers who remain at their jobs because of tenure or because no one wants to be a teacher. I believe education should be privatized, cutting out all the middle man bs and therefore allowing teacher salaries to be competitive and allowing their employers to evaluate their effectiveness.

2/19/2011 11:56:16 AM

FUCKING MOVE.

PLEASE

GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS COUNTRY

TAKE YOUR ASS TO SOME UNCLAIMED PLOT OF LAND AND AFRICA

AND RULE YOURSELF

FREE OF TAXES

AND THAT EVER OPPRESSIVE GOVERNMENT AND OUR SHITTY WAY OF LIFE HERE IN AMERICA

Let us know via carrier pigeon how that works out.

2/19/2011 11:56:17 AM

Quote :

"You are missing the point. You do not have the right to take my money to benefit yourself. "

The government has the right to tax you. Government workers have a right to be compensated for their work.

Quote :

"Public sector unions pour money to elect their own politican who rewards them with OTHER peoples money. The union sits at both sides of the table. In a private sector the business man can refuse if it is costing him too much, in the public sector the tax payers cannot, if they want to avoid jail or seizure of their goods. One is voluntary, the other is force. Big difference. "

You are right it's just another special interest. But if organized groups of people are allowed to do it in the private sector (either corporations or private unions), then the public sector should be allowed to do it as well. This is no different than a corporations funneling money to the candidate they like and then expecting huge tax breaks and subsidies in return when they are elected. Taxpayers can't refuse those either. Also Politicians can and do refuse public union demands. Public workers in WI had already agreed to what amounted to a 4% cut.

Quote :

"Also it gives them a CHOICE of whether or not they want to join the union. CHOICE, unions hate that. "

I actually support right to work laws, which I think would go a long way into solving other problems with unions (like was mentioned keeping useless workers around)







[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 12:10 PM. Reason : IT BEGINS]

2/19/2011 12:08:06 PM

Quote :

"for every skating teacher who couldn't get a job doing what they wanted, there are teachers who go full throttle and work well after 5pm and care about their students and inspire their students who go on to do great things "

I have had, in my life 1 teacher and one teacher only who was like this. What about the rest of you?

2/19/2011 12:08:09 PM

Fuck off, Chance. No country has such a strong tradition of respecting liberty than this one. Of course, we've deviated from that, but it might not be too late to go back. Why would I move? There's still something worth fighting for here.

2/19/2011 12:20:31 PM

No way dude, we'll never be that libertarian fantasy land you desire. NEVER. Never in a million years. So move and be done with it. Start your own life, government free.

2/19/2011 12:22:33 PM

You realize that the government doesn't just have to be "abolished," no questions asked, right? It's possible to roll back the destructive parts of government. By just allowing competition (in the realm of education, this means allowing for a voucher system or something similar), we can get the benefits of a free market.

2/19/2011 12:35:25 PM

Quote :

"I actually support right to work laws, which I think would go a long way into solving other problems with unions (like was mentioned keeping useless workers around) "

I agree. You also have to remember that state governments have to balance their budget.

Quote :

"FUCKING MOVE. "

That is exactly what happens. Detriot sound familar? California? Perhaps you should try moving to one of these utopias? Of course our federal dollars will just go to continue to bail them out.

Here is a good article explaining the difference.
http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/02/wisconsin-its-unions-vs-people-0


"Liberals and the White House try to blur the issue by lumping together government unions and labor unions in general. Obama wrongly calls Walker's bill "an attack on unions." It is, at its heart, a measure changing the way the state government procures labor -- Walker would end single-source contracts with a politically connected special interests.


And of course, there's the budget question. Wisconsin has raised taxes in recent years, and is still facing a multibillion-dollar deficit. Other state programs are being trimmed, and Walker's effort would be about spreading the pain -- specifically shifting some of the government workers' retirement contributions from taxpayers to the workers. If the government unions win, they guarantee more pain for everyone else, especially taxpayers.

In the romantic liberal vision of this union uprising, determined workers are standing up to the powerful. But there's no fat-cat owner wanting to pocket more profits here. The unions' target in Wisconsin is the taxpayer."

2/19/2011 12:52:16 PM

Quote :

"The government has the right to tax you. Government workers have a right to be compensated for their work."

I think you need to learn what a right is. The government doesn't have rights; rights belong to individuals.

2/19/2011 1:11:13 PM

Quote :

"If the government unions win, they guarantee more pain for everyone else, especially taxpayers. "

They've already agreed to cuts. Walker wanted more, which is fine. He probably could have struck a hard bargain but instead wants to union bust and end their right to collective bargain among other anti-union stuff.

Taking away the right to collective bargaining is the PRIMARY reason the workers are protesting.

I also love how the article fails to mention the money that Walker received during his election bid, whom he then turned around and granted tax breaks to after he won, the tax breaks that are atleast partly responsible for the increased budget shortfall. How is that any different from a public union giving money to the candidate that they support?



^you're right. Saying it's a right was incorrect. Society grants government permission to tax, so that it can function and perform its duties.




[Edited on February 19, 2011 at 1:25 PM. Reason : Im done]

2/19/2011 1:16:41 PM

Quote :

"I also love how the article fails to mention the money that Walker received during his election bid, whom he then turned around and granted tax breaks to after he won, the tax breaks that are atleast partly responsible for the increased budget shortfall. How is that any different from a public union giving money to the candidate that they support? "

He also ran on trying to attract business and increase employment.

If you cant see a difference between letting people keep more of what they earn, and giving people money they didnt earn, there isnt much I can do to help you.

2/19/2011 1:39:17 PM

They go to work everyday, they earn their paychecks. But you're right, I don't think there is much you can do for me.

2/19/2011 1:49:33 PM

Unions breed laziness. Someone new comes in with actual work ethic then gets harassed that they are "working too hard and making the other workers look bad." Mean while some drag dick puts in his eight hours and does about two hours worth the work and then complains that we are sending "their hardworking American jobs overseas" or as I like to call this foreign land Texas. Now this doesn't concern me too much because we are a private sector. Where the real concern should stem has already been stated and that is the public sector. It is really bad in Illinois, instead of focusing on making cuts, the government has raised the income tax and corporate tax. Sure that it is the easy fix but all it is going to do is push businesses out or make the state the least desirable to keep manufacturing in and there goes that taxable income.

2/19/2011 2:10:19 PM

^exactly. Didnt they lose 200k people over the decade? They just dont get it.

Terd where does the money come from to pay them? taxes. And when those taxes dont cover the pay increases... more taxes? Hard to pay taxes when you are being paid less, have lost your job, and property values decline. So we get deficits... so we can expect them to contribute to their own retirement and health ins like everyone else? nope. They dont care where the money comes from, just not from them. They were promised. haha

2/19/2011 2:27:06 PM

200,000 people moved out of Chicago and mostly into the Suburbs--130,000 who were middle class African Americans.

The state of Illinois itself grew over 4%. Nice try I guess.

2/19/2011 2:55:26 PM

ITT, the left / pro union folks can not defend their beliefs with facts.

2/19/2011 4:01:59 PM

I believe in performance based pay. If you work harder, you make more, if you are a piece of shit drag dick, you make less/lose your job to some one that does want to work. Let OSHA and the courts protect you from"unsafe work environments" and unlawful firings.

2/19/2011 4:38:49 PM

It that model was released, 80% of all teachers would be eating a shit sandwich.

Never have I encountered a group so ungrateful for what they had . They act like they were hammered to the cross if they have to do an hour of marking "after hours".

2/19/2011 5:50:07 PM

yep the city keeps losing about 7% per year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/census-data-chicago-popul_n_823769.html

"On the South and West Sides in particular, the shrinkage has left vast empty lots, miles of broad streets," Bey writes. "There is less of everything--and what there is can be expensive--when there aren't as many people around to support it."


In general, county taxes < city taxes.

I doubt chicago goes into a death spiral like Detriot, but I suppose it is possible. Esp if you keep losing your tax base.

2/19/2011 7:20:27 PM

google doesn't say 200,000 but it does show it fell for what its worth. I believe cook county is the one that contains chicago.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&idim=state:17000&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+of+illinois#met=population&idim=state:17000&idim=county:17031

2/19/2011 7:42:05 PM

The income and corporate tax got passed mid to late January, but don't worry they prorated it to January first for at least the state income tax which increased from I believe 3 percent to 5.25 percent.

2/19/2011 8:16:33 PM

^^^You can't even read the same link you post.

Quote :

" suburban collar counties continued to grow, some spectacularly. The biggest gainers were Will County, growing by 34.9 percent in the last 10 years to 677,560 residents, Kane County, growing 27.5 percent to 515,269 and McHenry Country, growing 18.7 percent to 308,760."

Also... "7% a year"? I give up, Bortz.

2/20/2011 2:07:47 AM

Sorry, 7% over 10 yrs. A trend that started in the 50s.

Yes people are moving out of the city to the county. Did I dispute that?

I suggested that many people are leaving the city and the state due to high COL and taxes.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/01/05/study-many-moved-out-of-illinois-in-2010/

The city now has less people than in the 1920s.

And the state lost a seat in congress, btw.

[Edited on February 20, 2011 at 9:35 AM. Reason : .]

2/20/2011 9:32:51 AM

wait so has Chicago or Illinois lost people and how many? What the hell? Who's link is right?

2/20/2011 10:45:40 AM

Quote :

"I don't understand; private enterprises make cuts to benefits and salary in order to stay solvent and/or stave off downsizing, and it's expected. We do it in the public sector, and suddenly we go batshit insane. Guys, that's life. It sucks. Teachers aren't the only ones who work long hours daily, take work home (who doesn't take work home, if you work in a high-tempo field?), deal with ungrateful morons, etc. It is not a problem exclusive to civil servants. I work for the government, I work long hours, take work home, etc., but I don't bitch about it, because I chose to work for them. I'm also smart enough to know that you should never rely on someone else to provide for your future, and that you have to put money towards retirement early. My pay raise is getting cut, every few years they talk about abolishing the sweet retirement deal we have, and they want us to start paying fees out of pocket for our medical plan. C'est la vive. I plan for it, accept it, and move on. If it becomes intolerable, I find a better job. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow?"

WHOA WHOA WHOA be careful. You are attempting to use logic against liberals. They only like to argue with emotions and feelings...

2/20/2011 10:55:28 AM

200,000 people moved out of Chicago so Chicago went down 7%

Illinois as a state grew 4+%. Hard to argue that people are "leaving Illinois".

I don't know what his point is, considering more than half of the 200,000 people who moved out of Chicago were recently-middle class African Americans who, with their new mobilization, decided to stake a better life out in the Suburbs. Should they have stayed in Chicago? Don't forget that Chicago's North Side is become wealthier and more gentrified (and less dense/populous, thanks to yuppie couples replacing families).

The only thing about Illinois is his most recent misleading article is:

Quote :

"Illinois was also in the conversation. United Van Lines moved 7,100 families out of Illinois and just 5,300 families in last year. The figures amount to 57.3 percent headed out."

Hmm, ok..

[Edited on February 20, 2011 at 11:00 AM. Reason : .]

2/20/2011 10:59:32 AM

Quote :

"I suggested that many people are leaving the city and the state due to high COL and taxes."

A fine suggestion...but that doesn't explain why people are entering North Carolina, 16 overall for gas taxes (Illinois is 5) and 21 for overall State/County tax burden (Illinois is better at 35).

(This isn't up to date data, but neither have populations been mass exodus-ing)
http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes/upload/January_2010_gasoline_and_diesel_summary_pages.pdf

http://www.retirementliving.com/tax_burden_2009.pdf

2/20/2011 11:04:44 AM

Doc Rambo IV claimed Illiniois had a bad policy on Unions

Then eyedrb used 200k people leaving Chicago as supporting evidence of Rambo's argument.

It's not Chicago that has the bad policy according to Doc Rambo IV, it's Illinois. What the hell does 200,000k people moving from one part of Illinois to another have to do with anything?



[Edited on February 20, 2011 at 11:11 AM. Reason : ]

2/20/2011 11:10:06 AM

Watching "Waiting for Superman"

Teacher unions can go fuck themselves

2/20/2011 11:13:42 AM

Quote :

"Hawthorne: I don't understand; private enterprises make cuts to benefits and salary in order to stay solvent and/or stave off downsizing, and it's expected. We do it in the public sector, and suddenly we go batshit insane. Guys, that's life. It sucks. Teachers aren't the only ones who work long hours daily, take work home (who doesn't take work home, if you work in a high-tempo field?), deal with ungrateful morons, etc. It is not a problem exclusive to civil servants. I work for the government, I work long hours, take work home, etc., but I don't bitch about it, because I chose to work for them. I'm also smart enough to know that you should never rely on someone else to provide for your future, and that you have to put money towards retirement early. My pay raise is getting cut, every few years they talk about abolishing the sweet retirement deal we have, and they want us to start paying fees out of pocket for our medical plan. C'est la vive. I plan for it, accept it, and move on. If it becomes intolerable, I find a better job. Why is this such a hard pill to swallow?"

I'm not talking about this particular instance, but I think part of why it sucks especially for government workers is that there's a lot more politics involved. I know private business can get pretty complicated. But in the government, there are like fifteen hundred different interests lobbying at once. Civil servants, like teachers, have to go up against extraordinarily wealthy, organized, powerful industries, like gigantic investment firms and huge pharmaceutical companies. And it's bullshit when your reps go off and vote to cut the capital gains tax and expand prescription drugs benefits, and then come back like, "Alright, everybody, time to tighten your belts..."

2/20/2011 12:03:54 PM

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/district-299/2010/07/migration-leaving-chicago.html

Lots of red to florida huh.
Here is the direct link. Cool site. Look at the people fleeing LA and miami. geez
http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/04/migration-moving-wealthy-interactive-counties-map.html

People are leaving chicago. High COL, taxes, appear to be drivers. So does public schools apparently.

Illinios, while growing, LOST a seat in congress bc their population is not growing as much as other states. (there is no law against people in Illinios having kids either) Because the population is growing doesnt mean people are flocking to the state either.

"Illinois grew, too, but not at the pace of some states in the Sun Belt and elsewhere. Because of Illinois’s slow growth (to about 12.8 million people from about 12.4 million in 2000), the state will lose a seat in Congress, one in a string of such losses for Illinois in recent decades."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/us/16illinois.html?src=mv

"Illinois State Representative Will Burns, who represents a mostly South Side district, said: “African-Americans are the same as most. They want a bigger house, better schools, a better quality of life than they can get in the city.”

"They are returning to fast-growing states in the once-segregated South in search of better job opportunities and quality of life.

The South — places such as Atlanta, Dallas and Houston — accounted for roughly 75 percent of the population gains among blacks since 2000. The gains came at the expense of Northern metro areas such as New York and Chicago, which posted their first declines in black population since at least 1980."

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/02/15/census-many-african-americans-leaving-northern-cities/

Although we are really getting off track here. But I wanted to respond.

[Edited on February 20, 2011 at 12:19 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2011 12:17:42 PM

No mention of the Koch brothers in here yet? (at least not on this page)

Perhaps you guys should check that out before you say that this isn't a good bit of bullshit.

2/20/2011 12:19:09 PM

Just glad you dropped your 200,000 / 7%-a-year arguments.

2/20/2011 2:29:33 PM

I am trying to get back down south for numerous reasons, but the most recent one added was the insane hike in state income tax. That is going to cost me at least an additional $1600 a year out of my take home to support a renown corrupt government making awful policy choices.

2/20/2011 2:37:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuuUV94bOW0&feature=player_embedded

2/24/2011 11:18:23 PM

one my best friends lives in Madison and attended a protest:



[Edited on February 25, 2011 at 12:01 AM. Reason : he's the one with the good sign]

2/25/2011 12:00:48 AM

I can never really comment objectively on this.

My mother has worked the same shitty job at the same shitty elementary school in Newport, North Carolina for 35 years. Every bit of it has sucked.

So, no, I don't really see where people can say teachers have it "well off". But, again, pretty biased.

2/25/2011 1:25:59 AM

The problem is that Teacher's Unions reward seniority, not merit. I live out in Cali, and have several young teacher friends who have received pink slips stating that they will not have jobs next year. These are bright, young, highly-qualified teachers who suffer because it's impossible to either A) fire lazy tenured teachers, or B) get the teacher's unions to agree to sensible salary and/or benefit cuts reflecting these tough times. Instead, energetic young teachers get the shaft year after year because they haven't paid into the system as long.

2/25/2011 2:34:26 AM

Quote :

"My mother has worked the same shitty job at the same shitty elementary school in Newport, North Carolina for 35 years. Every bit of it has sucked"

IF i work the same shitty job for 2 years I would start looking into another school to work in or maybe a change of job. Why would you stay in a shitty job?

2/25/2011 8:21:00 AM

Quote :

"IF i work the same shitty job for 2 years I would start looking into another school to work in or maybe a change of job. Why would you stay in a shitty job?"

Not too many jobs out there if you went to school specifically to be a teacher. And you can't move with a family, especially when the father usually has the better job and won't move. And normally, if one school in the school system sucks, then the rest of them do as well.

2/25/2011 8:29:55 AM

Shut up, chalk hands - a real man is speaking.

2/25/2011 8:31:02 AM

Quote :

"But if organized groups of people are allowed to do it in the private sector (either corporations or private unions), then the public sector should be allowed to do it as well."

because there is a distinct difference between the public and private sector? Did that ever occur to you?

2/25/2011 1:09:36 PM

Quote :

"Not too many jobs out there if you went to school specifically to be a teacher. And you can't move with a family, especially when the father usually has the better job and won't move. And normally, if one school in the school system sucks, then the rest of them do as well."

Maybe you should think these things through or perhaps learning another field to work in? Why spend 35 years dealing with a shitty job? Just doesn't make sense to me.

2/25/2011 5:44:09 PM