Don't get me wrong, I think the republicans are being gigantic douchebags, and they could give two shits and a fuck about how it ultimately helps or hurts anyone-- I fully believe they are ultimately being disingenuous about their real agenda.

That said, the modern unions are nothing more than parasitic entities designed to fleece (in this case) the taxpayers.


Under the Green Bay School District’s collectively bargained Emeritus Program, teaches can retire and receive a year’s worth of salary for working only 30 days over a three year period. This is paid in addition to their already guaranteed pension and health care payouts.
http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/140-green-bay-teachers-looking-to-retire


A Wausau public employee union filed a grievance to prohibit a local volunteer from serving as a school crossing guard. The 86-year-old lives just two blocks away and serves everyday free of charge.
http://www.waow.com/Global/story.asp?S=11891208

Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/96349689.html

As a cost cutting measure, Racine County began using county inmates to cut the grass in medians and right-of-ways at no cost to the taxpayers. A county employee union filed a grievance indicating it was the right of government workers to cut the grass, even though it would cost the taxpayers dramatically more.
http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/article_6a940044-5e23-11df-91a0-001cc4c03286.html

In 2009, the City of Madison’s highest paid employee was a bus driver who earned $159,258, including $109,892 in overtime, guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement. In total, seven City of Madison bus drivers made more than $100,000 per year in 2009.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_24af32d4-13f4-11df-86b2-001cc4c002e0.html

[Edited on March 10, 2011 at 1:53 PM. Reason : .]

3/10/2011 1:52:30 PM

^good links.

3/10/2011 2:34:42 PM

Quote :

"At least this shows flat out that this had nothing to do with the budget."

Considering that part of the budget problems were due to the unions, I'd say that's laughable. It's hilarious that you guys are so hell-bent on defending unions that you can't see how they are actually very costly in terms of real dollars. That's why you don't understand why jobs are going overseas where there are no unions.

3/10/2011 3:41:22 PM

It's hilarious that you are so hell-bent on attacking collective bargaining that you can't see how it is actually very necessary in terms of defending workers' rights. That's why you don't understand why jobs are going overseas where corporations can pay employees 1/10th of what they do here.

3/10/2011 3:47:57 PM

so, you deny that unions are extremely costly? I mean, shit, Bobby posted 4 great links about how expensive they are, especially public unions.

I have nothing against collective bargaining when it is done in good faith and is reasonable, and when it is not involved with picking its own boss to award goodies on the public dime.

[Edited on March 10, 2011 at 3:52 PM. Reason : ]

3/10/2011 3:50:13 PM

workers dont have a right to make shit cost more for no reason.

one of my biggest beefs with unions is how they do their best to break up automation in favor of bad human powered systems.

everything from web based account management systems to safer, automated trains are killed by unions even though they would cost less and be better for tax payers.

collective bargaining is all about forcing companies and government to keep deadweight around instead of ditching useless people for better people/automation.

Do like LoneSnark said and make it illegal to force any business or government organization into collective bargaining. let them strike if they want but give business and government the ability to go somewhere else to replace them.

Fuck unions.

3/10/2011 3:54:20 PM

Yeah I agree unions are costly and are capable of corruption, but if you remove collective bargaining altogether, you put the power solely in the hands of the corporations. That is not a good thing.

Quote :

"I have nothing against collective bargaining when it is done in good faith and is reasonable"

fair enough

[Edited on March 10, 2011 at 3:55 PM. Reason : .]

3/10/2011 3:55:11 PM

removing PUBLIC unions puts the power in the hands of corporations? really?

3/10/2011 3:56:32 PM

No, I mean private unions. Public employees are also subject to mistreatment, though.

3/10/2011 4:00:38 PM

Quote :

"It's hilarious that you are so hell-bent on attacking collective bargaining that you can't see how it is actually very necessary in terms of defending workers' rights."

Wah Wah Wah

3/10/2011 5:08:19 PM

^
I was mimicking aaronburro's post, but I'm not sure what your point is?

3/10/2011 5:10:41 PM

What is Walker's bill going to do about the issues BobbyDigital posted about?

And Walker himself has said the union thing is not about the budget, the unions conceded to the budget-related items, and the bill was passed quickly and with subterfuge. It's blindingly obvious that the fight is not about the budget. Walker hates unions, and this is his way at chipping away at them.



People taking advantage of a system doesn't mean to throw out unions all together. That's as much a fault of the people who negotiated to allow those things as it is the unions' fault.

3/10/2011 5:45:09 PM

Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.

3/10/2011 6:52:06 PM

^ the reverse can also be true, try going up to Baltimore and getting a job at the dock.

Funny it is that NC works just fine without public sector unions.

Quote :

"A Wausau public employee union filed a grievance to prohibit a local volunteer from serving as a school crossing guard. The 86-year-old lives just two blocks away and serves everyday free of charge."

This blew my mine.

My biggest problem with unions is the whole thing about seniority. Unions discourage young ambitious individuals from applying themselves to their job and shields more "senior" employees of repercussions for being worthless.

Before our last round of layoffs in 2008 I had a project that required an electrician to install cabling and a plc into 10 machines within our plant. For half the project two of the "seasoned" electricians teamed up and probably average 4 hours a machine. Shutdown came up and the "seasoned" electricians got called away and in their place was one apprentice electrician. She, however, managed to knock out the last 6 machines in ONE day, even with the temperature climbing to 90 deg F in the production room due to maintenance on the A/C. When the layoffs did come guess who was gone and who remained to enjoy their 10 smoke breaks a day.....

[Edited on March 10, 2011 at 7:01 PM. Reason : l]

[Edited on March 10, 2011 at 7:01 PM. Reason : l]

3/10/2011 6:54:34 PM

too bad that pretty graph has been debunked about a million and a half times.

Quote :

"That's as much a fault of the people who negotiated to allow those things as it is the unions' fault."

Too bad the people who "negotiated" were hand-picked by the unions so they wouldn't "negotiate"

3/10/2011 7:07:25 PM

Quote :

"Considering that part of the budget problems were due to the unions, I'd say that's laughable."

No, this bill wasn't about spending money. It was about union busting plain and simple. Perhaps you'd care to acknowledge (and subsequently defend) the kickbacks and generous favors granted to Walker's Koch Bros. Overlords.

3/11/2011 1:00:50 AM

What Kickbacks? The only legislation that has passed was a union busting bill.

Quote :

"1. In 2009, the City of Madison’s highest paid employee was a bus driver who earned $159,258, including $109,892 in overtime, guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement. In total, seven City of Madison bus drivers made more than $100,000 per year in 2009. 2. Correctional Officer collective bargaining agreements allow officers a practice known as “sick leave stacking.” Officers can call in sick for a shift, receiving 8 hours of sick pay, and then are allowed to work the very next shift, earning time-and-a-half for overtime. This results in the officer receiving 2.5 times his or her rate of pay, while still only working 8 hours. In part because of these practices, 13 correctional officers made more than $100,000 in 2009, despite earning base wages of less than $60,000 per year. The officers received an average of $66,000 in overtime pay for an average annual salary of more than $123,000 with the highest paid receiving $151,181. 3. Under the Green Bay School District’s collectively bargained Emeritus Program, teaches can retire and receive a year’s worth of salary for working only 30 days over a three year period. This is paid in addition to their already guaranteed pension and health care payouts. 4. Due to a 1982 provision of their collective bargaining agreement, Milwaukee Public School teachers actually receive two pensions upon retirement instead of one. The contribution to the second pension is equal to 4.2% of a teacher’s salary, with the school district making 100% of the contribution, just like they do for the first pension. This extra benefit costs taxpayers more than $16 million per year. 5. Some state employees, due to the nature of their positions, are required to carry pagers during off-duty hours in order to respond to emergency situations. Due to the collective bargaining agreements, these employees are compensated an extra five hours of pay each week, whether they are paged or not. For an employee earning an average salary of $50,000 per year, this requirement can cost more than $6,000 in additional compensation. 6. Milwaukee Public Schools teacher Megan Sampson was laid off less than one week after being named Outstanding First Year Teacher by the Wisconsin Council of English Teachers. She lost her job because the collective bargaining agreement requires layoffs to be made based on seniority rather than merit. Informed that her union had rejected a lower-cost health care plan, that still would have required zero contribution from teachers, Sampson said, “Given the opportunity, of course I would switch to a different plan to save my job, or the jobs of 10 other teachers." 7. As a cost cutting measure, Racine County began using county inmates to cut the grass in medians and right-of-ways at no cost to the taxpayers. A county employee union filed a grievance indicating it was the right of government workers to cut the grass, even though it would cost the taxpayers dramatically more."

3/11/2011 1:02:54 AM

*sigh* You clearly haven't been paying attention. http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/walker-paying-back-koch-brothers-wisconsin

Cue burro to rush in here and play the "A politician helping those whom got him elected? That never happens!" Or something equally sarcastic and pedantic...

3/11/2011 1:29:06 AM

$43,000 is chump change in terms of campaign contributions, and you're high off your mind if you think that Walker is doing this all as a giveaway to a couple of guys who contributed less than one half of 1% of the money he raised in the past election cycle. For reference, the public sector unions contributed much, much more to his competitor Tom Barrett.

Independent analyses have already shown that the power plant "giveaways" are really pretty worthless, considering the huge liabilities associated with bringing them into compliance with the EPA. And the "union busting", again, has nothing to do with private sector unions. Try again.

3/11/2011 2:32:00 AM

But surely you see the inherent connection between these billionaire right-wing activists getting involved and Walker's tireless effort to destroy the public unions that didn't support his campaign. While not linear, it's all a part of the right's objective to destroy the left while making substantial monetary gains for their already rich backers. I'll be honest here, I don't have a particularly strong feeling for or against public sector collective bargaining but rather the insipid nature of the right to gin up hysteria under the guise of fiscal crisis in order to ram through their non-monetary agendas.

Personally, I am more concerned about this allegation that Walker appointed someone with little to no regard for environmental regulations and is against clean energy because it detracts (once again) from his oil tycoon pals.

3/11/2011 5:00:30 AM

Lots of unfounded allegations being thrown around. Be careful about getting too caught up in them.

The Koch brothers are dyed in the wool libertarians. They are no different from George Soros in their massive political spending. If you actually look at the money they spend and where it goes, it is an ideological thing for them as opposed to trying to buy off politicians. If they wanted special favors from government, there are much easier ways of bribing people in power. Their motives are not nearly so nefarious; they just think that low taxes and deregulation are the key to economic growth.

3/11/2011 5:26:23 AM

How do you know that?

3/11/2011 6:34:36 AM

Quote :

"I'll be honest here, I don't have a particularly strong feeling for or against public sector collective bargaining but rather the insipid nature of the right to gin up hysteria under the guise of fiscal crisis in order to ram through their non-monetary agendas."

Forgive me if I don't see a $1.7BILLION budget deficit as "ginning up hysteria under the guise of a fiscal crisis"

3/11/2011 10:39:53 AM

Where are you getting $1.7BILLIONSCARYCAPS? I'm seeing $130millionnotsoscarycaps for this year with another $120millionmoderatelyscarycaps added thanks to Walker's tax breaks for his conservative pals. This is what I found in a pinch. I'm sure you'll play the "blame the source game" if you can't refute it: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/unions_arent_to_blame_for_wisc.html

3/11/2011 11:12:43 AM

aaronburro and HockeyRoman are like the same poster on opposite extreme sides of the political spectrum.

it's kind of funny.

3/11/2011 11:19:28 AM

That makes me sad. I am not pro-union or an ardent shill for the left. It just makes me sick seeing the right act in such a manner and not get called out for it. Take away collective bargaining? Hell if I care, but be honest about it (much like that one republican chap was) and say that this was a measure to try and ensure that Obama (or other democrats) don't get re-elected. As I previously stated, what bothers me the most about Walker is in his haste to appease his Koch Brother Overlords he's trampling environmental protection to do so.

Also, I've read enough of burro's drivel over the years to know how to mock him effectively.

[Edited on March 11, 2011 at 11:31 AM. Reason : .]

3/11/2011 11:28:03 AM

let me tell you about why we don't need unions from my experience being a privileged male engineer.

3/11/2011 12:39:06 PM

Quote :

"...Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ... "

How can you say it any better than FDR? This isn't about all unions, this is about public sector unions. We, the people, control how much public employees make, the conditions they work in, etc through our representatives. You want state employees to make more? Have a better pension? Vote in a representative who will make it happen.

3/11/2011 5:47:28 PM

Palin:
"Well, it is these union bosses' responsibility to turn down the rhetoric and start getting truth out there so that nobody gets hurt."

[Edited on March 11, 2011 at 6:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/11/2011 5:58:37 PM

"I agree!"

3/11/2011 11:53:20 PM

So how extreme is the bill passed last night? Not very, at least in comparison to other states. Here’s Josh Barro of the Manhattan Institute:

Wisconsin’s new policies on public-employee relations will not be especially unusual. Only 26 states have laws that grant collective-bargaining privileges to substantially all public employees. Twelve have laws that give collective bargaining to some workers, and twelve have no statewide collective-bargaining law at all, though some municipalities may grant bargaining rights in those states.

What about federal workers? They have comparatively strict limits on collective bargaining privileges too. Here’s Barro again:

Federal workers have very limited collective bargaining rights—and Obama has not been shy about exploiting that weakness. He's using the budget process to push a two-year freeze on federal workers' pay, without any buy-in from the unions. If he were governor of Wisconsin, he'd have to get union heads in a room and plead with them to allow the freeze.

So is President Obama also some sort of anti-union extremist, committed to exploiting workers’ weaknesses and attacking families and generally being the sort of anti-union thug that so many labor supporters seem intent on portraying Walker as? Somehow I’m guessing the answer is no.
http://reason.com/blog/2011/03/10/the-extreme-bill-in-wisconsin

3/12/2011 12:02:21 PM

Quote :

"Where are you getting $1.7BILLIONSCARYCAPS?"

You need to look a little deeper. This isn't just about this year. The projected deficit for the next 2 years is 3.5B. Google it. It's a well-known fact

3/12/2011 1:59:59 PM

Protesters attend the rally for the returning "Fab 14" Democratic senators at Capitol Square in Madison, Wisconsin. Photograph: Steve Apps/AP

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/13/democratic-republican-senators-wisconsin-dispute

[Edited on March 13, 2011 at 4:39 PM. Reason : ]

3/13/2011 4:33:03 PM

Quote :

"So the Republicans in Wisconsin eliminated collective bargaining for public unions except on wages. The Democratic Secretary of State, fully within the law, is delaying making the law official for 10 days. This 10 days is giving us a great picture of the problem with public unions. Why? Because the 10 days was explicitly to allow cities and counties to cut new deals with unions, since all deals before the law is passed are grandfathered. The fact that many city and county governments are rushing to take advantage of this window just proves that public collective bargaining is broken — no one is looking after the taxpayers. I have argued that public unions are basically on the same side of the table with governments in bargaining sessions. What could be better proof? If government officials really cared about the taxpayer or their fiduciary responsibility, why in the world would they be rushing to cut above-market deals with government employees when they won’t have to do so in just 10 days? Government officials are colluding with unions to race to transfer more wealth from taxpayers to workers before the window for such subsidies shuts."

http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2011/03/wisconsin-officials-rushing-to-prove-why-public-unions-are-a-problem.html

3/15/2011 11:08:23 PM

Quote :

"An Indiana deputy prosecutor and Republican activist resigned Thursday after the Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism published an e-mail in which he suggested faking an attack on Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker. Carlos F. Lam submitted his resignation shortly after the Center published a story quoting his Feb. 19 e-mail, which praised Walker but went on to say that the situation in Wisconsin presented “a good opportunity for what’s called a ‘false flag’ operation.” “If you could employ an associate who pretends to be sympathetic to the unions’ cause to physically attack you (or even use a firearm against you), you could discredit the unions,” the email said. The e-mail also said: "Currently, the media is painting the union protest as a Democratic uprising and failing to mention the role of the DNC and umbrella union organizations in the protest. Employing a false flag operation would assist in undercutting any support that the media may be creating in favor of the unions. God bless, Carlos F. Lam."

http://www.leadertelegram.com/news/daily_updates/article_843ffc3e-565f-11e0-bd67-001cc4c03286.html

God bless, indeed.

3/24/2011 9:56:59 PM