But as the economy continues to stagnate, the number of internships, co-ops, and research opportunities decrease, making it more difficult to find those chances in undergrad. I feel very fortunate I was in school while the economy was good and it was easy to get internships. Now I work for a university and daily see undergrad students fretting because even bullshit work study jobs have dried up as departments tighten their belts.

9/18/2011 9:37:17 AM

Is there a petition for people who do not support this?

9/18/2011 6:31:47 PM

Yeah, this thing sounds all kinds of stupid. And wtf was up with someone actually bitching about the cost of NCSU tuition on the last page? It's a joke compared with many other schools.

[Edited on September 18, 2011 at 6:49 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2011 6:49:11 PM

This is a staggeringly stupid idea. It's awful that it's even being proposed and discussed.

Quote :

"So basically never buy a car or a house for as long as you live? "

I financed a couple of cars when I was fresh out of college. By the time I'd been out of school and working for a few years, though, I was buying them with cash. There are worse things to finance than a car, but they're definitely not in the same class as a mortgage.

What's bad is that the overwhelming majority of people just have this attitude that cars are something you finance, and that stroking a check (or pulling out a bag of $100 bills, or swiping a credit card or two and then immediately paying them off...I've done every method) isn't really even an option on the table.

I'm not some Dave Ramsey type that thinks all debt in every situation is the devil, but neither do I accept that most people should be financing cars.

9/18/2011 6:59:16 PM

This is a silly idea.

With that said, it's also silly that you can't refinance your government student loan.

9/18/2011 7:02:15 PM

That is also true.

9/18/2011 7:03:25 PM

My girlfriend is paying nearly 7% on her med school loan, double what it would be today, but can't refinance.

Then there are matters like this: there's federal debt forgiveness for medical workers in the public sector, but since there are no public hospitals in the area, she doesn't qualify, even though private hospitals like WakeMed function as public hospitals by not turning away patients.

9/18/2011 7:10:54 PM

Beggers can't be choosers.




I mean, I hear what you're saying...the distinction between public and private seems dumb to me, although I'm not an expert on this program. Of course, we probably shouldn't be forgiving the debt for any of them.

[Edited on September 18, 2011 at 7:18 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2011 7:17:25 PM

I just don't understand this concept of people agreeing to take out a loan at a certain % and then being pissed off when they are forced to make payments.

9/18/2011 7:55:37 PM

^ Not complaining about having to pay, but it is a bit ridiculous that you can refinance any other loan in the world, but not a government student loan.

^^ The idea is that the government will forgive a certain part of debt if you use your education to work for the public good (same idea as the Teaching Fellows tuition subsidy if you agree to teach at a public school). You shouldn't have to move out of Wake County to serve the public good just because the county hospital is now a private corporation.

9/18/2011 8:22:15 PM

Does it count if she works at Rex? Or commutes to Chapel Hill?

WakeMed isn't the only hospital in the area, right?

(She should work at the central prison hospital and really do her part!!! LOL)

9/18/2011 9:18:14 PM

Quote :

"Is there a petition for people who do not support this?"

This

9/18/2011 9:29:43 PM

I don't quite understand the irrational loyalty to creditors over borrowers in this thread. The problem, essentially the same as the one in the housing bubble, is that banks have been giving out loans on items that were highly overvalued due to market intervention. In the housing bubble, home prices came down to earth, but banks were (are) still using "mark to myth" - assessing the value of the loan based on the nominal value of the item at the time of its purchase. The same thing is going on with student loans - the cost of a degree is typically significantly more than its real value.

Without the government props, this bubble never could have become as outrageous as it has become. As a matter of fact, though, there are people now that will never be able to pay off their loans, barring some massive, unexpected windfall. Sorry, guys...we're not going to move into the "new sustainable economy" with a generation of debt slaves. The bad debt needs to be cleared out, and we need to end this system that perpetually sends good money after bad.

[Edited on September 18, 2011 at 9:39 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2011 9:37:27 PM

Quote :

"I don't quite understand the irrational loyalty to creditors over borrowers in this thread. "

because even if i agree with you on the economics of those loans, that has nothing to do with contract law. you signed a contract to borrow that money and pay it back. Ante up, motherfucker.

9/18/2011 10:06:52 PM

you signed a contract to borrow that money and pay it back. Ante up, motherfucker.

9/18/2011 10:07:39 PM

http://signon.org/sign/want-a-real-economic?source=mo&id=31019-9543047-IY_VKMx

>_<

9/18/2011 10:13:57 PM

There's no reason you can't change the contract law, though. Maybe this isn't the solution, but I agree with the gist of what d357r0y3r is saying. This bill isn't meant to be a handout just for the hell of it - it's to get people to spend money and create jobs. The underlying big picture problems are what need to be fixed first.

9/18/2011 10:27:11 PM

If A and B enter into a contract, and then mutually agree to amend that contract, then good for them.

If C and A get together and say to B, "Fuck you and your contract", that's a different matter.

9/18/2011 10:39:09 PM

Yeah, and the government gives out most student loans now, so no problem there. Does anyone not go through FAFSA?

9/18/2011 10:50:20 PM

I guess we live in a representative democracy, so everyone technically has a say-so, but effectively, you have the government brokering a loan between A and [everyone], and then telling A that they can walk with [everyone]'s money.

9/19/2011 12:37:35 AM

Quote :

"I don't quite understand the irrational loyalty to creditors over borrowers in this thread"

It isn't that so many people are siding with the creditors in this thread, it is more that it would be completely unfair to those who have busted their butts to pay off their student debt and the precedent that it would set.

Compare two situations, one where a student goes to college for 4-5 years, works a side job the entire time, and has a limited amount of debt by graduation. Another student goes to college for 4-5 years, might have a job during the summer but otherwise doesn't work and then graduates with a load of debt. If that debt is simply forgiven then how is that fair to the first student who worked so hard trying to be financially responsible?

And besides the point of it being completely unfair (because when is the government concerned about being fair?) what kind of precedent does this set? What are current and future students supposed to think about student loans? If the debt is forgiven now then what kind of incentive does that provide for those who will owe in the future to pay?

9/19/2011 10:01:44 AM

I'm a little torn here. I understand the argument some people have on the other side and do agree there are some mismanaged aspects of the whole student loan deal. I do also know non-lazy, smart people who got degrees in useful studies and have just not been at the right place at the right time to get the job that makes their investment in their degree worth it. Hasn't really been there fault that they aren't able to pay much of the debt down. (They are all working and paying the debt, just not making what they expected).

At the same time I have busted my butt to make my investment in myself worth it and pay back the student loans. I took out loans for my entire college education at State because my parents had no money saved up for it. I graduated in 2007 and my loans should be paid off within the next 12 months.

9/19/2011 10:13:06 AM

Quote :

"because even if i agree with you on the economics of those loans, that has nothing to do with contract law. you signed a contract to borrow that money and pay it back. Ante up, motherfucker."

Exactly!

Quote :

"it is a bit ridiculous that you can refinance any other loan in the world, but not a government student loan."

It's not ridiculous. For most other loans you have collateral in case you default. The same is not the case for student loans. There is no incentive to let you refinance.

9/19/2011 10:36:42 AM

^^dur. their* not there. I'm ashamed.

[Edited on September 19, 2011 at 11:25 AM. Reason : ]

9/19/2011 11:24:55 AM

Quote :

"If A and B enter into a contract, and then mutually agree to amend that contract, then good for them. If C and A get together and say to B, "Fuck you and your contract", that's a different matter."

It's a lot more complicated than that. If it had just been A and B entering into a contract, then the fact is that most of these student loans would have never been issued, because the creditors (B) would have never been convinced that the borrower (A) would be able to get the income necessary to pay it back. As it stands now, the cost of the degree is generally a complete fantasy. It's yet another area of the economy where the price discovery process has been fucked with incessantly, which means that universities just keep jacking up the price every year because they know that creditors (and hence, borrowers) will be able to pay.

Quote :

"And besides the point of it being completely unfair (because when is the government concerned about being fair?) what kind of precedent does this set? What are current and future students supposed to think about student loans? If the debt is forgiven now then what kind of incentive does that provide for those who will owe in the future to pay?"

Hopefully it will discourage the use of student loans at all. That's kind of my general argument here: that giving out loans (especially loans that cover 50-100% of the total cost) for an item that cannot be defaulted on, unlike a home or car, is a pretty awful idea. It fits my definition of "bad debt" - debt that cannot reasonably be expected to be paid off.

I get that it's not fair to the people that worked hard and paid for their education up front. Our generation is going to have to deal with a lot of things that aren't fair. Welcome to life. It's gonna get even tougher, considering our current trajectory. For the record, I don't support this kind of legislation - I think the government should allow for bankruptcy/refinancing on these loans.

Also note that this discussion applies to virtually no one that went to NCSU. We're talking about people with 100-300k in debt because they got some useless degree at a shitty private university.

[Edited on September 19, 2011 at 11:55 AM. Reason : ]

9/19/2011 11:54:19 AM

Even at six figures, that debt can reasonably be expected to be paid off

9/19/2011 12:02:47 PM

Let's use the example I used earlier in the thread: someone that has 100k-300k of debt from getting a J.D. from a 3rd/4th tier law school. Those people aren't going to find a high-income job.

Combine that with the fact that the economy has been losing steam for some time, and that there's a good chance we'll see negative GDP growth in the coming years...it's not a rosy picture. Interest rates are eventually going to have to go up even higher, and when that happens, a lot of this debt will be regarded as toxic.

[Edited on September 19, 2011 at 12:16 PM. Reason : ]

9/19/2011 12:13:41 PM

It's certainly not fair to discharge at least some student loan debts. Just like it wasn't fair to bail out the banks.

But having a generation of debt slaves and a huge amount of toxic assets is going to drag the economy down, just like not bailing out the banks would have been more fair but worse for the economy.

9/19/2011 12:34:31 PM

Noen is an idiot.

Quote :

"Unemployed? Get a job mowing yards, stocking groceries, as a trade apprentice, a sanitation worker, a teacher, or any of a 1000 other professions hurting for skilled labor."

These are only valid options for those who have never been employed and do not have unemployment insurance as an option. Why would someone give up the time they have available to commit to a job search and learn a new skill to work mowing grass or bagging groceries only to earn less? To me, it doesn't sound like a really efficient use of time and resources. Furthermore taking those jobs restricts unskilled labor from moving into those jobs, making the true unemployment situation worse.

All that aside...aren't you from an affluent family in Greensboro or some shit? I really don't believe that you had loans in the first place. I think you really just wanted the opportunity to state that you graduated a semester early with working (not really that impressive) and pat yourself on the back some more.

vinylbandit

While I agree with you on principle that student lows should have refinance options, you are incorrect that her loans would be half that at this time. Current student loan rates for professional graduate schools is 6.8% for the first $20,500 and 7.9% thereafter. If anything she would be looking at a blended rate of 7.4%, which is higher than what she has now.

9/19/2011 12:47:10 PM

^^ that's the stuff that has me not knowing how I really feel about this. Fair vs what is good for the overall economy. With the economy being so poor since I have been out of school, I have spent a lot of money paying down my student loans as opposed to putting extra into house payments or extra investing which might not guarantee a better return. After paying tens of thousands of dollars in student loan repayment over the past 4.5 years and being ~1 year from finishing, it would be a punch in the gut to finish my loans and have a bunch of other people get their loans forgiven.

Especially if you think about it on a same major vs same major level. I busted my butt, did the mature thing and took a job that moved me away from friends and family and my gf at the time (now wife) because it was the right career/financial move, and have paid ahead to finish my loans early. No matter how many filters they put in to stream stuff, part of me will always know that I did all that and turned around and then paid someone else tens of thousands of dollars of my own money for them to get an ME degree and not get a job because they weren't flexible in moving or didn't bust their butt in school. Yes there will always be people who are legitimately getting screwed by this economy but the scenario I described will almost certainly happen and, in a completely selfish way, that irks me.

9/19/2011 1:08:31 PM

Quote :

"someone that has 100k-300k of debt from getting a J.D. from a 3rd/4th tier law school. Those people aren't going to find a high-income job."

Right, and spending six figures on a car is a stupid idea too, but if you want to go through with it, I'm not going to stop you.

9/19/2011 1:38:28 PM

Right...but we don't say that you have to keep the debt from a car no matter what. At some point, it's determined that you can't even service the interest on the loan, so you default. That's why large student loans are a bad idea.

9/19/2011 1:50:26 PM

correct, they take your car back. Unless your proposing we lobotomize people to take back the education they got then making it non-default-able is about the only way to handle this.

9/19/2011 2:03:23 PM

http://www.google.com/search?q=hr+365+debt

9/19/2011 2:16:41 PM

Nah, there are a lot of ways to handle it. Borrowers with unserviceable debt have their credit taken out back and shot, principle/interest reduced to amount deemed payable by the courts. Creditors suffer major losses for being idiots. Government stops propping up the system. It's unsustainable - let's get back to a model that will allow us to compete in the global market. Let's not stick with a model that is clearly not working and putting us further and further behind out of "fairness" to the banks. The banks get to loan out money they don't even have due to the fractional reserve system...they are not on your team.

9/19/2011 2:19:10 PM

Quote :

"It's unsustainable - let's get back to a model that will allow us to compete in the global market."

Compared to other countries, we do a lot less subsidizing of higher ed. That's not really a secret.

9/19/2011 3:06:05 PM

d357r0y3r is on point here.

9/19/2011 7:30:17 PM

^^ Yeah I wouldn't mind if we did something similar to Sweden. Hell most of the Indian and Korean students I work for have all their US education paid for by their governments.

9/19/2011 9:03:33 PM

Quote :

"you signed a contract to borrow that money and pay it back. Ante up, motherfucker."

Considering that bankruptcy exists, why can you get rid of debt on a failed business but not on a failed education? Because knowledge is forever? Hell, you'd learn more in the business. Nobody is arguing for student loans to be forgiven the year after graduation here. Creditors have lost money for thousands of years when they make bad loans. When I read horror stories on the internet about people with $100k in student debt working $25k/year jobs, those sound like bad loans. I don't know why the full amount should be shackled to those people forever. Yes, it's different from a car or house because they can be taken away, but the creditors still don't get the full value. Also, don't people also sign a contract with credit cards? And why didn't Orange County, CA have to "ante up" in 1994?

9/19/2011 11:01:46 PM

^ I see what you're trying to say, but you can't ignore the fact that filing for bankruptcy is not an easy thing to recover from at all (dur)

9/19/2011 11:12:02 PM

I'd like to see this go through if we could make it into a reality game show.

Anyone who has student loan debt can try-out for the show. Cameras follow you around and make sure you're not a lazy schmuck. Each week there would be contests, eliminations, and opportunities for bonuses. Then in the end, the viewers get to vote for who they deem worthy. That person gets all their student loan debts erased and has to write a thank-you note to each person who voted. Might as well try to teach some manners too...

9/19/2011 11:53:57 PM

Quote :

"I don't know why the full amount should be shackled to those people forever"

They agreed to pay the full amount back when they signed the contract accepting said money to begin with. Whatever reason/excuse they have for not paying/being able to pay the money back is a personal issue and irrelevant to the matter at hand. They still owe the money and should be obligated to pay it. That's what's great about this country, we're given freedom to make decisions and take risks, however it's apparant that the majority of people can't handle the responsibility that comes with freedom. This is why stupid laws "protecting people from themselves" exist. I'm all for being compassionate, however there is a time and place for compassion. This is not one of those times, especially when the economic survival of an entire country (and in a global economy, foreign economies) are at risk. We need to stop looking at how we can save the average American and instead look at how we are going to save this country.


All this does is shift the debt from the individual to the government. Shifting debt around doesn't do anything because in the end, that money is still missing.


Why is the concept of "If you borrow money from a lender, you must repay it back" so hard to understand?

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 12:33 AM. Reason : .]

9/20/2011 12:25:13 AM

If you save the average American you save the country bro

Too bad we aren't going to have a middle class in 20 years

9/20/2011 12:38:43 AM

Robin hood is a fucked up children's story. Rob from the rich to give to the poor...

Moral of the story, stealing is okay,

9/20/2011 12:50:22 AM

Alright well if you're citing Robin Hood as an argument against... progressive taxation? I don't even know what to say. Hope you're on top of the pile when America becomes the Randian Libertopia you people dream of (protip: you won't be)

9/20/2011 1:06:46 AM

Hiro: Yes, actually NCSU is incredibly cheap both in state and out of state. Even when I was in school, NCSU was for instance 1/3 the price of U. Michigan, U. Washington, or CalTech. It was about 1/10th the price of Stanford, MIT, Harvard ,Yale or Princeton. When I went back for graduate school, I chose NCSU in no small part because of how affordable it was. I would have spent at least another 100,000 dollars to go to Stanford for the same graduate program.

Geppetto: I'm an idiot? Let me lay the smackdown for you.

Quote :

" These are only valid options for those who have never been employed and do not have unemployment insurance as an option. Why would someone give up the time they have available to commit to a job search and learn a new skill to work mowing grass or bagging groceries only to earn less? To me, it doesn't sound like a really efficient use of time and resources. Furthermore taking those jobs restricts unskilled labor from moving into those jobs, making the true unemployment situation worse. "

Because you DO learn new skills at ANY of these jobs. Your statement above is exactly my point. People feel ENTITLED as a result of a college degree, that somehow blue collar jobs are beneath them and a waste of their time. I worked as a grocery stocker, I worked as a landscaper, and they provided me with life long job skills and perspective that are invaluable to me today.

And having been a full time job searcher, I agree with you in the short term. But if you can't land a job in 6-8 weeks of searching, it's time to stop sucking on the gov't teet and start earning a living while you continue your search.

Again I will say, if you are told you were "overqualified" for a position, it's because you are being LAZY in applying. You should tailor your resume for EVERY job you apply for, to make sure it puts you in the best possible light for THAT JOB. Doesn't matter if a dish washer or a CEO position.

It's just more bullshit entitled excuses saying that taking an open job makes it worse for someone else. If someone else had the job, it wouldn't be open. There is a GLUT of service job openings, and no one to fill them. Why do you think illegal immigration is so large? Because there are TONS of jobs available, and no one willing to do them.

Quote :

" All that aside...aren't you from an affluent family in Greensboro or some shit? I really don't believe that you had loans in the first place. I think you really just wanted the opportunity to state that you graduated a semester early with working (not really that impressive) and pat yourself on the back some more. "

No, I'm not. I make almost double what my parents do. I never got a dime from my parents after my 18th birthday (I never asked either). I didn't have loans in the first place, because I WORKED MY ASS OFF to pay for my education in full, up front. How many college students write their own tuition checks every semester? Because this guy did.

And fuck you, it is impressive. I am incredibly proud of myself that I paid my own way through school, graduated with a decent GPA early, and got out early. I actually put on my resume for several years that I funded my own education and was debt free out of school.

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 1:23 AM. Reason : .]

9/20/2011 1:20:46 AM

Let me clarify by my definition of "cheap." $30k is a LOT of money, regardless of the comparison. Our society demands the minimum of an undergrad degree in the majority of the sectors of employment and $30k is crazy. A friend of mine graduated and he totalled his expenses including books, meal plan, and on campus dorm expenses at roughly $8k when he graduated in 1992.

Here's a list of tuition rates over the years...
http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/upa/otherdata/general/tuitionhist.html

The increases are rediculous (way above infaltion rates). Yes, NCSU tuition is more affordable than many other places, but that is not to be confused with that fact that $30k for a 4 year education is "cheap." The education bubble has gotten out of hand and needs to end and if the government stopped giving loan handouts to students, this would help. Demand for college education is high because anyone can "afford" it. Demand goes up, prices for tuition go up everywhere. This doesn't slow demand down though because students continue with their loans, which fuels the tuition increases at colleges and universities even more.

The status quo is that you need an education to get a good paying job. Not necessarily so, but young adults sign up with these loans thinking that this is "normal" and what is necessary to be successful. This hurts the government and the students. Meanwhile, those at the University profit.

^I totally agree with neon here. I'm impressed man. That's what responsibility is about right there. It appears I'm following the same path through life, with a few twist It IS hard to work and I can totally vouch for that.



Progressive taxation is not fair. That's another topic for discussion, not really relevant at the moment to the OP. Oh, and if you don't dream, it can never be. That's what goals are all about.

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 2:49 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 2:49 AM. Reason : .]

9/20/2011 2:39:26 AM

Damn, tuition has more than doubled since my freshman year (01-02)

Pretty sad

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 7:38 AM. Reason : lol @ noen's resume. What a fucking chump this guy is.]

9/20/2011 7:37:09 AM

lol @ folks using the term "fair"

it's a completely subjective term and it weakens one's argument to use it

"it's only fair for people to pay back the money they borrowed" and "it's only fair for people who borrow money to get free hookers and blow every friday night" are both equally correct

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 8:16 AM. Reason : .]

9/20/2011 8:14:44 AM

Quote :

"I see what you're trying to say, but you can't ignore the fact that filing for bankruptcy is not an easy thing to recover from at all"

It takes about seven years to recover from bankruptcy. If you can't pay your student loans and can't file for bankruptcy against them, then you're stuck with that forever.

Quote :

"Again I will say, if you are told you were "overqualified" for a position, it's because you are being LAZY in applying. You should tailor your resume for EVERY job you apply for, to make sure it puts you in the best possible light for THAT JOB. Doesn't matter if a dish washer or a CEO position."

You obviously don't know much about how HR works. Back when I worked in an HR department I saw many a resume thrown out over dumb shit, even if the person was a good candidate for the position.

[Edited on September 20, 2011 at 8:31 AM. Reason : a]

9/20/2011 8:25:36 AM