I think it's great he's looking for a church to attend. Personally I think Christian's (in the truest form - follower's of Christ) are some of the most accepting individuals in the world, just as Jesus was. Those who are judgmental do so out of pride, fear, or misunderstanding. But you have to understand that to ignore sin would go against everything Christian's believe in.

Doesn't matter if you believe at first or not, I hope you find the right church, that they accept you for who you are, and that over time you'll see God's love for you and understand that sin is ultimately what separates you from God.

Church isn't just for Christian's. I'd say more often than not, most Christian's came to knowing God by going to church.

The key is understanding that full acceptance doesn't mean full endorsement of sin, and that you may never have the same relationship that Christians have with each other until you fully believe what they believe and enter into the same relationship with God that's free for all to have.

11/16/2011 6:49:21 PM

Can we get the UU thread bumped?

11/16/2011 7:06:33 PM

I'd like to see the nature of church change. Instead of people throwing 10%+ of their income into a nice, comfortable, air-conditioned building (as well as wages for the employees responsible for organizing the whole thing), how about everyone do some actual work for the community each Sunday? How about follow the real lessons of Jesus, rather than paying lip service to his teachings while still engaging in the exact kind of self-serving behavior that he railed against in the Bible?

And, yes, I'm quite aware that a percentage of church revenue goes to good causes. I'm saying...make 100% of it go to good causes. Nowhere in the bible does it say for all the Christians to gather in one place every Sunday and make themselves feel good. You know what the Bible does say? Sell all of your possessions, give the money to the poor, and follow Jesus. Somehow, I don't think amassing wealth in your affluent, suburban community fits the bill.

[Edited on November 16, 2011 at 7:17 PM. Reason : ]

11/16/2011 7:14:02 PM

^true dat.

seriously though there are churches that try real hard at that... and in today's society buildings are needed to a degree to host the large numbers that want to gather to worship as well as to provide places for ministry to be hosted at..... i know our church is open 24/7/365 for the community to use as a community center and for various events to be hosted at... not just church-sponsored events. it's well understood in our congregation that the church building is God's and not ours, should be open for all to use. our next buiding we're moving into is going to be a warehouse most likely.... no organs, no fancy pews or seats, no fancy light show or concert like worship, just a larger space for us to worship in.

Quote :

"make 100% of it go to good causes"

our church is trying to do just that. in saving for our next facility we want to have all the funds up front, about $4M, no loans, no "building campaign", then it would just be O&M costs

[Edited on November 16, 2011 at 8:32 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2011 8:31:01 PM

Quote :

"Church isn't just for Christian's. I'd say more often than not, most Christian's came to knowing God by going to church."

Most christians "came to god" because it's what their parents taught them. Do I need to go into a sacred building to be able to see your God? What if you just haven't walked into the right mosque or temple?

Agreed with TheDuke on UU. lol

As for the "atheist" espousing the benefits of mysticism:


[Edited on November 16, 2011 at 10:48 PM. Reason : img]

11/16/2011 10:48:34 PM

Quote :

"As for the "atheist" espousing the benefits of mysticism: "

I don't think he's espousing the benefits of mysticism, i think he's espousing the benefits of being part of a stable social group.

This type of thought process is only going to grow too in our society, as the idea of "mysticism" fades, as it has been doing for the past several decades in the US.

Lots of hot girls go to church, you can take your kids there, you can make contacts from your local area, and if your house burns down you have an instant source of support.

Are there others way to get this? Sure (i'd argue though that none of them are accessible as a some churches might be), but if someone wants to use a church, why not?

11/16/2011 10:55:43 PM

Because faith isn't a virtue and perpetuating this myth is wholly damaging to the progress of rational thought in our species.

It's a social club wrapped in non-rational baggage that can't keep its nonsense to itself.

Quote :

" Lots of hot girls go to church, you can take your kids there"

Get some tail and indoctrinate your children with bigotted nonsense at the same time? Sign me up!

11/16/2011 11:16:31 PM

Quote :

"Because faith isn't a virtue and perpetuating this myth is wholly damaging to the progress of rational thought in our species. It's a social club wrapped in non-rational baggage that can't keep its nonsense to itself. "

Yeah, but i think solinari's goal is finding a place that doesn't really get caught up in the "non-rational" parts...

This IS possible.

Quote :

"Get some tail and indoctrinate your children with bigotted nonsense at the same time? Sign me up! "

I would wager it's a minority of "church girls" that actually fall on the nutty Jesus-freak side of the spectrum.

11/16/2011 11:22:48 PM

I am still trying to figure out how gathering in a building means you are practicing mysticism.

11/17/2011 8:01:54 AM

Quote :

"Lots of hot girls go to church, you can take your kids there, you can make contacts from your local area, and if your house burns down you have an instant source of support. Are there others way to get this? Sure (i'd argue though that none of them are accessible as a some churches might be), but if someone wants to use a church, why not?"

True. And let's face it, how many people who say they are Christian in this society actually would be considered devout Christians? I would venture to guess a very large segment of the people that go to church go for the community aspect of it and Jesus is an afterthought. At least UU churches openly admit they're there for community more than religion

11/17/2011 8:30:04 AM

Quote :

"Because faith isn't a virtue and perpetuating this myth is wholly damaging to the progress of rational thought in our species. It's a social club wrapped in non-rational baggage that can't keep its nonsense to itself."

100x this.

Also, I've heard christians say it takes more faith to be an atheist, but if faith is a virtue (like they claim) then atheists must be more virtuous.

Though hot Church girls are more likely to blow you and take it up the pooper to preserve their "virginity"

11/17/2011 8:41:33 AM

hey does anyone know of a gym that doesn't have any actual workout equipment?

11/17/2011 8:54:29 AM

Quote :

"Also, I've heard christians say it takes more faith to be an atheist"

Not that I'd like to go into it, but I feel the need to debunk this horseshit whenever it's repeated. All claims must be supported by reason and evidence in order to be justfiably believable. All atheism is is not accepting theistic claims on this ground. It requires as much faith as not believing in leprechauns.

My comment about mysticism was in response to Solinari's this:

Quote :

"Also, in my opinion, there is an intangible benefit that comes from mysticism. There are other religions that probably have more powerful mystic symbols and practices, but christianity is the only one that has a personal signficance to me, since it is what I was raised with, and is the specific religion that our society is based on."

There is absolutely no benefit to mysticism. In the history of this world, nothing has ever been made more clear or more definite by positing a supernatural explanation. No question has ever been answered, nothing has ever been truly explained by mysticism. Fortune tellers are never right because of their "powers". They're only "right" the small percentage of a time anyone guessing randomly (or helped by mundane tricks) would be right.

It's a terrible thing that takes advantage of gullible people.

11/17/2011 11:20:26 AM

Quote :

"Personally I think Christian's (in the truest form - follower's of Christ) are some of the most accepting individuals in the world, just as Jesus was. "

I would agree with this. While I know or have been acquainted with surely thousands of Christians, I can count on one hand those whom I would consider followers of Christ. I'm agnostic, belief in the presence or absence of any god bears no relevance to my life apart from the occasional discussion thereof. I consider myself very accepting and non-judgmental, but I have met a few people that completely humbled and inspired me with their pure benevolence and love for all mankind.

The funny thing about each of these people is that not one of them ever suggested to me, subtly or explicitly, that anything I was doing was wrong or that I should change to live the way God would have us. They just exhibited, and indeed were, everything that the 99% of Christians preach without saying a word. It wasn't till then that I understood what Christianity is supposed to be, and I stopped thinking it was a wholly ridiculous concept. These are the Christians that I can not only stand to hang out with at length but actually talk religion with. They are more interested in you and why you are who you are (or why "God made you who you are") than trying to suggest you behave in any other manner. In this way, I am much more apt to consider their way of life.

I don't believe that belief in god or following Christianity is in any way necessary to being this kind of person, but it does make me want to give people that call themselves "Christian" the benefit of the doubt now. It's sad that my hopes are almost always dashed and the person turns out to be another Sunday's Best bible-thumping regurgitor

[Edited on November 17, 2011 at 12:16 PM. Reason : asdf]

11/17/2011 12:12:32 PM

How do you know how Christianity is supposed to be?

11/17/2011 12:25:09 PM

By virtue of what it ain't

11/17/2011 12:52:47 PM

I don't know this Disc_Stu character...but I agree with everything he has said in this thread.

11/17/2011 12:56:19 PM

Quote :

"By virtue of what it ain't"

Well that explains it!

The real answer is you don't. No one does. Every Christian (and apparently agnostics that have an opinion on the matter for unknown reasons) that says they do is lying. They may believe it really hard, but belief isn't knowledge.

Maybe Biblical literalism is how Christianity is supposed to be practiced. At least they have something tangible to refer to their reasoning why they believe so.

11/17/2011 1:02:09 PM

you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. All he's saying is that all Christians aren't the stereotype bible-thumping Christians a lot of people make them out to be.

11/17/2011 1:07:52 PM

Quote :

"There is absolutely no benefit to mysticism."

Well, now that's a bold thing to say. I guess it really depends on how you define benefit. You went on to describe a bunch of reasons why mysticism had no utilitarian benefit. I would agree with you on that.

11/17/2011 1:20:52 PM

Quote :

"hey does anyone know of a gym that doesn't have any actual workout equipment?"

Worth repeating.

11/17/2011 2:11:46 PM

It's actually a very good description of what I'm looking for. I don't actually believe in god so I don't want to subject myself to the drama that accompanies fundamentalist hellfire teaching. But, I like the idea of going to church so that's exactly what I'm looking for - a gym that doesn't actually require me to workout.

Although that sounds ludicrous to someone who truly believes in god, its not that far fetched if you're looking at it from a secular perspective.

Of course, there will always be those bitter atheists who can't fathom why anyone would want to even so much as get near religious symbolism.

[Edited on November 17, 2011 at 3:11 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2011 3:09:20 PM

^i don't think it has anything to do with bitter more than it seems to be a logical disconnect. It's like the gym comment or saying I don't like art and I don't want to see art, but I want to hang out in the Louvre with people who love are and talk about how much they love art.

I don't think it means they are bitter if they are just confused as to why someone would want to do it. You've done a decent job of explaining yourself, but it still makes no sense. Saying they are bitter sounds like the "judgement" you are hoping to avoid in church.

I know you said you wanted to get back to your roots and that is the part that makes sense. Like if your grandfather died and he always smoked cigars and now when you smell cigar smoke you are treated to a profound sense of nostalgia and you remember him and it makes you smile. But to want social benefits and mysticism is where you lose people.

[Edited on November 17, 2011 at 3:23 PM. Reason : way you were raised]

11/17/2011 3:21:15 PM

Just because I can't draw and just because I don't want to draw doesn't mean I should be kept out of art galleries.

If you view religion as a cultural experience, it makes total sense to go to a liberal non-judgemental church.

I just threw out the bitter atheist statement to preemptively defend against the d357r0y3r and disco_stu types who are going to respond with some tired polemic against any value in religion, bla bla bla.

[Edited on November 17, 2011 at 3:34 PM. Reason : ]

11/17/2011 3:31:10 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it means they are bitter if they are just confused as to why someone would want to do it. You've done a decent job of explaining yourself, but it still makes no sense. Saying they are bitter sounds like the "judgement" you are hoping to avoid in church."

E
X
A
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11/17/2011 3:39:17 PM

Try explaining, in a way that makes sense, why you are drawn to a particular painting or why you like a specific genre of music.

11/17/2011 3:43:50 PM

Quote :

"you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. All he's saying is that all Christians aren't the stereotype bible-thumping Christians a lot of people make them out to be."

yep

with the added point that I wish there were less of the thumpers and more of the Christians


Not that it really makes a difference to me, I suppose. I just enjoy people and their individual passions, talents, and genius, when they're real enough with themselves to realize them. So many folks are mired in delusion, myself included no doubt

11/17/2011 5:03:12 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm

Dawkins: I'm a cultural Christian

11/17/2011 6:11:19 PM

Quote :

"It's a church, for Christ's sake!"

This statement was vastly under appreciated.

Liberal theology, focused more on the 'narrative' of Jesus life and enacting positive social change based on biblical principles, sounds like the Emerging Church, to me. (Read up on Postmodern Christianity, Non-dogmatic theology, etc.) Mars Hill (Rob Bell's church) was mentioned earlier, is an offshoot of said group.

There's been a pretty significant stink among evangelicals over Rob Bell's recent book, presenting alternate views on Hell, and opening up the minds of God-fearing Christian folk to the possibility of Universal Reconciliation.

I can't name, off the top of my head, that there are or aren't any such churches in the Raleigh area, but what you're talking about isn't entirely unheard of, and you should be able to find it if you know what to look for.

Best of luck on your journey, and hope you find what it is you're actually looking for.

11/17/2011 11:24:14 PM

You should try hashing with Sir Walter's Hash House Harriers. They meet every Sunday, sing 'sermons' and drink beer. It's very social and they don't mention Hell. You also get some exercise out of it.

[Edited on November 18, 2011 at 1:05 AM. Reason : You may even get laid. ]

11/18/2011 1:04:05 AM

http://www.lifepointechurch.com/

Pretty much all these people do is work to socially connect you with people inside the church.

11/18/2011 11:26:04 PM

there are a lot of people that go to church for the social benefits. i got this vibe while going to an edenton st UMC bible study. a lot of "shakin hands and kissin babies."

why are you worried about what the church thinks and talks about if you are mainly just interested in its social aspects? why don't you figure out the demographic you are trying to connect with and find out the churches that appeal to those folks?

i would compare this to a gold digger. she cares nothing about the old man, tunes him out when he talks, plays around with his blood force-filled wang a few times a month(usually to try and get pregnant), and collects after death/divorce.

just a thought

11/19/2011 9:49:02 PM