Quote :

"How do you measure the dosage? How do you control how much of this chemical one consumes?"

how many litres of water that contains non-detect amounts of arsenic do i need to drink to exceed the MCL of arsenic? could you give me a ballpark, I want to make sure I'm not exceeding it.

4/15/2013 12:18:23 PM

4/15/2013 12:22:28 PM

Dtownral - why are you trying to justify this policy by finding ways to make it OK? Methinks you are trying to make yourself feel better about the deception (which I admit is painful).

If the shit shouldn't be added in the first place, why are you making it ok by saying it's "under the level" that the "authorities" say are ok. Or "Arsenic is in an apple" so that makes the policy alright? The CDC recommended in 2011 to lower the level from 1.0 to .7 ppm. Why did they do that? Because the science is pointing to this not being any benefit whatsoever. In my opinion it should be ended, if that's the case, not nebulously lowered to the "optimal" level. If the original level wasn't optimal, why do you believe them that the new level is?

Water is water - if there's no real benefit to it, why spend over 100k per year buying it?

4/15/2013 12:22:51 PM

Quote :

""How do you measure the dosage? How do you control how much of this chemical one consumes?""

They have feed units that control the flow of the additives. Not to mention daily testing and feedback.

You will die from overhydration before the flouride or arsenic get to you. The benefit to the general public far outweighs the possible negatives for a few people.

4/15/2013 12:24:12 PM

Wolfmarsh -

Yes. They equally distribute the chemical into the water. They are very good at this. But how do you control how much is distributed into our body?

Would a runner who drinks lots of water not receive more of the chemical than someone who does not run?

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason : Addition]

4/15/2013 12:25:27 PM

Quote :

"But how do you control how much water one drinks?"

I think I answered that.

Quote :

"You will die from overhydration before the flouride or arsenic get to you. The benefit to the general public far outweighs the possible negatives for a few people. "

Continuously drinking gallons of water is not the same as overdosing on pills.

4/15/2013 12:27:54 PM

Quote :

"Would a runner who drinks lots of water not receive more of the chemical than someone who does not run? "

Do you have this vision of people drinking water filled with chemicals, but they only output pure water, building up all of these dangerous chemicals in their body?

You should specifically research the absorption and metabolism of the chemicals you are so pissed off about, as well as what it would take for someone to drink enough water at 0.7ppm flouride to even amount to something dangerous.

4/15/2013 12:32:04 PM

Quote :

"In any case, we already have dozens of people attending the fluoride free meetup and I have already gotten the attention of local media, so we will see in due time who is the crackpot and who is not."

FYI, I can't help but cringe at your use of language and choice of phrasing. This is a topic that has been debated since the 1940s. The original arguments against it were 'Red Scare' based. This isn't new despite how you tried to word your starting thesis in the beginning of the thread. Anybody with a grade school education knows about this topic. The "Alert the media!!!" grandstanding isn't helping your case. The way your present your ideas stinks of bad politics and scare tactics, and followers that fall for these methods are not worth having even if your case has merit.

And we'll see who the 'crackpot' is? People in the past with similar arguments were dismissed as crackpots. Where is the acknowledgement of this in your topic? What makes you different than them? How is this devious plot by the governments+waste disposal groups+dental association (what a diverse group!) to dispose of dangerous chemicals not sound any crazier than a 'Red Scare' argument? The 'Red Scare' argument actually sounds more plausible.

Seriously, this sounds like a 1980's Cobra plot from GI-JOE.

4/15/2013 12:32:59 PM

Quote :

"If the shit shouldn't be added in the first place, why are you making it ok by saying it's "under the level" that the "authorities" say are ok. Or "Arsenic is in an apple" so that makes the policy alright? The CDC recommended in 2011 to lower the level from 1.0 to .7 ppm. Why did they do that? Because the science is pointing to this not being any benefit whatsoever. In my opinion it should be ended, if that's the case, not nebulously lowered to the "optimal" level. If the original level wasn't optimal, why do you believe them that the new level is?"

You're missing the point. Arsenic is naturally occurring in water. They don't set a safe level, then add arsenic UP to that level. The safe arsenic level set by "authorities" is a trigger when something is wrong, not a recommended dosage.

And science in 2011 is better than science in 1957. It's not arbitrary.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that water is by default clean, and we humans pollute it.

Water by default is very dirty, and we humans have greatly extended our lifespans by cleaning it up.

There's probably room for improvement, but alarmist, paranoid, nutty rants about how fertilizer companies are teaming up with government to poison us all aren't in any way an aid to this process.

4/15/2013 12:34:27 PM

Quote :

"Or "Arsenic is in an apple" so that makes the policy alright?"

the apple analogy is to show that they are not "adding arsenic" to the water unless I am "giving you arsenic" when i give you an apple to eat. its one of the common contaminants of the production of HFS from phosphate ore and the NSF standard is based on studies that show that the levels do not contribute to measurable levels of arsenic in the drinking water. This is supported locally by the fact that Raleigh has non-detect levels of arsenic in the drinking water. (if you have a private well in NC, you might be >8 µg/L of arsenic though)

tl;dr
when you say that they are adding arsenic to the drinking water, and say this on your website and in public city council meetings, you are using fear-mongering to promote your agenda. they are not adding arsenic to your drinking water, arsenic levels in Raleigh drinking water are non-detect.

4/15/2013 12:34:50 PM

Dr. Mercola's holistic, alternative medicine, all-natural diet is exposing you to exponentially more arsenic than the City of Raleigh drinking water is.

4/15/2013 12:37:00 PM

Why do you keep bringing up Dr. Mercola as if I even mentioned him?

4/15/2013 12:44:04 PM

because he wrote the article that you cited and is responsible for some of the information you are using. you brought Dr. Mercola into the conversation, not me. all i did was point out that he doesn't believe in vaccinations, thinks AIDS is fake, and is a proponent of a alternative medicine, holistic lifestyle and diet that will expose you to more arsenic than the water you are concerned about.

4/15/2013 12:50:37 PM

Were any of the things he wrote about Fluoride un true?

4/15/2013 12:51:19 PM

mainly the first comment that i made after you posted that, we are in the "low-flouride" category of the studies he cites

so do you understand now that arsenic is not in your drinking water?

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

4/15/2013 12:52:54 PM

If high fluoridated areas = bad

how does low fluoridated areas = good?

It's not just arsenic. Fluoride is an umbrella term for many additives, one of which is arsenic & lead.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:57 PM. Reason : edit]

4/15/2013 12:54:01 PM

I just came here to laugh

4/15/2013 12:54:37 PM

^^ how do i start to explain how that logic doesn't follow


If high Vitamin A is bad, why is some Vitamin A good? If high Iron levels are bad, why is some Iron good? If drinking too much water very quickly is bad, how is drinking any water good? etc...

4/15/2013 12:57:23 PM

^^^
The same way that you can't live with no iron in your blood, you need some iron.

But if you put too much iron in your blood, you will get sick and eventually die.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 12:58 PM. Reason : ]

4/15/2013 12:58:13 PM

Quote :

"so do you understand now that arsenic is not in your drinking water?"

4/15/2013 12:58:19 PM

Quote :

"If high fluoridated areas = bad how does low fluoridated areas = good?"

That may be the worst argument yet. There's truth the saying "too much of a good thing"
You can get toxicity levels from almost all vitamins and minerals required for bodily functions, including oxygen.

Just because too much Fluoride is bad doesn't mean small doses are. Like dtownral pointed out before, arsenic is everywhere in our environment and we consume it daily in fruits and vegetables, yet no one is keeling over from Arsenic poisoning because they ate a salad for lunch.

4/15/2013 1:02:24 PM

A little off topic, and I know most people are aware of it, but if you haven't seen Stanley Kubrik's 1964 "Dr. Strangelove", you should. It's all about the spread of communism and flouridation and how to stop worrying and love the bomb.

Quote :

"I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."

Quote :

"A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works."

4/15/2013 1:04:59 PM

Many of you here read with the intent to reply

Not the intent to understand.


Those of you who don't care, or simply want to ease your anxious minds from discovering the totality of what has been done - DON'T COUNT. - do you really think you're going to turn me around 180 degrees? Me and others all around this country have been at this for years and the science is supporting US, NOT YOU.

I'm not posting here to convince those of you who don't care because YOU DON'T COUNT. The people who care, want to be informed, want to understand, THEY COUNT and I am writing for them because I know they are reading.

So if you don't care, want to support the city purchasing a cocktail of undesirables under the umbrella term Fluoride & adding it to your water, cool! Just get out of my way. I'll be moving you out of the way anyhow.

4/15/2013 1:10:07 PM

why don't you respond to the questons that are being asked of you? it seems that you've made up your mind and refuse to try to understand the countless arguments against your conspiracy theory.

4/15/2013 1:11:35 PM

^^ I didn't read your post I just wanted to reply

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 1:12 PM. Reason : y]

4/15/2013 1:12:06 PM

TWW is so predictable.

4/15/2013 1:16:34 PM

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists

http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html

4/15/2013 1:17:08 PM

i made the mistake of giving reasonable responses in this thread that made it evident i was addressing his points. i should have stuck with fozzy.

4/15/2013 1:17:34 PM

Bullet -

My conspiracy theory? It's not a theory, and it's not even a conspiracy. It's just a fact of reality.

Second - I do not have the time to correct the thinking of everyone who wishes to post an anecdotal story of why they believe the state's rhetoric on this subject. I have made up my mind, because I have spent countless hours researching the subject and have come to my own rational conclusion on it, which is what I am portraying in all my presentations & appearances at the city council since December of 2011.

I'm not going to make anyone's mind - they need to do the research for themself (if they care, most don't). I didn't believe any one person until I read the information for myself, which is all I am asking others to do. For those who have looked into it in a rational way, I expect to see them at the fluoride free meeting as there is boundless evidence to support my claims. I'm not going to research for everyone, and hand feed them the precise answer to each point. The problem is that many (like dtownral) are trying to find one facet to argue, ignoring all others, to portray me as having an unlearned viewpoint. IN fact it is the opposite, whereby I take into consideration all scientific, legal and ethical problems presented by this practice and unify them to form the rather inert suggestion that the citizens should VOTE on this subject.

Even if you agree with fluoridation, does nobody here agree it is kind of suspect that the decision was made in 1957, before most of us were born, when black people could not even vote? Does nobody here find it upsetting that this is done Against our will? Does nobody here find legal issue with our city pretending to play doctor by administering an alleged preventative drug to our water supply?

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 1:25 PM. Reason : typo]

4/15/2013 1:21:25 PM

Quote :

"rational "

4/15/2013 1:27:56 PM

so are you going to stop mentioning arsenic on your website and when you address the city council now that you understand that it's not added intentionally and there are not measurable quantities in your drinking water?

or will you continue to use it to scare people

4/15/2013 1:28:19 PM

Quote :

"Even if you agree with fluoridation, does nobody here agree it is kind of suspect that the decision was made in 1957, before most of us were born, when black people could not even vote? Does nobody here find it upsetting that this is done Against our will? Does nobody here find legal issue with our city pretending to play doctor by administering an alleged preventative drug to our water supply?"

no.

4/15/2013 1:28:40 PM

Quote :

"My conspiracy theory? It's not a theory, and it's not even a conspiracy. It's just a fact of reality. "

The fact that you think all of your ideas and reasoning and "logic" are facts lends credence to the fact that it is totally a conspiracy theory. You still haven't even explained why the government would spend their money to help fertilizer manufacturers dispose of their waste.

Quote :

"Does nobody here find it upsetting that this is done Against our will?"

Most people who get upset about things the government is doing save their emotions for things that are much more damaging to individuals and society than miniscule amounts of flouride in our drinking water.

4/15/2013 1:28:56 PM

I'm not taking any advice from someone who eschews the Oxford Comma.

4/15/2013 1:30:01 PM

imagine this guy has strong teeth, and this is how i feel:

4/15/2013 1:32:02 PM

Quote :

"Even if you agree with fluoridation, does nobody here agree it is kind of suspect that the decision was made in 1957, before most of us was born, when black people could not even vote? Does nobody here find it upsetting that this is done Against our will? Does nobody here find legal issue with our city pretending to play doctor by administering an alleged preventative drug to our water supply?"

-Lots of decisions were made even before 1957. These decisions are routinely re-evaluated. Especially in times of a budget crisis.

-Really, playing the race card? It doesn't even remotely apply here. Guess I was right about you and political bullying.

-Lots of things are done against our will. Taxes (need to fund somehow)? Forcing car insurance (make people responsible in an enforcable manner)? Immunizations in order to go to school (group immunity). There are lots of things people wouldn't do if they weren't forced, and we'd be in a worse place without them. Maybe not these specific examples, so lets not turn them into a focal point.

-Pretending to play doctor based on research . . . by doctors? WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!111one

4/15/2013 1:32:05 PM

Quote :

"the decision was made in 1957, before most of us were born, when black people could not even vote"

I'm pretty sure black people could vote since 1869. If you're arguments are as sloppy as the "
countless hours" of reading shit on the internet, you may want to reexamine some of the points others have made in this thread.

4/15/2013 1:32:33 PM

4/15/2013 1:34:37 PM

the goldenrul:

Quote :

"so are you going to stop mentioning arsenic on your website and when you address the city council now that you understand that it's not added intentionally and there are not measurable quantities in your drinking water? or will you continue to use it to scare people?"

4/15/2013 1:36:39 PM

Quote :

"so are you going to stop mentioning arsenic on your website and when you address the city council now that you understand that it's not added intentionally and there are not measurable quantities in your drinking water? or will you continue to use it to scare people"

No, because it is added intentionally though Arsenic is not even the keystone portion of my argument. Secondly, there are measurable quantities in my drinking water - even though this isn't a keystone portion of my argument.

Are you going to look beyond arsenic now that I have elaborated that it is not a keystone part of my argument, and answer the litany of other ethical/legal/health issue i have quizzed you on which you have failed to address?

4/15/2013 1:39:46 PM

YESTERDAY I LEARNED THE WORD "KEYSTONE"

TODAY I WILL USE IT AS MUCH AS POSSINBLE

4/15/2013 1:42:18 PM

Quote :

"No, because it is added intentionally though Arsenic is not even the keystone portion of my argument. Secondly, there are measurable quantities in my drinking water - even though this isn't a keystone portion of my argument."

1) It's not added intentionally, HSF is added intentionally. No one is buying Arsenic to treat the water.
2) Where are you getting your water? What is the arsenic level? Can you provide a copy of the water quality report showing measurable levels of arsenic?

thanks

4/15/2013 1:44:40 PM

nevermind. arguments against this troll are pointless.

[Edited on April 15, 2013 at 1:49 PM. Reason : ]

4/15/2013 1:47:42 PM

maybe he is on well water, and that's why his water has arsenic?

4/15/2013 1:48:40 PM

^NO IT'S THE EVIL GOVERNMENT WHO WANTS TO INTENTIONALLY POISON THE TAXPAYERS WHO FUND THEM

4/15/2013 1:50:30 PM

Fun fact: arsenic occurs naturally in groundwater.

4/15/2013 1:51:48 PM

So is radon. It's also found in air.

4/15/2013 1:52:31 PM

Quote :

"In any case, we already have dozens of people attending the fluoride free meetup and I have already gotten the attention of local media, so we will see in due time who is the crackpot and who is not."

https://www.facebook.com/events/143704532475236/

Quote :

"Going (9) Maybe (4) Invited (3)"

Yes folks, the people truly are outraged. This aggression will not stand much longer.

4/15/2013 1:53:48 PM

Arsenic is a keystone ingredient in COCAINE LACED WITH DEWORMING AGENT!

4/15/2013 1:54:32 PM

Quote :

" 1) It's not added intentionally, HSF is added intentionally. No one is buying Arsenic to treat the water. 2) Where are you getting your water? What is the arsenic level? Can you provide a copy of the water quality report showing measurable levels of arsenic? thanks"

There is Arsenic in FSA, which is added intentionally. Do you really need me to explain that to you?

If I was to produce this report I highly doubt it would yield the result I want which is for dtownral to get his head out of his ass and actually think about this topic. Instead what I would expect is for dtownral to find another minute point to argue in attempts to discredit the totality of research which has clearly been done and presented on my website and others.

Such an effort to produce this report to a nobody on the wolf web would hardly be efficacious to our cause anyhow, and not worth my time.

If you don't actually give a shit why are you still talking? You don't even want to debate this in a legitimate way so it must be an ego thing.

4/15/2013 1:55:10 PM