hey what about condoms? should people on food stamps abstain from sex?

7/12/2013 4:11:57 PM

^i'd prefer they used contraception, but it isn't mandatory. kids cost money. having sex causes kids. it's not exactly an "accident" every time as much as it is a mistake. i'm not for misery, just for people being a bit more responsible when it comes to receiving food stamp assistance.

7/12/2013 4:15:26 PM

Obese people should be limited to produce, meat, and other fresh foods. No candy, no soda, no empty carbs. Oh, I'm sorry that it doesn't taste good, but that's the price you pay when you're sucking on the public teat.

As far as bang for your buck goes, subsidized abortions and contraception about as good as it gets. The people least able to afford abortions are the ones that probably need them. I know that'll never happen because of social conservatives would go insane, but god damn. I don't see any other way of restraining the growth of the uneducated masses.

7/12/2013 4:34:08 PM

When I, a conservative, say people on food stamps shouldn't waste money on beer, cigarettes, or whatever, liberals tell me even poor people have a right to be entertained, sure.

But then they turn around and say obese people should be regulated. Using the same thought process as above, poor people have a right to be unhealthy.

You can't have it both ways.

7/12/2013 5:02:11 PM

i doubt those are the same people. everyone who you think is a "liberal" doesn't think the same as every other "liberal".

(i'm pretty sure d357r0y3r would not appreciate you labeling him a liberal)

[Edited on July 12, 2013 at 5:08 PM. Reason : ]

7/12/2013 5:07:03 PM

yeah, he isn't the kind of liberal that gives a shit about the poor yanno

7/12/2013 5:46:10 PM

Quote :

"^^because they are currently purchasing goods currently considered to be illegal."

what does that have to do with SNAP?

7/12/2013 7:18:44 PM

People receiving federal assistance breaking federal law.

7/12/2013 8:08:08 PM

what does that have to do with SNAP?

7/12/2013 8:29:47 PM

Asking the same question over and over isn't going to get you what you want if you don't like the answer.

7/12/2013 8:33:53 PM

Quote :

"yeah, he isn't the kind of liberal that gives a shit about the poor yanno"

If you really cared about the poor, then you'd agree with my suggestion. Poor people are the most likely to be obese. There's a variety of reasons for that, but why should the state be paying for them to get even fatter? The state knows what's best for them, so it's pretty reasonable that they should micromanage their diets.

7/12/2013 8:37:23 PM

Quote :

"Asking the same question over and over isn't going to get you what you want if you don't like the answer."

well you could try answering it

[Edited on July 12, 2013 at 8:41 PM. Reason : you haven't answered it yet]

7/12/2013 8:41:26 PM

Ok. Well, I guess I don't understand the question then.

7/12/2013 8:44:14 PM

why does it matter, what does breaking laws have to do with snap? we've already eliminated the fraud argument and argument that drugs are bad, so why does it matter?

7/12/2013 8:52:17 PM

^^^^SNAP recipients actually have diets more like the rich than like poor people who aren't on SNAP (page 27): http://www.fns.usda.gov/ora/menu/Published/snap/FILES/Other/BuildingHealthyAmerica.pdf

7/12/2013 9:00:42 PM

Do people have the RIGHT to govornment assistance just because they are poor? If not, then I dont understand how it would be unconstitutional to drug test individuals who are applying for food stamps.

7/13/2013 1:40:01 AM

Because despite racist stereotypes, there is no empirical proof that poverty is caused by drug use. I'm sure all those people who lost their jobs during the "great recession" (and even The Great Depression) did so because they were stoned out of their minds.

7/13/2013 1:45:33 AM

^^basically this. Its more of a privilege than a right. I feel it should come with more requirements than "because I'm poor". At least add some rules and guidelines to follow so people can somewhat "earn" their assistance.

^it may not cause poverty, but it certainly doesn't help people escape it at all.

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 9:13 AM. Reason : ]

7/13/2013 9:10:57 AM

Quote :

"Quote : "So welfare, unemployment, medicare, medicaid, disability, farm subsidies that are not contingent on actual production, etc... should all require drug testing, right?" Don't forget research grants! And scholarships. And DOE loan guarantees. Every single person in the ARPA-E network. Oh, and also banks who are members of the federal reserve. They get to borrow at the overnight rate, which is about 10x lower than we get, enabled by the government. Drug test every one of them! And bikers. They use roads without paying the gasoline tax to build them. -------------- Oh, you want a brochure for the NC Science Museum? Not before you pee in that cup. [Edited on July 12, 2013 at 12:30 PM. Reason : it became a song in my mind. Want to ...? Pee in a cup. In a cuuuuup] "

I don't understand how money for food is any different than money for all the other things that probably cost way more than food stamps.

7/13/2013 9:57:07 AM

Quote :

"I feel it should come with more requirements than "because I'm poor"."

It does: If you aren't employed, you can't get on for more than 3 months and you have to take part in some government work program.

[Edited on July 14, 2013 at 9:15 AM. Reason : I used to think like that too; then I grew up.

7/14/2013 9:14:30 AM

If you have children you're exempt from the government work program requirement. Growing up has nothing to do with this topic. I used to try to insult people during discussions as well, then I grew up.

7/14/2013 10:06:13 AM

Quote :

" I don't see any other way of restraining the growth of the uneducated masses."

That's because the you can't restrain it.

The best strategy isn't eugenics like you and other conservatives are trying to shoe horn in, but to adapt and account for these people.

Humanity always has and always will have a segment of society that just wants to live their lives without thinking about or doing anything. To sooner the right can embrace this, the sooner they'll realize we're better off tolerating these people than demonizing them.

7/14/2013 10:15:40 AM

Quote :

"I feel it should come with more requirements than "because I'm poor"."

It should come with no requirements other than poverty.

The reason is that the program is self-policing. Just as virtue is its own reward, poverty is its own deterrent. Say that I think to myself "I should become poor, because then I will get something". If I am successful in executing this plan, then I will be poor - and worse off than before. afripino really hasn't addressed this fundamental underpinning of welfare, and as a result, has consistently assumed that "gaming" it is a valid thing. He has yet to even really express the observation that poverty is a deterrent.

Still, I fault Democrats for trying to help people, and creating bad policy as a result. The eligibility is dramatically more narrow than it should be. In other words, the program's definition of "poor" is fairly extreme poverty, and highly multifaceted. For instance, it's adjusted for income (more income means less handouts), and it terminates if you have too much liquid assets. These requirements perpetuate inter-generational poverty by turning off assistance when the poor improve their situation. The reason is that liberals are chickenshit that won't own up to the fact that they want wealth redistribution. If you admit to wanting wealth redistribution (like I do), then it's self-obvious that the fewer requirements for handouts, the better. Literally no requirement is ideal. Bill Gates should get the same handout as the rest of us, because it winds up to be a simple deduction on his taxes.

Quote :

"The best strategy isn't eugenics like you and other conservatives are trying to shoe horn in, but to adapt and account for these people."

Why don't rich people have more children? It's because they are subconsciously Malthusian. There are finite resources, and if you don't invest sufficiently in your children's ability to lay claim to those resources, you sentence them to lives of slavery. I don't want to adapt to that world - I want to prevent it from happening. Make immigration, visas, trade agreements, dependent on national birth rates. That'll level out world population real fast. Then we won't have endless cheap and exploitable labor. We'll also have a world that hangs on to a strand of human decency.

[Edited on July 14, 2013 at 11:59 AM. Reason : l]

7/14/2013 11:58:09 AM

Quote :

""I should become poor, because then I will get something". If I am successful in executing this plan, then I will be poor - and worse off than before."

That makes the assumption that you were not born into poverty and totally disregards complacency. I agree, being poor isn't something people strive for, but receiving a completely free means of survival with no required effort to continue receiving it is something people get used to and unfortunately their children get used to it as well. This is what keeps multiple generations of families on the government dime.

7/15/2013 2:31:15 PM

I'm fine with everything listed in the OP as long as the exact same policies are also applied to:

-Families of college students who receive FAFSA money

-The board and CEO of any company that receives government assistance

7/15/2013 2:35:51 PM

...

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 2:41 PM. Reason : nm, I got what you're saying.]

7/15/2013 2:40:12 PM

Quote :

"That makes the assumption that you were not born into poverty and totally disregards complacency. I agree, being poor isn't something people strive for, but receiving a completely free means of survival with no required effort to continue receiving it is something people get used to and unfortunately their children get used to it as well. This is what keeps multiple generations of families on the government dime."

And making life harder for them is sure to get them to succeed!

Quote :

"^ why not just the college student?"

Because you punished the entire family in your OP, so I figured it was only appropriate.

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 2:40 PM. Reason : ]

7/15/2013 2:40:23 PM

Also this is a fucking gem:

Quote :

"I'm black, so it can't be racist."

7/15/2013 2:41:30 PM

I don't think submitting to a drug test and getting your ID checked and helping your child with his / her homework is really making life "harder". I feel it is more bare-minimum requirement than anything.

^sorry you can't read sarcasm. are you new here?

^^ making it easier sure isn't helping either.

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 2:48 PM. Reason : ]

7/15/2013 2:45:57 PM

Quote :

"receiving a completely free means of survival with no required effort to continue receiving it"

What the fuck are you smoking, dude? Completely free? No effort? Welfare earners work shit jobs for shit pay and barely get by even with benefits. Or they have kids/parents to take care of and can't work. Or they're disabled and can't work. Meanwhile, you're likely sitting in an air conditioned office messing around on the internet, earning a much more comfortable lifestyle than they have.

Quote :

"something people get used to and unfortunately their children get used to it as well. This is what keeps multiple generations of families on the government dime."

Yes, this is reason that people are on the government dime. Not because minimum wage is abysmal in the US, and low-income occupations are integral to our society.

It's funny that conservatives say things like "Not everyone can have a college education. We need janitors as well." and then turn around and say welfare is not a necessity. According to Google, the average janitor pay is around $25,000. I'd love to see anyone raise a family on that.

7/15/2013 3:22:16 PM

dont raise a family.

7/15/2013 3:30:26 PM

don't raise a family. don't take care of elderly family members. don't get a debilitating injury or illness. don't have sex because you might get pregnant. don't get an abortion if you do.

work hard for your miniscule paycheck and die alone. it's the american way.

7/15/2013 3:39:31 PM

except for the abortion bit youve got it.

7/15/2013 3:41:35 PM

^this.

nobody is forcing people to have kids they can't afford. we all go through tough shit. it doesn't mean the government has an obligation to get them out of tough shit. people gamble away their money, people waste it on drugs, people buy dumb shit that doesn't give any return on investment, people have children they shouldn't have. people work jobs that pay low wages. people choose to stay in those jobs by not changing job fields. people do die alone. it's called life. you don't need to have a security blanket the whole time just because you are living it and shit hits the fan. you change your strategy and work on a solution.

7/15/2013 4:40:49 PM

Quote :

"it doesn't mean the government has an obligation to get them out of tough shit"

You're right. Even though society would collapse without blue collar workers, we shouldn't pay them a living wage or insure their well-being.

Basically you're saying that janitors, construction workers, factory workers, etc. don't deserve to live comfortably or have children because they don't work hard enough.



[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 5:03 PM. Reason : .]

7/15/2013 5:02:46 PM

Quote :

"because they don't work hard enough."

Correction, because the market value of their labor is not enough.

I mean, their fault for not competing for high value job responsibilities, amirite?

7/15/2013 5:10:21 PM

If everyone just tried harder, we would all have nice, high paying office jobs and life would be grand.

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

7/15/2013 5:12:37 PM

not everybody wants a nice high paying office job. and not all office jobs are nice or high paying. hard work is a constant though. you work hard, you get rewarded. you don't work hard, why should you get rewarded?

7/15/2013 5:27:25 PM

Because we're all unique and special snowflakes who deserve all that we desire.

7/15/2013 5:35:27 PM

Quote :

"you don't work hard, why should you get rewarded?"

Great question! I'm lazy as shit, and have been for all my life, but I make a good amount of money in a job that is fairly easy for me. Why? Because I was born into a supportive middle class family and I'm reasonably intelligent.

On the other hand, Joe Construction Worker is out putting shingles on a roof in 90 degree weather today. Guess it's because he doesn't work hard enough.

Look:

1. Our country depends on low-income earners to function.
2. Those low-income earners do not make enough money to feed themselves, raise a family, pay medical bills, etc.
3. Income distribution dictates that a certain % of people will fall under this category. Even if everyone started "working harder", we would still have the same % of low-income earners.

Given this, you are telling me that a large % of the population does not deserve to raise a family or live comfortably because the work that they do is not individually valuable enough. Go ahead and admit that and I'll be done here.

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ,]

7/15/2013 5:59:58 PM

Quote :

"Great question! I'm lazy as shit, and have been for all my life, but I make a good amount of money in a job that is fairly easy for me. Why? Because I was born into a supportive middle class family and I'm reasonably intelligent. chose not to be a construction worker / low wage earner / etc."

fixed that for you.

Some people don't deserve the jobs they have, but I'm not going to say you should get paid less just because you're a lazy fuckboy. Obviously somebody at your company / job / wherever you work believes the work you do is of the value at which you get paid. If you think you're getting overpaid, give some of the money back or renegotiate yourself to a lower salary. Perhaps you can just give the money directly to the janitor instead to level things out.

I'm not going to say Joe Construction Worker should get paid as much as Bob the Architect just because Joe is out in the sun all day. Joe Construction Worker can go to school and he can become Bob the Architect. There's a distinct difference in worth between an electrical engineer and an electrician. That's the beauty of hard work.

Quote :

"1. Our country depends on low-income earners to function."

False. Our country depends on everyone to function. I don't depend on the homeless to do my job.

Quote :

"2. Those low-income earners do not make enough money to feed themselves, raise a family, pay medical bills, etc."

Who is telling them to have kids? Believe it or not, kids cost money. Sure, you can have kids and not make any money, but guess what? You'll have to deal with the consequences of your choice to have kids. You don't have to stop having sex...cost of birth control < cost of kids.

Quote :

"3. Income distribution dictates that a certain % of people will fall under this category. Even if everyone started "working harder", we would still have the same % of low-income earners."

I'm not advocating for making everything equal. Low-income earners will always exist as long as there are low skilled jobs. Are you saying working harder doesn't help you earn money? Ok...just stop going to work then. I'll continue to do my job and we'll see who gets ahead and "lives comfortably".

Also, "living comfortably" could mean anything. I could live comfortably on $12,000 a year if I was single and didn't plan on having children.

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 6:28 PM. Reason : ]

7/15/2013 6:21:27 PM

Quote :

"Also, "living comfortably" could mean anything. I could live comfortably on $12,000 a year if I was single and didn't plan on having children."

and lived in the boondocks

7/15/2013 6:37:27 PM

^not everyone that lives in the boondocks is ashamed of where they live

7/15/2013 6:39:22 PM

Quote :

" I could live comfortably on $12,000 a year if I was single and didn't plan on having children. "

After tax? Before tax there is no way in hell.

Actually there probably isn't much tax on $12k. Still calling bullshit though.

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 7:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/15/2013 7:07:13 PM

Quote :

"That's because the you can't restrain it. The best strategy isn't eugenics like you and other conservatives are trying to shoe horn in, but to adapt and account for these people. Humanity always has and always will have a segment of society that just wants to live their lives without thinking about or doing anything. To sooner the right can embrace this, the sooner they'll realize we're better off tolerating these people than demonizing them."

I just want to note that I've been incorrectly labeled a liberal and a conservative on the same page. That's worth something.

As far as the part in bold, I have no clue what you're talking about. "The right" needs to embrace the people that don't want to think? Are you saying "the left" has already done that?

7/15/2013 8:03:07 PM

Uh, I can roof a house but it isn't my job.

There are people who also do yardwork (for example) which I consider to be an enjoyable hobby.

I seriously doubt however that these same folks can do my job.

They get paid less, they get the short end of the stick, because they do something that more/most people can do. It might require hard physical labor sure, but that in itself is not/does not require any special training.

I don't have a whole lot of respect for people who work in things daily that I would do for my grandma for free. Here's a roof, here's your house cleaned, here's trees trimmed, etc. No grandma I don't expect for you to pay me enough to raise a family, sorry.

/elitistifuckinghatedumbstrongpeopleiguess

7/15/2013 8:17:30 PM

Quote :

"Actually there probably isn't much tax on $12k. Still calling bullshit though. "

I could get a roommate and split rent and still live quite comfortably. Its not impossible. Not everyone needs 40K and a 4 bedroom house and a 2006+ year model car. I could live off pizza and Xbox and be quite comfortable.

7/15/2013 8:24:12 PM

hahah this mope thinks people choose to work low wage jobs

what a joke

7/15/2013 8:43:15 PM

^^ Does that include health insurance? Saving for retirement? What if that car breaks down? You'll be needing help in no time

[Edited on July 15, 2013 at 8:46 PM. Reason : .]

7/15/2013 8:45:52 PM

Quote :

"hahah this mope thinks people choose to work low wage jobs what a joke"

Hahaha, this mope thinks everyone enjoys education.

What a joke.

7/15/2013 8:58:20 PM