A fetus is attached by a chord which feeds it from the mother.

Its a tape worm which has the potential to remove itself and have sex with your mom.

11/1/2013 12:08:17 AM

So, it is your contention, then, that a tapeworm is also a body part?

11/1/2013 12:10:15 AM

Would it make you feel better if I called a fetus a parisite?

Because I can do that. But I bet you will still have your panties in a bunch.

11/1/2013 12:12:30 AM

That'd be a more intelligent argument than the notion that it's a body part, which you'll note, is what I specifically called you out on. Still overly simplistic, but not as abjectly and biologically false as calling it a body part.

11/1/2013 12:19:24 AM

Ok I'm glad we cleared up that over simplification which really doesn't matter.

11/1/2013 7:51:37 AM

Quote :

"Philosophically, how is a "maybe there's a life" different from "there's definitely a life"?"

Actually there's a chance that what you say is "definitely a life" will not make it to birth. What if two people who are extremely fertile have sex at her most fertile time of the month? There is a very high chance that there would be a life.

I realize this is a funny way to think about it, but I'm just trying to illustrate that it all comes down to a spiritual question. Are you robbing someone of a life if you abort? Are you robbing someone of a life if you use birth control?

Quote :

"One might suggest that simply emerging from a vagina is not the best dividing line for this thought experiment. Otherwise, you would be suggesting that abortion the day before birth is no different than 6 months before birth"

I'd suggest that post-birth abortion is no different, to some vague point, except we're conditioned socially/biologically to find it appalling. And it's the best dividing point anyways, because it's the point at which the baby is no longer attached to the mother.

Quote :

"If you go with a black and white analysis in a vacuum like that, sure. However, one might also ascribe some weight of immorality towards forcing a woman to carry a child of rape to term, thereby continuing the rape for at least another 9months. Really, you're dealing with shitty choices all around in that case."

It's not black and white, sure. But if I kill someone to spare myself some misery, it's still murder, right?

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 8:47 AM. Reason : ..]

11/1/2013 8:30:57 AM

Arguments about fetuses being persons is missing the forest for the trees.

The first question that needs to be asked: Is it morally sound to prevent a person from removing a foreign body from their own body on the basis of that foreign body's rights being most important?

Irrespective of that foreign body being a person, is it morally sound to tell someone they can't remove something that isn't their body from their body? I don't think that it is. If I were to transport a fully grown person inside of you and the only way you could get it out would kill him, would you be OK with me telling you that you cannot do so?

A person should have total control over what is and is not in their body and that's the fundamental right at question here.

11/1/2013 8:51:19 AM

e.g. the famous pianist example

11/1/2013 9:01:00 AM

Quote :

"Irrespective of that foreign body being a person, is it morally sound to tell someone they can't remove something that isn't their body from their body? I don't think that it is. If I were to transport a fully grown person inside of you and the only way you could get it out would kill him, would you be OK with me telling you that you cannot do so?"

burro has argued in the past that you're responsible for the fetus/human because you brought them into existence, regardless of whether or not it was an accident. "don't have sex if you don't want a baby"

rape seems to be the only exception

if you can accept that it isn't a person in the first place, all of this can be considered moot.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 9:06 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 9:05:21 AM

if that is someone's position, but they make an exception for rape, then their position is that pregnancy is punishment

11/1/2013 9:08:47 AM

Burro obviously hates women.

11/1/2013 9:13:32 AM

^^
basically. but i think they would prefer "forced responsibility"

11/1/2013 9:16:39 AM

rape pregnancy can have serious mental health consequences which are as valid as physical health consequences.

11/1/2013 9:40:53 AM

Quote :

"Arguments about fetuses being persons is missing the forest for the trees. The first question that needs to be asked: Is it morally sound to prevent a person from removing a foreign body from their own body on the basis of that foreign body's rights being most important? Irrespective of that foreign body being a person, is it morally sound to tell someone they can't remove something that isn't their body from their body? I don't think that it is. If I were to transport a fully grown person inside of you and the only way you could get it out would kill him, would you be OK with me telling you that you cannot do so? A person should have total control over what is and is not in their body and that's the fundamental right at question here."

if that foreign body was not a human then your point might be valid.

11/1/2013 9:46:48 AM

^^
regular pregnancy can, too, though

especially if you don't want to go through with it

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 9:47 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 9:47:04 AM

^^^if you believe that a fetus is a living person then how can you justify murder to ease someone's mental anguish?

or, alternately, if you believe that the mother's wishes sometimes outweigh the life of the child she is carrying, then why can that logic not apply to many more scenarios when terminating the pregnancy could reduce mental anguish.

do you see the problem with your point? it sidesteps the issue and doesn't really answer anything.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 9:48 AM. Reason : ^^^]

11/1/2013 9:48:19 AM

Quote :

"if that foreign body was not a human then your point might be valid."

Did you miss the point where I used a fully grown person as the foreign body?

11/1/2013 9:52:23 AM

Quote :

"^^ regular pregnancy can, too, though especially if you don't want to go through with it"

THIS THIS, A MILLION TIMES THIS

11/1/2013 9:53:05 AM

Quote :

"Did you miss the point where I used a fully grown person as the foreign body?"

i did and it made absolutely no sense.

11/1/2013 10:00:22 AM

So is your answer yes then? If you found yourself with a fully grown person inside you you'd be cool with society telling you that you can't get him out?

11/1/2013 10:04:04 AM

i'll answer your little strawman...

if i had a full grown human inside of me it would be an immediate threat to my own life. however, if they were able to remove it without killing it, i would prefer that option.

11/1/2013 10:07:57 AM

what if the full grown man was sewn to your back and you were able to live with him still there, however removing him would kill him. what if he was a famous person with important cultural significance?

11/1/2013 10:09:17 AM

what if it were Voldemort? what if it were Kuato?

11/1/2013 10:10:24 AM

Quote :

"regular pregnancy can, too, though especially if you don't want to go through with it"

would like to hear a response to this

11/1/2013 10:11:01 AM

^ It's a social experiment. Make most unplanned pregnancies go to term, like the old days. Then we'll see what happens.

11/1/2013 10:13:29 AM

Why don't we just start handing out free abortions to anyone who wants them for unplanned pregnancies.

Democrats will eventually shrink their voter base by attrition.

11/1/2013 10:15:46 AM

Quote :

"Why don't we just start handing out free abortions to anyone who wants them for unplanned pregnancies."

sounds great

11/1/2013 10:17:57 AM

Quote :

"what if it were Voldemort? what if it were Kuato?"

i think the host should be allowed to make that decision regardless

how about you?

11/1/2013 10:21:54 AM

In all seriousness though, I find the mental anguish argument interesting. I have known personally only 1 person who had an abortion, and she had it a very young, very impresionable age. Talk about mental anguish - she said she wished every day that she hadn't gone through with it. I wonder how many women out there who received an abortion, be it on their own accord, or forced upon them by a parent or boyfriend, regret they had ever made that decision.

11/1/2013 10:23:12 AM

Quote :

"Why don't we just start handing out free abortions to anyone who wants them for unplanned pregnancies. Democrats will eventually shrink their voter base by attrition."

you need to look up teen pregnancy statistics in red states an abstinence only education states, holmes

11/1/2013 10:23:16 AM

No way. Red states don't have abortions. They also don't have anyone on welfare. Only those immoral hand-out-wanting blue states have abortions and welfare mamas.

11/1/2013 10:25:38 AM

i wouldn't consider a normal, non-forced pregnancy mentally traumatic. an inconvenience? sure.

11/1/2013 10:25:48 AM

Is having to carry-out an unwanted, accidental pregnancy not "forced"?

11/1/2013 10:26:32 AM

Quote :

"i wouldn't consider a normal, non-forced pregnancy mentally traumatic. an inconvenience? sure."

post partum depression?

that's not all we're talking about, though. what about a forced pregnancy?

11/1/2013 10:27:29 AM

^^no, she was not forced to conceive.
^yeah. and stretch marks. gotta abort to prevent those too.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2013 10:28:24 AM

there it is

11/1/2013 10:29:05 AM

Quote :

"if i had a full grown human inside of me it would be an immediate threat to my own life. however, if they were able to remove it without killing it, i would prefer that option."

again, what if he was not a threat to your life?



[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason : ^yep, its the pregnancy is punishment argument]

11/1/2013 10:29:07 AM

What do you consider a forced pregnancy?

11/1/2013 10:29:59 AM

Quote :

"What do you consider a forced pregnancy?"

one where you are not allowed to abort

11/1/2013 10:30:51 AM

^wat? a forced pregnancy is one in which she was forced to conceive against her will.

(one in which a man rapes a woman against her will and she gets pregnant.)

Quote :

"^yep, its the pregnancy is punishment argument"

by what "logic" did you get that argument from any of the things i posted?

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:33 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2013 10:31:12 AM

and also one where she is not allowed to abort, any pregnancy where she is not allowed to make that choice herself

11/1/2013 10:32:57 AM

^^
no. abortion is an option. if you are not given that option, it is a forced pregnancy

imagine how traumatic it would be if you had an unwanted creature inside you, and were forced to carry it for 9 months and birth it?

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:35 AM. Reason : ..]

11/1/2013 10:33:58 AM

I'm confused why it matters how the conception occurred. If it's a human life you're protecting why does whether its conception was forced matter?

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:34 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 10:34:21 AM

Quote :

"by what "logic" did you get that argument from any of the things i posted?"

if you believe that abortion is wrong, but make an exception for rape, then its because you believe that pregnancy is punishment or a deserved burden. in simple language its slut shaming.

11/1/2013 10:35:34 AM

it's not just the human life. i don't deny the life and medical well being of the mother is an issue. I just deny that a normal pregnancy is a specific enough threat to warrant termination. the argument can be made that a rape-pregnancy IS a specific threat to a mother's health.

11/1/2013 10:37:28 AM

how is rape pregnancy a threat to health but accidental pregnancy is not? that's where your argument falls apart.

11/1/2013 10:38:36 AM

^^^that is incorrect

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:41 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2013 10:38:44 AM

Quote :

"it's not just the human life. i don't deny the life and medical well being of the mother is an issue. I just deny that a normal pregnancy is a specific enough threat to warrant termination. the argument can be made that a rape-pregnancy IS a specific threat to a mother's health."

Being forced to carry an an unwanted fetus in your body for 9 months, birth it, and then be responsible for it is not a threat to a mother's health?

The financial cost alone, not to mention the potential for harm to her body is substantial. And massive mental harm as well.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:41 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 10:41:05 AM

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 10:44 AM. Reason : eh, nm]

11/1/2013 10:43:18 AM

But you people completely ignore the potential mental harm from having the abortion. Shit even the plaintiffs (or defendants I don't feel like looking it up) from Roe v. Wade has regrets.

11/1/2013 10:47:56 AM