Quote :

"He has taken NIU to the BCS. I believe thats his ceiling."

And that's a fairly low ceiling. Sure it's an impressive looking W-L record but it was obtained by beating a bunch of sub .500 teams. It's like making the determination that a coach is good because he went 11-1 with ten NC States on his schedule.

12/4/2013 12:40:58 PM

Fair is foul and foul is fair!

12/4/2013 1:24:09 PM

nope. wasn't a 4 star recruit.



Did CSU turn on a red light when they signed him?

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 1:56 PM. Reason : ?]

12/4/2013 1:55:40 PM

Quote :

"Did CSU turn on a red light when they signed him?"

I'm not a fan of DD after this season but he cant be blamed for Pete Thomas lack of skills as his track record at Colorado state speaks for itself. I don't care what rivals say, Pete Thomas was by far the worst quarterback this year in ACC. Hell, I saw a ton of FCS quarterbacks that were MILES ahead of him. I'll trade that quarterback from Richmond for Thomas any day of the week.

12/4/2013 2:53:59 PM

He wasn't that terrible. He actually had small stretches where he looked decent. His main issue (along with Mitchell's) was that they couldn't put the ball in the endzone, even when they were in the red zone.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/conferences/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/completionPct/id/1/acc-conference

12/4/2013 3:01:48 PM

even if we would have put those chances away, we still couldnt stop a second team offense

12/4/2013 3:04:50 PM

shit, our defense looked stout against clemson. i still can't understand what happened to the team that showed up against them.

12/4/2013 3:09:44 PM

Rivals may have stuck 4 stars by his headshot, but he has never performed at a 4-star level. In fact, in 3 college seasons Thomas has never thrown more TDs than INTs. His best year was his freshman year where he got sacked 44 times during the season and he's done nothing but get worse since.

But please, keep touting his ridiculous Rivals rating like it should mean more than his actual performance does.

12/4/2013 3:26:41 PM

So can we at least give Tom O'Brien the credit he deserves for winning 5 games with Daniel Evans and Harrison Beck? He won 3 ACC games his first year with that combo at QB, and the previous coach went 3-9 with that same caliber player at QB.



I just find it funny that some people are arguing that Doeren needs 5 years to get us back to 7+ wins that we just experienced for 3 straight years so that he can then potentially takes us to the next level, as if to suggest that this program needs to be completely torn down and re-built from scratch.


We just had a coach who got us to that point (7+ wins a season) after inheriting a 3 win team. And we did not give him that same opportunity to reach the next level. We fired him instead. And now people are pretending that this program was in shambles and that a complete rebuild is in order, which is insane to me. This program was in decent shape. Not great, but certainly not the train wreck that it was during Amato's final years. Blaming this entire season on Pete Thomas is a very convenient way for some people to ignore some very troubling signs about the well being of this program.

Maybe he can turn it around. I'm definitely rooting for him. But Doeren burned a lot of his goodwill this season, and blaming it all on Thomas is a cop-out, which should be obvious to anyone who saw what a competent coaching staff can and did do with 2007 squad.


It boggles my mind that people want to somehow blame all of this years misfortune on O'Brien and then turn around and deny him respect that he deserves for lifting a nightmare program back to respectability. There seem to be two very different standards being applied to the respective coaches, and I don't understand why.

12/4/2013 3:42:18 PM

^ So did we blame this horrible season all on Pete Thomas or TOB. You contradict yourself within your own post.

There is a lot of blame to be given for this season:

1. TOB - for recruiting mediocre talent

2. DD - for awful coaching decisions and not getting more out of our players. And for the team getting worse as the season wore on.

3. Huxtable - why the fuck did we hire this guy?

4. Thomas and Mitchell - for not being very good QBs.

5. O-Line - for sucking more dick than Justin Beiber

etc...

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 3:56 PM. Reason : fg]

12/4/2013 3:55:20 PM

Quote :

"I just find it funny that some people are arguing that Doeren needs 5 years to get us back to 7+ wins "

Quote :

"But Doeren burned a lot of his goodwill this season, and blaming it all on Thomas is a cop-out"

Just keep on stringing these strawman up and beating them to shreds.

Quote :

"We just had a coach who got us to that point (7+ wins a season) after inheriting a 3 win team."

Weird, seems like you're missing a few season there. That statement is the fucking definition of cherry picking.

Quote :

"So did we blame this horrible season all on Pete Thomas or TOB. You contradict yourself within your own post. "

What do you expect? Have you not been following this idiot's posting in this thread? This dude is the GeniuSxBoY of Sports Talk.

12/4/2013 4:03:20 PM

A lot of people forget that TOB had a lot of QB's not work out or transfer in a short time frame.

Everett Proctor
Brian Taylor
Tyler Brosius
Russell Wilson

We survived until 2012, but it makes sense that it would eventually come back to bite us in the ass. It's no wonder we've been in such bad shape at the position. You know things aren't going right when you have 3 QB transfers on the roster at the same time. Meanwhile, another QB is leaving this offseason.

12/4/2013 4:12:17 PM

^^did you just learn that word, or something? You're not even using it correctly.

Many people have made similar comments a few pages ago that he needed 5 years to get back to 7+ wins consistently.

Quote :

"I don't think even 5 years will be long enough for Doeren"

HCH

Quote :

"I don't think even 5 years will be long enough for Doeren 99.999% of good coaches."

Quote :

"I'm talking about getting to a team that is winning 7+ games constantly. He's got nothing to work with. 5 years is the right amount of time."

Quote :

"I want to him improve from there. But to get there is going to take 5 years. TOB reached his peak at 7+ win seasons. DD can improve from there."

Jrb599


I don't even know what you're trying to get at, in all honesty.

Quote :

"Weird, seems like you're missing a few season there. That statement is the fucking definition of cherry picking."

The entire point of my argument was to demonstrate that O'Brien took a team that could only win 3 games the previous season, and built them up to a level that could consistently win 7. Honestly, I don't know how else to say that any more clearly.

Quote :

"So did we blame this horrible season all on Pete Thomas or TOB. You contradict yourself within your own post. "

Fair enough. Let me clarify. People seem to be blaming O'Brien while using Pete Thomas as an excuse for this seasons results.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 4:15 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 4:12:40 PM

Quote :

"Many people have made similar comments a few pages ago that he needed 5 years to get back to 7+ wins consistently. "

It took O'Brien 4 years to get there, a fact which you seem to have no recollection of. All we keep reading from you is how he went from 3-9 to 7+ wins.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 4:16 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 4:16:04 PM

Quote :

"It took O'Brien 4 years to get there, a fact which you seem to have no recollection of. All we keep reading from you is how he went from 3-9 to 7+ wins"

So, we fired a coach that took a 3 win team and made them a 7+ win team in 4 years....


....for a coach that needs 5 years to get 7+ wins a year?

12/4/2013 4:23:57 PM

Quote :

"So, we fired a coach that took a 3 win team and made them a 7+ win team in 4 years"

There ya go. Acceptance is the first step.

12/4/2013 4:27:19 PM

Welp.....hope that was enjoyable for you.

12/4/2013 4:31:49 PM

Quote :

"4. Thomas and Mitchell - for not being very good QBs."

We don't need a very good QB. We just need something slightly better than the wrong side of terrible. Below average would represent a significant step up.

12/4/2013 4:33:39 PM

Quote :

"Rivals may have stuck 4 stars by his headshot, but he has never performed at a 4-star level."

But all the recruits DD is bringing in are the ones that deserve stars. I understand now.

12/4/2013 4:39:41 PM

*strawman alert*

12/4/2013 4:44:30 PM

This thread should be fun to read in hindsight after a few years

12/4/2013 4:45:39 PM

Quote :

"We just had a coach who got us to that point (7+ wins a season) after inheriting a 3 win team"

7 wins against shit competition. The goal is to get 7+ wins against talented competition and win some championships.

TOB wasn't going to do that. It's also absolutely insane to assume that TOB was going to have us at 7 wins this season.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 5:35 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 5:31:11 PM

Quote :

"But all the recruits DD is bringing in are the ones that deserve stars."

Yeah good job trying to strawman there. It's almost as ridiculous as you and others holding up Pete Thomas as a reason DD should have done better this season.

Rivals is the only site that had him rated at 4 stars. Scout, ESPN, 247Sports all have him at 3 or below. The guy has done nothing but regress since HS, and the evidence goes all the way back to his freshman year at CSU.

12/4/2013 5:36:47 PM

Quote :

" 7 wins against shit competition. The goal is to get 8-9 wins against talented competition and win some championships. "

That's not an argument that is going to work in your favor if your objective is to defend the merit of a MAC coach who just went winless in his first season in a BCS conference.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 5:39 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 5:37:10 PM

Why? A lot of coaches suck donkey balls their first few years at a BCS school. Mack Brown went 1-13 in his first 14 ACC games.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 5:44 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 5:44:08 PM

Because you're arguing a case based on potential rather than an observable fact.


TOB gave us 3 consecutive 7+ win seasons in a BCS conference. That actually happened. That's not speculation.

Doeren just went winless in his first go at it. So if you're objective is to argue for 7+ wins against good competition, it's a poor debate strategy to argue the merits of a guy who's only winning history is against MAC competition and who just failed to win a single ACC game vs. a guy who actually did it.


I'm not saying that Doeren can't or won't get there, it's just not a good idea to argue about his "potential" when offering a reason for getting rid of a known commodity.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 5:55 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 5:54:50 PM

Quote :

"Because you're arguing a case based on potential rather than an observable fact."

A lot of facts aren't going to be out for 5 years

Quote :

"Doeren just went winless in his first go at it."

With TOB's players. Fact.

Quote :

"a known commodity."

That's debatable. He had just as many 7+win seasons here as he did he 6- win seasons. And most of those wins came against bullshit teams.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 6:01 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 5:58:31 PM

hence my last sentence

12/4/2013 5:59:22 PM

Quote :

"With TOB's players. Fact."

Quote :

"He had just as many 7+win seasons here as he did he 6- win seasons. And most of those wins came against bullshit teams."

you need to be consistent.

If you are going to give Doeren the benefit of the doubt regarding the team he inherited....then you need to do the same with O'Brien.


If you are going to hold O'Briens first years against him, then please, for the love of my dad, do the same with Doeren. That's all I ask.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 6:04 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 6:03:23 PM

Quote :

"If you are going to give Doeren the benefit of the doubt regarding the team he inherited....then you need to do the same with O'Brien."

I never said TOB didn't inherit a piece of shit team. TOB just had reached his ceiling. which was 5-6 wins and when he had a NFL quarterback he could hit 7-9.

Quote :

"If you are going to hold O'Briens first years against him, then please, for the love of my dad, do the same with Doeren. That's all I ask."

I'm absolutely going to hold this season again Doeren. However, we cannot react on this season alone. We've got to see what he does in the next 3-4 years.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 6:07 PM. Reason : `]

12/4/2013 6:04:28 PM

I would have taken 5-6 wins this season.

12/4/2013 6:05:05 PM

Really? That's not where I would want a coach to be in his 7th year.

Quote :

"So can we at least give Tom O'Brien the credit he deserves for winning 5 games with Daniel Evans and Harrison Beck?"

Some - but he also elected to not play RW. He also decided during RW's first year to alternate between him and Evans.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 6:08 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 6:06:05 PM

Quote :

"Really? That's not where I would want a coach to be in his 7th year"

BUT WHO COULD POSSIBLY WIN WITH THAT SORRY SACK OF SHIT THOMAS????



See where I'm going with this?


5-6 wins with a crappy QB (by your logic). Doeren can't even do that. The verdict is still out with what he can do with better talent. But that's pure speculation. We don't know what his ceiling is, but we know where his basement is...and it ain't pretty.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 6:10 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 6:08:43 PM

Quote :

"He also decided during RW's first year to alternate between him and Evans."

I don't think he decided to give RW a concussion....

12/4/2013 6:09:16 PM

Quote :

"5-6 wins with a crappy QB (by your logic). Doeren can't even do that."

I think DD could of definitely done it. Instead he elected to use this year to install his system so it would pay off dividends down the line. He's trying to build a program - that requires seeing things in both the long and short term.

12/4/2013 6:11:28 PM

Quote :

"I don't think he decided to give RW a concussion...."

Before the concussion he was playing evans in the game. And that still doesn't address the point that he did inherit Russell Wilson his first year and decided to not play him.

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 6:16 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2013 6:11:54 PM

Quote :

"I think DD could of definitely done it. Instead he elected to use this year to install his system so it would pay off dividends down the line. He's trying to build a program - that requires seeing things in both the long and short term."

Again. You're giving Doeren a bigger benefit of the doubt regarding his first season than you are O'Brien.

12/4/2013 6:14:23 PM

Quote :

"Again. You're giving Doeren a bigger benefit of the doubt regarding his first season than you are O'Brien."

How? I haven't really discussed O'briens first year. in fact I even agreed that TOB inherited a POS of team.

12/4/2013 6:15:27 PM

Because you're speculating on what he "could have" done vs. what he actually did do.

And you're comparing that with what O'Brien did do.

12/4/2013 6:21:29 PM

How many stars is Doeren rated? 2?

12/4/2013 7:00:06 PM

Quote :

"7 wins against shit competition. "

Good point.

12/4/2013 7:45:26 PM

Quote :

"How many stars is Doeren rated? 2?"

according to logic itt compared to his performance, he would be a 4* amirite?

12/4/2013 7:59:58 PM

I think Gloria Estefan and the Miami Sound Machine said it best when they noted RHYTHM'S GONNA GET YA!!!!

EMBED!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZkjeJKBI0M

12/4/2013 8:06:48 PM

can you knuckleheads plz PM all this menstruation

it's getting a little out of hand

[Edited on December 4, 2013 at 8:33 PM. Reason : jrb jhc]

12/4/2013 8:32:55 PM

This was a waste of a page

12/4/2013 8:40:19 PM

^that was a waste of a post

12/4/2013 8:42:23 PM

^that was a waste of a post

12/4/2013 8:52:45 PM

It's a good thing sand robot came in here and really directed this page back to some meaningful discussion.

I was worried there for a second that this would turn into a page full of mindless bickering.

12/4/2013 9:02:26 PM

maybe in 4 or 5 years, Florida State will be found guilty of having ineligible players this year and have to vacate all their wins...which would mean our conference record would be 0-7!

12/4/2013 9:09:48 PM

Emilio estevez the mighty duck man I swear to god

12/4/2013 9:18:59 PM