Quote :

"But you people completely ignore the potential mental harm from having the abortion. Shit even the plaintiffs (or defendants I don't feel like looking it up) from Roe v. Wade has regrets."

Read this slowly.

US PEOPLE: want women to have the option to make an informed decision with their doctor about this.

YOU PEOPLE: don't.

11/1/2013 10:51:40 AM

Quote :

"But you people completely ignore the potential mental harm from having the abortion."

Yes, some women experience regret. But we have to assume that women know what's best for their own lives/bodies.

But it's also a by-product of the slut-shaming attitude against abortion.

11/1/2013 10:52:46 AM

no one here is championing abortion as an awesome thing that should be used often and taken lightly. the point is that a woman should be allowed to make her own decision, it should be her choice.

(and its not normal for conservatives to use the "government knows best" argument. let's apply that to welfare and gun control next!)

11/1/2013 10:56:09 AM

Look - personally I don't know how I feel about the option of choice. I'm internally conflicted. A large part of me realizes that any government forcing any decision upon anyone is wrong (throw back to ACA there), but another part of me thinks its also wrong to distinguish human life.

So, I'm conflicted. I'm arguing here for arguments sake...both sides have compelling reasons for their views.

11/1/2013 11:12:34 AM

^^you assume that just because someone is against abortion they equate that to making it the law of the land.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:13 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2013 11:13:31 AM

i'm not assuming that at all about you, we are having a discussion about your views and philosophy.

why is rape a risk to the mother but unwanted pregnancy is not a risk? how do you make that distinction?

11/1/2013 11:14:57 AM

I personally don't make that distinction. I would assume that there is a quantifiable medical risk that is much higher than a normal pregnancy in the case of rape. If i'm wrong on that, then i suppose they shouldn't get the abortion.

11/1/2013 11:18:50 AM

you made that distinction just a few posts ago, but whatever

so you think that the medical risk is higher in the case of rape? why do you think that? is it higher in the case of accidental pregnancy? why would accidental pregnancy and rape have different medical risks.

so if someone demonstrates to you that the medical risk is the same, on average, regardless of whether the pregnancy is rape, accidental, or planned; i'm assuming you would then conclude that abortion is never morally permissible?

11/1/2013 11:23:02 AM

Here's one distinction people make - rape is potentially forced pregnancy, consentual sex resulting in a pregnancy is not. If a woman didn't choose to have sex, then the resulting pregnancy should be up to her.

11/1/2013 11:25:10 AM

it should definitely be up to her, and she should be allowed to terminate the pregnancy

(you are making the slut shaming argument again)

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:27 AM. Reason : slut shaming]

11/1/2013 11:26:43 AM

what if the woman was on birth control and her partner wore a condom, but still somehow manages to get pregnant? she should be forced to carry the baby to full term?

11/1/2013 11:27:28 AM

obviously, that slut shouldn't have had sex if she didn't want a baby!

11/1/2013 11:27:59 AM

ah, that's right. sex is for procreation ONLY!

11/1/2013 11:28:51 AM

Quote :

"she should be forced to carry the baby to full term? kill the baby when there is no immediate medical threat?"

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:35 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2013 11:35:01 AM

yes

11/1/2013 11:35:47 AM

See, I pose an argument, not necessarily mine, and I get attacked.

How is saying someone should be responsible for their actions be considered slut shaming? Just because you get knocked up on accident doesn't mean your a slut. Should you own up to the results? That is the argument here.

11/1/2013 11:36:23 AM

^^^if you're trying to say she should suffer through the pregnancy, but give it up for adoption, that's still forcing her to carry the baby.

keep trying

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:37 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 11:36:41 AM

We arnt going to solve this.

11/1/2013 11:37:02 AM

Quote :

"How is saying someone should be responsible for their actions be considered slut shaming? Just because you get knocked up on accident doesn't mean your a slut. Should you own up to the results? That is the argument here."

I see having an informed talk with your doctor and going through an abortion as a non-trivial "owning up to the results" of an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:38 AM. Reason : .]

11/1/2013 11:38:07 AM

Quote :

"kill the baby when there is no immediate medical threat"

Quote :

"rape pregnancy can have serious mental health consequences"

and so can accidental pregnancies. which is a point you haven't responded to.

11/1/2013 11:39:07 AM

I know a woman who has had FOUR abortions. As horrifying as that is, given her lifestyle (non-stop partying/drinking), she could easily have 8 kids that all you pro-lifers would be bitching about having to support with your tax dollars.

11/1/2013 11:39:45 AM

After four goddamned abortions you need a fucking lifestyle change.

I'm sorry, that is just wreckless. I hope to holy hell she paid for all those out of her own pocket.

Ok, I've composed myself again.

And had she had the kid from that very first abortion, maybe that would have been the lifestyle change she obviously needs.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:43 AM. Reason : ad]

11/1/2013 11:42:15 AM

Or maybe she would have dumped the baby in a dumpster and then killed herself.

Maybe we shouldn't play the maybe game.

11/1/2013 11:44:29 AM

because you never see situations where people have multiple kids they can't and don't want to care for, that never happens, ever. never ever.

11/1/2013 11:44:51 AM

Actually, some (1 or 2) of them were self induced by using OTC pills because she couldn't afford paying for it. Does that make you feel any better?

11/1/2013 11:45:09 AM

Fuck I wanted to have my kids and they're taking their toll on my mental and financial health.

11/1/2013 11:45:35 AM

^^^adoption.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason : ]

11/1/2013 11:45:37 AM

Can she adopt away the physical and mental problems that going through a full term pregnancy and birth cause?

11/1/2013 11:47:24 AM

No, it doesn't make me feel any better. You would think you'd try harder after the first couple abortions, whether they be self induced or performed by a doctor.

And dt, I also find people who continuously have kids even though they know they can't pay for them just as wreckless. Same thing, you would think they would learn after the first couple of kids.

11/1/2013 11:48:06 AM

^^
"take my baby, and my PTSD"

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:48 AM. Reason : and my third degree vaginal tearing. google that shit]

11/1/2013 11:48:11 AM

eh, she'll get over those problems. just like that baby is guaranteed to grow up in a loving home, free from neglect/abuse found in orphanages/foster homes.

11/1/2013 11:50:13 AM

Wow you people are really overplaying the whole damage to your body through birth. Have you ever sat through a birth first hand? That thing is designed to be pretty stretchy. And in most cases the doctor won't allow for tearing....they have an episiotomy and then stitch it back, and it will heal. Really harmful complications are becoming more rare. And in most cases, if they determine there will be problems, they'll go to a c-section in no time flat.

Maybe in a case of preeclampsia one would want to terminate due to physical health.

That's kind of off the topic, but you keep throwing around these "physical harmful" terms regarding the mother. Yea, maybe if you're giving birth in sub-Saharan Africa.

And I'm not posting this to advocate pro-choice or pro-life, its just that modern medicine is pretty awesome. But we should also talk about physical pain. That, at least from what I've been able to personally observe, is pretty fucking real. If someone doesn't want to go through that, I can't blame them. And nobody here is really talking about pain aspect, but this may be what drives some abortions. Even numbing that shit doesn't really work sometimes.

[Edited on November 1, 2013 at 11:55 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

11/1/2013 11:52:48 AM

regardless of whether those risks are high or not, a woman should not be FORCED to endure a pregnancy against her will.

11/1/2013 11:54:32 AM

it doesn't matter how high the risks are, the point is that it is a medical decision and the mother should be the only one allowed to make the decision since its her body

11/1/2013 11:57:33 AM

... it's not just her body.

11/1/2013 12:05:44 PM

so just separate the two bodies then, the baby will be fine on its own

11/1/2013 12:09:10 PM

My wife had one with an epidural and one without (not by choice). I'm familiar with the amount of pain, damage, recovery, and mental health problems wanted children cause. I can only imagine how terrible unwanted pregnancies and births would be.

11/1/2013 12:14:28 PM

a clump of cells isn't a body

11/1/2013 12:17:07 PM

it is. just isn't fully developed yet.

11/1/2013 12:20:00 PM

oh, so its still physically and biologically dependent on the mother? oh, in that case, see:

Quote :

"the point is that it is a medical decision and the mother should be the only one allowed to make the decision since its her body"

11/1/2013 12:21:19 PM

^^in your view, does it become a "body" upon conception?

11/1/2013 12:22:09 PM

it becomes human at conception, yes. obviously it isn't fully developed yet.

11/1/2013 12:25:07 PM

I'm still hung up on the lady that has aborted 2 less people that signed up for the ACA on the first day.

11/1/2013 12:34:19 PM

why are you hung up on that?

11/1/2013 12:46:43 PM

I would just think that after at least 2, or maybe even the 3rd, one would come to the realization that something isn't working out as it should, and would do something to change the results.

11/1/2013 12:51:51 PM

she might not be the brightest person. hell, for all you know she has an IQ of 50.

11/1/2013 12:54:46 PM

Quote :

"it becomes human at conception, yes."

so can we go back to this point:

Quote :

"Are you robbing someone of a life if you abort? Are you robbing someone of a life if you use birth control?"

11/1/2013 12:59:35 PM

To me, prevention is one thing, but when that prevention fails, if you have a life, then you have a life. But there are probably millions upon millions of catholics who would disagree with me on prevention.

11/1/2013 1:02:09 PM

man, I was so sure we were going to have a breakthrough on page 31

If maybe someone would try just a little bit harder to emphasize the point that it's a bodily autonomy issue, then we'll get it all sorted out. I just know it.

11/1/2013 1:03:33 PM

birth control prevents conception so you aren't killing anything.

11/1/2013 1:04:13 PM