It was written in the context of the revolutionary war, to demonstrate the importance to Americans for the ability to stand up to an oppressive hegemony.

It has since been re-interpreted by various legal challenges and rulings to firmly define the right of people to own guns for the purpose of self defense.

WHY it was put in there is completely senseless to modern day times (like almost any 200+ year old prescriptive document would be), but what it means TODAY is an entirely different question.

1/21/2013 10:47:18 PM

Quote :

"to demonstrate the importance to Americans for the ability to stand up to an oppressive hegemony"

do you think this is still important?

1/21/2013 10:53:00 PM

It doesn't matter what I think. The legal system over the centuries clearly does not.

1/21/2013 10:55:37 PM

my point exactly

1/21/2013 10:58:02 PM

If the U.S. government wanted to oppress you, what exactly do you guys think a closet full of guns is going to do to stop this?

1/21/2013 10:58:17 PM

nothing, but that's not what i'm arguing. i'm arguing the intent of 2A.

if we kept a well-regulated militia, then the folks might have some power.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1495

[Edited on January 21, 2013 at 11:02 PM. Reason : and got rid of the huge standing army we were warned about]

[Edited on January 21, 2013 at 11:03 PM. Reason : we don't even really need guns to ditch the current abortion of a govt, just need some sense]

1/21/2013 11:01:14 PM

Quote :

"but how does that prove your point? what is your point again?"

Quote :

"i do shoot at a range occasionally. yeah, it's fun,"

My point has pretty much been the same since the outset. The Second Amendment doesn't do dick to prevent tyranny, and the belief that it keeps you "safe" is on shaky grounds at best.

The real reason why people buy guns is simply because they enjoy shooting things. They get their jollies by shooting things, and they imagine themselves shooting things. They practice shooting things in the event that they are ever called on to shoot something.

Nobody sincerely believes their gun is the final hurdle between democracy and brutal oppression. Anyone who says, "I hope I never have to use it" is lying out of their asshole. Nobody buys guns because they make good paper weights. They buy guns so that they can go to the range, practice, and potentially use it one day. Yet almost none of these people will just admit that they like guns because they're "fun."

Any other reason they give is pure, certified, freshly crapped-out horse shit.

And when they do say it, it's usually after prolonged questioning that they admit their true motives for buying a gun. It's as if they're ashamed to admit that the real reason for liking guns is not political, but purely out of the excitement they get when they get to shoot it. It's like they're embarrassed to come to grips with the fact that it's a little odd to get so much pleasure out of simulating lethal force.

Honestly, if I had the same fascination with knives that some people do with guns, and I owned multiple knives for different situations, bought huge knives of zero practical use, kept one near me at all times, took classes on proper knife technique, and went to a special building so that I could practice my stabbin', and told people that, "I pray that I'll never have to use it," you'd think I was a freakin' lunatic.

AS YOU SHOULD.

But replace knives with guns, which is far more lethal, and all of a sudden the rules change, and we're supposed to believe that anyone who does those things is an honorable patriot! Fiercely upholding the constitution!

C'mon, man.

1/21/2013 11:27:55 PM

^you can just admit that you're a wuss and are afraid of guns.

it's okay, no one is going to judge you.

the only reason someone can be so averse to guns is that they are a complete pussy. any other explanation you offer up is complete horseshit, don't even bother trying.



[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:16 AM. Reason : i can read minds, too! ]

1/21/2013 11:56:44 PM

I think people buy guns for different reasons.

1/22/2013 12:12:30 AM

^of course they do. jesushchrist just likes trolling by pretending he's some sort of psychologist and knows exactly what every single gun owner thinks. of course, he has zero sources to cite anything he says. who needs them after having so many profound life experiences?

1/22/2013 12:21:59 AM

And his stereotypical views concerning firearm owners are absolute truths. Don't forget that...

Quote :

"you'd think I was a freakin' lunatic. AS YOU SHOULD. "

Here we go with the judgemental attitude again... I suppose all those people who discipline themselves with karate, tae-kwon-do, and other martial arts are also lunatics. I mean, why are they training themselves to be lethal weapons? THEY MUST BE LUNATICS TOO..

That's a great rule of reasoning there JHC. If you don't understand it or find it taboo, fear it and call it crazy! Such a close minded protectionist mindset...


[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 2:21 AM. Reason : .]

1/22/2013 2:15:35 AM

^^,^ Are you guys suggesting that a guy who calls himself JesusHChrist might have a bit of a God complex? Blasphemy!

1/22/2013 6:43:00 AM

yeah, i'm gonna stop debating with the troll. his stereotyping and over-generalizations make his trolling too obvious.

1/22/2013 9:26:51 AM

I don't really feel bad about gun nuts being stereotyped when they spend most of the conversation pretending they speak for all gun owners anyway.

1/22/2013 11:24:28 AM

I'm not talking about stereotyping "gun nuts". I stereotype "gun nuts". I'm talking about stereotyping all gun owners as "gun nuts". There are plenty of responsbile gun owners who aren't right-wing doomsday-prepping gun-hoarders that fantasize about the apocalypse and shooting people.

I'm speaking for myself, and I know that I am not a stereotypical "gun nut".

1/22/2013 11:38:17 AM

i practice self defense and marial arts, i hope i never have to use it

i dont go out starting fights, but if i or someone around me if confronted by an aggressor i will gladly use what i know to defend myself, or those incapable of defending themselves.

does that mean we should ban fists, elbows, knees and shins?

people like JHC walk around acting like "It" cant happen to them. Hes the same type that winds up getting his door kicked in or being pulled out of his car at the redlight.

His over generalization is ridiculous, most gun owners have guns because they know they should possess one and know how to shoot it in order to defend themselves, but at the same time if you ask them about it you can tell they get physically sick at the thought of having to use it. Hell, some people simply cannot use that weapon and go through extraordinary depths to avoid presenting it.

So not everyone who is in favor of lawful gun possession is a nut. LOL there are some though no doubt but you cat base your entire opinion on carefully selected pans of rednecks standing in a line or biased soundbites that represent only what they WANT you to perceive.

1/22/2013 11:53:38 AM

If you own a single gun, you are a gun nut that fantasizes about self defense scenarios. And by self defense scenarios, I mean your sick, twisted fantasies about gunning down someone in cold blood. There are no exceptions.

1/22/2013 11:54:39 AM

I'm not making sweeping generalizations. I'm just stating the obvious. People who buy guns shoot things. Most of them enjoy it, which is why they buy multiple guns, and have preferences. You admitted to a much last page.
The only claim I'm making is that the reason of "fun" trumps all the other stated reasons, but almost always comes last when you ask a gun owner why they bought it.


I love how I'm some radical for pointing this out.


The fact that everyone is getting cagey and defensive over this really is kind of interesting. I promise you that people who box or do martial arts would use "fun" at the top of their list when asked why they do so. Not gun owners, though. THEY'RE SERIOUS PEOPLE WHO ONLY DO SERIOUS THINGS!



[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:13 PM. Reason : Sir Serious Van Seriouski. Duke of the Serioustons]

1/22/2013 11:56:03 AM

you say "fun" trumps all reasons, even though gun owners say otherwise

lol that makes it true

why the fuck do you think they give a damn what you think? You are nobody worth lying to.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM. Reason : e]

1/22/2013 12:00:19 PM

It's not me who they're lying to.

1/22/2013 12:03:12 PM

oh youre so deep

1/22/2013 12:07:04 PM

Quote :

" His over generalization is ridiculous, most gun owners have guns because they know they should possess one and know how to shoot it in order to defend themselves, but at the same time if you ask them about it you can tell they get physically sick at the thought of having to use it. Hell, some people simply cannot use that weapon and go through extraordinary depths to avoid presenting it."

I love how you accuse me of presenting sweeping generalizations, and then IMMEDIATELY present a gross generalization that paints most gun owners in a positive light, full with responsible behavior and impeccable moral nuance. Well done.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:10 PM. Reason : phone post]

1/22/2013 12:09:42 PM

Quote :

"I'm not making sweeping generalizations."

yeah, you are, grossly generalizing, and you're not worth "debating" with because your preconceived biases prevent you from thinking rationally.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:16 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2013 12:11:50 PM

Ha, so most people buy guns hoping they never use it (except for all the times they go to the range to practice).

Yeah, that's way more rational. People buy guns because they think they look pretty. Okay.


The mere rules of gun safety preclude the desire to "never have to use the gun." You cannot be both proficient with guns and wish to never use it at the same time.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:18 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2013 12:15:18 PM

you're coming across as a retard man, just to let you know.

1/22/2013 12:17:01 PM

Yes. It's retarded to suggest people buy guns because they like guns.

1/22/2013 12:20:03 PM

oh, so that's what you're trying to argue? i thought you were trying to argue that anyone who possesses more than zero guns is a "gun nut" that ejaculates to dreams of murdering people.

Quote :

"You cannot be both proficient with guns and wish to never use it at the same time."

again, preconceived biases are keeping you from thinking rationally. this is just retarded. because i want to be proficient with a gun means i want someone to break in my house so i can murder them? retarded.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:24 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2013 12:20:34 PM

Quote :

"I love how you accuse me of presenting sweeping generalizations, and then IMMEDIATELY present a gross generalization that paints most gun owners in a positive light, full with responsible behavior and impeccable moral nuance. Well done. "

well that means the truth is somewhere in the middle, I come from a county of marines and rednecks so take my anecdotes for what they may be worth relative to your own.

1/22/2013 12:28:22 PM

I don't own any guns yet, but if I ever get around to buying one, it will be because I enjoy shooting. I don't give a shit about self-defense, hunting, oppressive government or anything like that. I just like to put holes in things (or blow them up) from a distance.

1/22/2013 12:32:02 PM

^A honest answer. One that I actually respect. A man who is aware of his motives and doesn't need to come up with convoluted reasons to hide his true intent. Enjoy your shooting. I won't stop you.

Quote :

"his is just retarded. because i want to be proficient with a gun means i want someone to break in my house so i can murder them? retarded."

Maybe if you weren't so busy getting your fussy little feelings hurt, you would have read what I said (repeatedly) without bias. You want to be proficient with guns because you want to be proficient with guns. That's a reason in and of itself. So stop acting like you "pray you never have to use them." You want to use them. You think it's fun. You admitted to it being fun last page. So drop the compassionate gun owner act.

Quote :

"I come from a county of marines and rednecks so take my anecdotes for what they may be worth relative to your own."

Don't worry dawg, I usually do.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:41 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2013 12:37:44 PM

I own and practice with my guns because i enjoy killing people. Simple as that. I actually am looking forward to the day that I can kill someone legally because they broke into my home.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 12:44 PM. Reason : muh welcome mat says "dont knock, just come on in"]

1/22/2013 12:43:35 PM

Quote :

"A honest answer. One that I actually respect. A man who is aware of his motives and doesn't need to come up with convoluted reasons to hide his true intent. Enjoy your shooting. I won't stop you."

I also hope I never have to shoot another human being.

1/22/2013 12:45:17 PM

Quote :

"You want to use them. You think it's fun."

do i want to use them at the range? yes. it is fun. like shooting basketball. or mountain biking. or playing video games or watching movies or fishing or snowboarding or gardening. what are some of your hobbies that you enjoy? why are they morally better than shooting a gun at a shooting range?

do i want to use them on other humans? no. i don't think that'd be fun at all. i think it would be terrible and would probably cause me to have ptsd.

to say that i think it would be fun to use my gun in a home invasion is completely retarded. it's hard to believe you're trying to pass your grasping as logical thinking. jesus, you're an arrogant know-it-all.

1/22/2013 12:53:23 PM

Quote :

"do i want to use them at the range? yes. it is fun. like shooting basketball. or mountain biking. or playing video games or watching movies or fishing or snowboarding or gardening. what are some of your hobbies that you enjoy? why are they morally better than shooting a gun at a shooting range?"

38 pages later, and you're motive finally comes out.

We seriously had to wade through 38 pages of bullshit to hear this from gun owners? Why couldn't we have just skipped the "I need it to protect muh liburties!" and the "I need it tuh shoot theze daggum varmints that dun' stole my paterters!" and "i keep one by my bedstand cuz dey rapin' everyone round here!."

Why can't you guys just start the debate from here: Guns are fun. I like guns. Don't take away my hobby?

I don't give a shit if you think I'm arrogant or not. You can take comfort in calling me a smarty pants if it helps you sleep at night.

Or you can just keep a gun under your pillow, I heard that helps, too.

1/22/2013 1:00:11 PM

JHC has never heard of shooting as a hobby or an olympic event

1/22/2013 1:00:34 PM

^an unfortunate time to make that post.

1/22/2013 1:01:29 PM

Quote :

"Why can't you guys just start the debate from here: Guns are fun. I like guns. Don't take away my hobby?"

again, huge generalizations you're making. i didn't get a gun primarily for fun. i've had a gun for 7 or 8 years. i've been to a range 4 times. so again, your broad generalization is way off. i didn't buy it primarily as a hobby. it's not a big hobby of mine. it is fun shooting, i have had fun the few times i've shot it. but the primary reason i bought it is to have a gun in my house if i ever need it. plain and simple. not to shoot it. for you to say otherwise is retarded on your part. i actually haven't even moved it or seen it in about a year. if i primarily bought it to shoot it, don't you think i would have gone to the range more than once every two years? why can't you admit that you're being retarded with your gross, sweeping generalizations? i know that your stereotypes do apply to some people, the "gun nuts". but you're being retarded in thinking they apply to anyone and everyone who owns a gun.

what are some of your hobbies? i'm sure we could all have fun making gross sweeping generalizations about you based on them.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 1:10 PM. Reason : ]

1/22/2013 1:09:09 PM

Get a thesaurus. I suggest mongoloid, troglodyte, downy, or Tri-21 if you want to get esoteric with it.

And if you've only used your gun 4 times, then I really doubt you'll be handy with that steel in the event of the emergency. So, congrats, you have a tool that you probably won't be able to use correctly under duress. Sweet, bruh.

1/22/2013 1:14:41 PM

The stupid is strong with this one.

1/22/2013 1:18:48 PM

cool brah, another gross assumption on your part. you're pretty good at that bro. i shot guns a fair amount when i was younger. since i've gotten older and owned my own gun, i've been to a range 4 times in 7 or 8 years.

again, it seems your argument, as meandering and pointless as it has been, is that if you own a gun, it means you want to kill people. cool argument, bruh.

1/22/2013 1:19:41 PM

Shooting moving targets.

Just like riding a bicycle.

1/22/2013 1:24:03 PM

is anyone still opposed to universal background checks, or have we at least agreed now that this tiny step is okay?

1/22/2013 1:27:57 PM

^^killing people, popping wheelies... doesn't matter, they both make me pop a boner.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 1:35 PM. Reason : ^i'm in total agreement. ]

1/22/2013 1:31:24 PM

^^I don't think so.

1/22/2013 1:32:05 PM

Poppin' wheelies, poppin' caps, and poppin' boners.

Jealous?

1/22/2013 1:46:42 PM

yeah, i thought about "poppin' caps" later, but decided not to edit it in.

1/22/2013 1:49:51 PM

Another shooting at a college in Texas on going right now.

1/22/2013 2:26:19 PM

Sounds like two people shooting at each other, not a 'rampage/mass murder' thing.

1/22/2013 4:33:53 PM

Quote :

""You cannot be both proficient with guns and wish to never use it at the same time.""

You're failing to make a distinction here between wishing to use it and wishing to use it to shoot someone in self defense. Do I wish to use my gun to do some target shooting on occasion? Absolutely, it's fun. Do I wish to use my gun to shoot someone in self defense? No, never.

1/22/2013 4:53:49 PM

^ seriously, that is by far the most retarded comment I have ever seen/heard with regards to this debate. and i dont even own a gun.

[Edited on January 22, 2013 at 5:02 PM. Reason : JHC's]

1/22/2013 5:00:39 PM