First, not doubting that you have a clerkship waiting for you if you go to law school. That is how a lot of these jobs get sewn up in the first place.

However, it's not what it use to be in that sense either. There were kids who I went to law school with who couldn't get a job with their dad's firm upon graduation. I just wouldn't set all my hopes on what could be friendly banter between your pops and his good buddy.

And clerkships don't guarantee good jobs anymore. I know guys who are staying in them longer than ever because they can't get jobs afterwards. I would shoot myself if I had to clerk for a judge for more than one year. Almost everyone I know is doing at least two year clerkships these days.

[Edited on March 20, 2012 at 7:01 AM. Reason : .]

3/20/2012 6:59:02 AM

^I agree with everything he just said.

But jobs are formed based on connections. If you think it gives you a leg up, then you should count that in the "pro" column. But it may not be enough to outweigh everything in the "con" column. It just depends on how much money you're willing to risk for this venture.

3/20/2012 10:40:40 AM

^

Quote :

"so adding another $150,000 I could have made working to that puts it up to $333k.... "

Waaayyy too much IMO. Especially when clerks are making, $40, maybe $50K these days?? I can't even fathom what a loan payment on a $300k plus loan would be. My old roommate had around a $130K loan and was paying something like $1,100 a month. Fuck that shit.

I wouldn't go to law school if I knew I would be $100K in debt right now. And if I was in NC with the job market and over saturation the way it is...I wouldn't do it for over $50k. It would be a public school (UNC/Central) or bust for me.

3/20/2012 11:36:29 AM

Anyone know what big firms in NC are paying starting staff attorneys/associates these days?

3/20/2012 10:17:09 PM

65-85 for medium to large firms, depending on field. 45k for a small firm or public interest or clerkship. I have seen slome associates offered less than that, or to work for experience and free office space.

3/21/2012 7:58:36 AM

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/life/education/fewer-takers-law-school-test

Quote :

"The Law School Admission Test, the LSAT, is losing popularity. Sixteen percent fewer legal hopefuls took the test this academic year than last."

Its about friggin time. People are learning.

3/21/2012 8:27:59 AM

I appreciate all the advice.

Just to be clear, though, the debt would be $200k which is still a TON, but I was figuring the opportunity cost loss of not working for three years during school, and adding that in to be around 333k based on my current salary.

My dad is pushing me hard to go to Campbell and I mentioned going part time to NCCU and continuing to work and he said he'd be extremely disappointed in me for doing that. If money wasn't an issue, I'd go to Campbell all day but since the debt burden falls on me it's a big decision I'll have to weigh out and make. Honestly, the best thing to do would be to keep trying to raise my LSAT to get more scholarship leverage and get into a public school but I just fear that if I quit school now I'll never go back and I'd be 27 entering law school if I wait a year.

3/21/2012 7:12:03 PM

27 entering law school is about average. Don't let age be a factor really. There are plenty of people who are much older. And NCCU is certainly respectable, but if you can hold out for admission to UNC, that's what I'd do.

3/21/2012 7:18:02 PM

27 and entering law school is an advantage if you ask me (i was 26).

3/21/2012 8:19:17 PM

In all fairness to your dad, whom you seem to be relying heavily on for future job prospects that may or may not pan out, if he isn't going to pay your tuition when you get out, tell him politely to get fucked.

law school can be exactly what you want to make it, but there's also the possibility that it makes you, in the sense that you discover some component of the law that you hadn't considered before but that you find you're extremely passionate about or interested in (or somehow good at understanding). imagine that you get out, clerk, or go into real estate with your dad's contacts, and you want to kill yourself every day you show up. it's not necessarily likely, but it's possible. and you would be spending all that extra money because your dad would be disappointed? man, fuck your dad.

its entirely likely that you're not going to make THAT much starting out of school anyway going to campbell OR NCCU. if finances are a big concern for you (and they sound like they are), it's not a bad idea to go part time.

Disclosure, that's the route I'm taking but I also make just over six figures at the moment and have a fairly stable career going that a law degree will compliment, so consider that when you take my perspective into account.

3/21/2012 8:24:49 PM

Quote :

" My dad is pushing me hard to go to Campbell and I mentioned going part time to NCCU and continuing to work and he said he'd be extremely disappointed in me for doing that. If money wasn't an issue, I'd go to Campbell all day but since the debt burden falls on me it's a big decision I'll have to weigh out and make. Honestly, the best thing to do would be to keep trying to raise my LSAT to get more scholarship leverage and get into a public school but I just fear that if I quit school now I'll never go back and I'd be 27 entering law school if I wait a year."

To re-iterate what Agent 0 said...unless your dad is going to help pay your tuition or is ready to make your first couple years of loan payments when you get out, you should politely tell him to go fuck himself.

Other than possible connection, it's not like a Campbell degree is going to be that much better at getting you a job than one from NCCU. You could up the LSAT and try and get some scholarship money from Campbell, but it's going to have to be a lot to match the low cost of NCCU. And you're going to have a tough time getting it high enough to get into UNC (you said 150 right?).

I bartended throughout law school...and I'm telling ya, it's the best decision I ever made. I made a lot of money, didn't have to take out as much in loans, and I have a nice, plump nest egg to sit on while I went through job options after graduation. I saw a ton of my fellow classmates struggle mightily with over $100K in debt while not being able to find jobs...or finding shitty paying ones.

3/22/2012 11:16:54 AM

Didn't realize Agent 0 was a millionaire. Tip of the cap.


I'm 27 and in the same "Should I or shouldn't I?" stage of my 'career'. I have a good job that I enjoy with a pretty clear cut ascension plan, but I'm just not sure its what I want to do with my life. Now, I would never want to practice. I know plenty of real lawyers and want nothing to do with that. But I would like the knowledge and the open doors a law degree would bring. Money Power Respect etc. The number one thing everyone's told me is to have a plan. Don't go to law school just to go to law school. Outline your next 5, 10, 15 years and have clear cut goals for each milestone. I've mapped everything out countless times, but I still can't make my mind up. Its a big commitment. I'm giving myself an October deadline to shit or get off the pot.

I probably won't go, because I hate homework and love weed, but I'm definitely doing my due diligence.

3/22/2012 8:31:28 PM

let me stop you there...

3/22/2012 8:53:19 PM

Quote :

"I know plenty of real lawyers and want nothing to do with that. But I would like the knowledge and the open doors a law degree would bring. Money Power Respect etc"

LOL.

3/22/2012 8:59:45 PM

Quote :

"Didn't realize Agent 0 was a millionaire. Tip of the cap."

I didn't see anywhere that said he's a millionaire.

3/22/2012 9:22:37 PM

I am a millionaire.

3/22/2012 9:36:40 PM

Quote :

"I'm 27 and in the same "Should I or shouldn't I?" stage of my 'career'. I have a good job that I enjoy with a pretty clear cut ascension plan, but I'm just not sure its what I want to do with my life. Now, I would never want to practice. I know plenty of real lawyers and want nothing to do with that. But I would like the knowledge and the open doors a law degree would bring. Money Power Respect etc. The number one thing everyone's told me is to have a plan. Don't go to law school just to go to law school. Outline your next 5, 10, 15 years and have clear cut goals for each milestone. I've mapped everything out countless times, but I still can't make my mind up. Its a big commitment. I'm giving myself an October deadline to shit or get off the pot. I probably won't go, because I hate homework and love weed, but I'm definitely doing my due diligence."

Unless the "ascension" in your company is sped up by a law degree...don't do it. Especially if you really have no desire to practice (although I feel like you want to practice...deep down...just a little).

You really don't have to do "homework"...but you have to read...and if you're a good reader, it's not that big of a deal. There were also plenty of potheads in my law school, and I got by with bartending 40 hours a week. So you're smart enough to do it. But you'll more than likely graduate with a decent amount of debt and not a good job.

So don't do it.

3/22/2012 10:39:17 PM

the 3L year is gonna start off nice and easy...12 hours, 4 classes, no final exams (1 paper, 1 project, 1 clinic, 1 bar refresher)

3/27/2012 4:21:21 PM

Quote :

"I am a millionaire."

Oh oh, Oh oh

3/28/2012 11:09:54 AM

No harm in taking the LSAT and trying to rock it - and then using where the score puts you to help you make your decision

4/3/2012 12:09:23 AM

I'm wondering if I should cut my cable off when I'm studying for the bar. I'm not so much tempted by distractions as I know I'll be broke this summer.

Also, I have a wedding to go to this summer. June 9 wedding in Puerto Rico. Right now I plan on staying in Puerto Rico for 6 days, and study for 6-8 hours a day for 5 of those days.

Most people don't seem to think I'm screwing myself as long as I have discipline down there. I mean, there's nothing to do in Vieques other than look at the beach, surf, drink and fish. I have more distractions here in the middle of DC.

What do you guys think?

4/5/2012 8:38:46 AM

Bar is at the end of July right? I wouldn't study so much during the wedding. Make that your halfway break. Pick one area, like the multi-state, and just do test questions/tests for 2/3 hours a day.

Cancel cable because of the money...not because of studying. I tried not to study much at home anyways (if a TV is close, I'm watching it). I stayed away from the law school as well. I had a favorite coffee shop and the local college library. Didn't know many people there and gave me enough distractions so I wouldn't go stir crazy (I can't study in complete solitude...there needs to be SOMETHING going on). But keep the cable to watch TV at night. You need to wind down at the end of everyday and how would you do that without shitty TV?

[Edited on April 5, 2012 at 10:04 AM. Reason : .]

4/5/2012 9:35:11 AM

Thanks for the advice, that makes a lot of sense. I think I also may start the prep a little early to make up for what I miss in Puerto Rico. We'll see. All I know is I'm not taking that test twice!

4/5/2012 9:54:14 AM

I wouldn't cut cable just for the bar. It might be nice to be able to break from studying, and watch 30 minutes of TV. If you can watch just 30 minutes, or whatever amount of time you put on it.

If you can't pull away from studying, you will burn out, and you won't do well. So, find something that can give you a *small* distraction, and that you can control. For me, it was having a movie on in the background to keep me from getting on the internet. Or i would get up, and practice the piano for 30 minutes. Something to get your mind away from bar stuff.

As far as the wedding, I think you're fine. I wouldn't plan on 8 hours a day, because you're going to be in PR, and you're not going to hit that. If you ramp up your studying in May, then take the week off in June. There's enough wiggle room in your schedule to do that. Bring your stuff, and study when you can, but don't feel guilty, and don't try and do too much. Like jbrick said, 2-3 hours a day is plenty.

The biggest thing is making a schedule, sticking to it, but remembering to take your needed breaks. DO NOT try and study 8 hours a day for 7 days a week. Or 12 hours a day for 5 days a week. Treat this like a job, don't overdo it, just make sure you're covering your bases.

[Edited on April 5, 2012 at 9:58 AM. Reason : Go outside. Take walks. Get out of a funk if you're in one. Remember to eat, exercise, and sleep.]

4/5/2012 9:57:40 AM

Thanks, this makes me feel much better. Woohoo!

4/5/2012 10:17:20 AM

finally passed the bar exam!

4/7/2012 5:34:31 PM

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Did you do anything differently to study this time around? I have a friend re-taking in July, and if you've got any words of advice, I'll pass them along.

Really, excellent news. Few things have been more momentous in my life than getting that letter in the mail.

4/7/2012 5:49:29 PM

I just wanted to drop in and say that Joie confirms that Beethoven is smoking hot

4/7/2012 6:03:38 PM

I'm glad you put that in the law school thread.

4/7/2012 6:12:34 PM

4/7/2012 6:16:47 PM

Quote :

"CONGRATULATIONS!!! Did you do anything differently to study this time around? I have a friend re-taking in July, and if you've got any words of advice, I'll pass them along. Really, excellent news. Few things have been more momentous in my life than getting that letter in the mail. "

I got a private tutor. It was worth every penny! If you want the name of the tutor, let me know, and I'll pm you the info.

Through the private tutor, I did about 75-80 full, graded practice essays (from october to the friday before the bar), and 17 MBE questions 5 days a week from November through the Sunday before the Bar.

Oh, and yes. Opening that letter put me in tears - i won't lie. One of the pure happiest moments of my life.

[Edited on April 7, 2012 at 7:11 PM. Reason : .]

4/7/2012 7:09:00 PM

Ballpark price on the tutor? Feel free to pm. Would obviously be from about may-july.

4/7/2012 7:25:57 PM

pm sent!

4/7/2012 7:42:44 PM

Should be hearing back about a job with the state this week. This is pretty close to my dream job and I'm incredibly worried. Haven't had a good night's sleep in about 3 weeks. I think both interviews went well and my references were all great, but there's no way of knowing what I'm up against. Don't have a great backup plan in Raleigh, and all the federal jobs I've applied for were canceled except for a potential examiner job with the USPTO. Pretty much my whole future depends on this. Welp.

4/7/2012 8:35:01 PM

good luck!

4/7/2012 9:07:52 PM

Thanks broski I hope it's a good lock haw haw haw haw haw haw

4/7/2012 9:47:48 PM

Nothing like waiting for life-changing news on the unluckiest day of the year

4/13/2012 10:23:14 AM

Good luck. I have a friend who interviewed with the USPTO position, and they basically told her they were cutting way back on their hiring too. Do you know that you'll definitely hear back from the state job today? Or is there a possibility you sweat it out all day and they don't tell you until Tuesday?

Also are you patent bar eligible?

4/13/2012 10:40:57 AM

Nah, don't know for sure. They said they'd have a decision between the 9th and 13th but I guess technically they didn't say they would tell me.

I am patent bar eligible but I haven't taken it. I kind of hate patent law, heh. The deadline on the examiner position also got moved back to May 5, so it will still probably be another month before they decide on that too. You know of any leads in Raleigh?

4/13/2012 10:43:38 AM

Only if you want to do something like Workers Comp or Criminal. I have seen a few patent openings crop up.

I know there's an assistant counsel position open with the NC Medical Society if that's up your alley. http://www.ncmedsoc.org

This firm: http://www.moorealphin.com is looking for a Real Estate attorney with 0-3 years experience.

There's also a position at State in their Office of General Counsel.

Most people aren't interested in WC or criminal, but if you are, I'll give you some names. Otherwise, I assume you're strictly IP?

Did you take IP with Gerhardt? Are you a member of her facebook networking group?

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 11:13 AM. Reason : ]

4/13/2012 11:13:04 AM

Nah, not at all. I'm actually about to finish an LLM in Food and Agriculture Law. If this job doesn't pan out, my current plan is trying to find a small firm that will let me come in and work on transactional ag work like setting up farm plans, managing farm program payments, corporate work, etc.

Patent law was my original plan for going to law school, but it's like the least interesting stuff in the world in practice. I'm just applying for the USPTO because it's still easier to get than an actual legal job.

I took Trademark with Gerhardt, IP survey with Chin, though.

Hmm just realized you meant Office of General Counsel at NC State... That might be worth putting a resume in.

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 11:16 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 11:22 AM. Reason : ]

4/13/2012 11:15:50 AM

That sounds like a great plan. Let me know if you want to be added to Gerhardt's group. I don't know that anyone has found a job through it, but it's there if you want it.

4/13/2012 11:21:14 AM

Thanks. No call today from the General Assembly. I wonder if it would be in poor taste Monday to call and see if I was still in the running.

4/13/2012 7:03:04 PM

what were you trying to get at the General Assembly?

4/13/2012 7:22:38 PM

Research Division, legislative analyst gig

[Edited on April 13, 2012 at 7:32 PM. Reason : Wait isn't that where you were applying for an internship too?]

4/13/2012 7:31:24 PM

yep, thats where my first part of the summer is! Damn, it would be cool to have worked together, i hope you get the call!

4/13/2012 7:33:08 PM

Well if I get it I'd probably be starting around May 14. Would you still be there then?

What was it like when you got hired? I would have thought that after calling my references last Wednesday it wouldn't be much longer til I heard something. I hope they'd at least let me know if I didn't get it, anyway.

4/13/2012 7:34:54 PM

lol May 14 is my start date

in my experience they were pretty good at getting back, my contact was Mrs. McCraw - but I also had other offers that i was able to use as leverage to get a quick decision out of them

4/13/2012 7:37:56 PM

Ah, I've mostly been talking to Mr. Perry. I figured I'd give them til the end of the day today since that's the last day they said they might be making a decision, but I guess that didn't mean they had to tell me about it today, heh. If I don't hear Monday morning, I think I might just check and see if I've been eliminated or what. They told my references I was a finalist, but who knows what that means.

4/13/2012 7:45:29 PM

well ill be pulling for you, its somewhere i'd definitely like a job in a year so it'd be nice to have some TWW pull on the inside

you can pm me next week or update here if you want

4/13/2012 7:48:32 PM