Quote :

"We could start by creating a legal framework for free-range minibus service in the Raleigh area. "

LOL

is there any American city that uses a mini bus system?

6/26/2010 11:44:11 AM

This is all out of order. First you have to create an urban environment. Public transit is useless going from suburb to suburb. It will be viable for travel but not commute. Workers won't use it. Shoppers, tourists and others will though.

This might be the most sprawling area in the world. LA is sprawling but it has urban sprawl with several huuuge "cities" spread apart. Public transportation won't work without incentive for urban living. Raleigh/Wake county should do something like remove taxes on all development inside of 440.

6/26/2010 1:55:00 PM

^^ If you read the thread, you would see that New York does, but they operate illegally. Imagine how well they could serve their customers if they were allowed to legally operate. In economics studies, minibusses are the best solution for low density areas, because their capacity scales so dramatically and they can reroute several times a day to follow the demand. The same minibus (basically any van with seats) can plow one route in the morning for commuters, another route during the day for shoppers, then back to commuters in the evening.

6/27/2010 9:11:44 AM

This light rail was a pipe dream when they started talking about it years ago, and it still is. Everybody knows it's not going to work, but it sounds good politically. We'll all be worm bait before they build it.

6/27/2010 11:42:57 PM

I've gotta take the BART or BARTLINK from sf to vallejo. I know many of you are BART experts so let me know. thre online information is shaky.

7/1/2010 1:25:35 AM

Quote :

"Fast train route could detour Raleigh's scene BY BRUCE SICELOFF - Staff Writer Tags: news | transportation RALEIGH -- Brad Hurley says he appreciates what high-speed rail service will do for Raleigh, but he worries that a new plan for fast trains could kill a downtown corner where he has served beer and oysters for 23 years. "It sounds like 'pick your poison,' " said Hurley, co-owner of the 42nd Street Oyster Bar at Jones and West streets. Pulsing with pubs and eateries, Jones Street has become a crucial conduit between downtown Raleigh and the thriving Glenwood South district just west of railroad tracks that roll through the city. Quantcast Jones was a drab side street, with broken windows and padlocked doors, when the restaurant opened in 1987. If you stand at Hurley's corner today, you can see high-rise condos in three directions. The state Department of Transportation is evaluating two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast. Both Raleigh route options would constrict Jones Street but in dramatically different ways. The choice could help shape downtown growth for decades to come. "It's a very important decision," Mayor Charles Meeker said. "On one hand, we want passenger rail service with high-speed trains. On the other hand, we don't want the downtown to be hard to walk or drive around." Traffic flow is sure to change, because every street-rail crossing on the 162-mile track from Raleigh to Richmond will be either closed or replaced with a bridge. The aim is to prevent collisions with trains that would roll through Raleigh at 30 to 60 mph - and, farther up the line, as fast as 110 mph. The two routes under consideration would close different downtown streets in a two-mile stretch between Jones Street and Wake Forest Road. These tracks now carry freight trains past old residential neighborhoods - Five Points and Mordecai - on opposite sides of Capital Boulevard. If the DOT chose to follow Norfolk Southern tracks along Capital's west side, Jones Street would be closed at the rail crossing. That would sever the path to Glenwood South and the bars and restaurants east toward downtown. Pub crawlers would have to find a less direct route, passing under the tracks on North Street or over them on Hillsborough. Under the second option, using the CSX rail corridor on the east side of Capital Boulevard, Jones Street would stay open. But the street would be transformed into a giant viaduct, elevating Jones for almost four blocks between Boylan Avenue and Dawson Street. Cars and pedestrians would pass high above Glenwood, the train tracks and West Street - and bars and restaurants below. The CSX option also would close West and Harrington streets just north of Jones. The result: New barriers for residents and businesses just north and west of the CSX tracks. If, for instance, residents of the 17-story West at North condo tower wanted to dine at the 42nd Street Oyster Bar across the West Street tracks, they would have to circle a few blocks down to Hillsborough Street - and approach from the south. That prospect makes Hurley grimace. "Closing down Jones Street just makes me sick," he said. "But if they build that bridge and close down West Street, that might just put us out of business." Favored path emerges As restaurateurs, developers and downtown dwellers chew over the alternatives, an emerging consensus appears to share Hurley's view: The Norfolk Southern option would be less disruptive to the neighborhood, even though it would cut Jones Street in two. Nor would it cross West and Harrington, so both streets would remain open as vital paths for downtown commerce. No one has spoken up for putting Jones Street on stilts. "I'm not in favor of a bridge from Boylan Avenue that spans 1,300 feet and goes past Harrington, because it's going to destroy those businesses there," said Stephen Votino, 40, who overlooks the tracks from his fourth-floor apartment in Glenwood South. "And aesthetically, it's not going to look good." Niall Hanley, who has three restaurants along Glenwood, says closing West and Harrington would isolate Glenwood South from the rest of downtown. Turning Jones into a big bridge would be worse than closing it at the tracks, he said. "I would hate to lose two streets and have this monstrous viaduct," Hanley said. Federal rail design standards require crossings to be closed or bridged only if trains run faster than 110 mph. North Carolina would have the option to keep some crossings open, with multiple safety gates and other protections to reduce the chance of trains hitting cars and pedestrians. But state DOT officials say it will be much safer not to have people walking or driving across the tracks. "We're not going 110 mph in downtown Raleigh, but we know the safest way to design a transportation system for the future is to separate highway and rail," said Pat Simmons, the state DOT Rail Division director. Downtown commerce and traffic aren't the only factors that will come into play as city, state and federal agencies weigh the choices. Historic properties and environmental questions must be considered, but they don't appear to make a significant difference for the two options. The Norfolk Southern route would displace as many as 54 businesses including warehouses, building and auto supply shops, a taxi stand and possibly a concrete firm served by the freight tracks. The CSX route would displace up to 23 businesses. Five Points residents have expressed concern that the Norfolk Southern option would close a rail crossing at Fairview Road. But some dropped their objections when they learned that a closed crossing means approaching trains no longer would sound their horns. Still, not everyone is on board with the Norfolk Southern route - least of all, Norfolk Southern. The new track would pass through a rail yard where switching engines move freight cars around and assemble them into trains, and it would displace the railroad's local office. Its passenger policy director, John V. Edwards, warned city officials in a June 9 letter that routing high-speed trains through the Norfolk Southern corridor would worsen rail congestion, cause environmental and economic harm, and undermine the city's plans for a combined Amtrak and transit depot on West Hargett Street. CSX has not commented on the proposals. Residential effects Neither proposal would displace any residences, but the Norfolk Southern route would slice through the backyards of four homes on Bickett Boulevard, in the historic Roanoke Park neighborhood near Five Points. Scott Kauffman doesn't want to lose his garage and about half of the lush backyard he and his cat share with a surprising variety of urban wildlife: a red-tailed hawk, a raccoon and feral felines that jump off passing freight trains to raid the pet-food bowl on his porch. Recently his personal park attracted another wild visitor: a coyote. "This is a little sanctuary for me," said Kauffman, 50, a nurse anesthetist. "With Capital Boulevard nearby, you would think it would be noisy. But it's so quiet here when I'm sitting on my porch." By early next year, DOT officials expect to pick their preferred route for the entire Raleigh-to-Richmond line. Then they'll push for federal funding to finish the engineering work, buy the necessary right of way, and start construction. The trains could be rolling as soon as 2017 if everything works out, but North Carolina will be competing with other states for money to build the national high-speed rail network envisioned by President Barack Obama. North Carolina and Virginia won $620 million in federal high-speed rail grants this year and are seeking about $3 billion more to build the new line. "This is really the new interstate system," said Greg Hatem, a downtown Raleigh developer with properties on both sides of the tracks. "The impact is going to be similar, and I don't think a lot of other communities are preparing for this. We need to be sure we embrace the concept, and have the best solution for downtown Raleigh." bruce.siceloff@newsobserver.com or 919-829-4527"

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/07/11/574167/fast-train-route-could-detour.html

7/11/2010 11:10:14 AM

Quote :

"riangle planners have for several years tried to win federal aid for a light rail system"

Fuck that. Why in the hell should someone in, say, Wyoming have to pay for the Triangle area to have mass transit?

Beyond that, how could this even conceivably be reconciled with the U.S Constitution? Even the tortured logic with things like ridiculous interpretations of the commerce clause can't be applied on this one.

7/11/2010 11:20:44 AM

doubled up

[Edited on July 11, 2010 at 11:50 AM. Reason : x2]

7/11/2010 11:48:03 AM

they're probably figuring that if the federal government paid for an interstate road system that they might pay for an interstate rail system because of

Quote :

"The state Department of Transportation is evaluating two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

but all of this junk always brings me back to the lols that was

7/11/2010 11:50:37 AM

a case could be made for interstate rail, if you were willing to take a little liberty in your interpretation of the law. a local system for the Triangle...I don't see how anyone can argue for that.

...not to mention the common sense factor: how can you ask the rest of the country to pay for something like that for YOU?

7/11/2010 11:57:22 AM

because we've already paid for similar systems all over the country. Norfolk/Virginia Beach is putting one in now under federal grant money, so why not us?

7/11/2010 12:10:59 PM

Lol at "underground" in downtown Raleigh


A light rail would be nice but like theDuke says

Quote :

"Why in the hell should someone in, say, Wyoming have to pay for the Triangle area to have mass transit?"

7/11/2010 12:19:57 PM

^^^^I would pay 98% tax if the government would create that world.

7/11/2010 1:12:12 PM

light rail is dead in RTP unless the fed government pays for half of it. the fed government has wisely stopped throwing money out (stopped in the bush admin, though obama is spending money in the midwest for megarails).

unfortunately, there seems to be this "poor black" connotation with buses in the affulent communities of RTP that pretty much kills the idea of significant ridership among the current public transit options.... which makes it hard to make a convincing case that MORE public transit would be a good idea.

7/11/2010 1:28:57 PM

^So what you're saying is we need white buses and black buses?

I kid, I kid.

7/11/2010 1:51:24 PM

Na, it's like this:

"Man, I'm not going to take the bus, that's what the poor black people do."

I live in Chicago now, and my brother (we all grew up in NC and transplanted) was resistant to take the train... there is definitely a connotation of "poor, minority" when it comes to any public transportation.

7/11/2010 1:58:50 PM

Quote :

"But the street would be transformed into a giant viaduct, elevating Jones for almost four blocks between Boylan Avenue and Dawson Street. Cars and pedestrians would pass high above Glenwood, the train tracks and West Street - and bars and restaurants below. The CSX option also would close West and Harrington streets just north of Jones."

That seems really unnecessary. That part of Jones St is a hole in the ground anyway. I say just put a viaduct from Glenwood to West over the tracks with a "No Trucks" sign on it. Then they can just give me the tens of millions that they were going to blow and we'll call it even.

Quote :

"Brad Hurley says he appreciates what high-speed rail service will do for Raleigh, but he worries that a new plan for fast trains could kill a downtown corner where he has served beer and oysters for 23 years."

hehe. i screwed my manager on his desk.

7/11/2010 4:24:46 PM

I guess no matter what type of infrastructure you propose, you can't change the recurring theme of american arrogance/white privilege.

7/11/2010 10:31:43 PM

You're the biggest racist on TWW.

7/12/2010 12:50:42 PM

nah just a troll and not very good at it either

7/12/2010 12:51:35 PM

I don't understand this whole "cut off" one part of downtown from the rest. Why don't they just construct a few tunnels like on NCSU's campus, only nicer?

7/12/2010 1:02:16 PM

AHAHA how am I a racist?


^You don't have to cut off anything. Nothing needs to be underground. This isn't nyc. You could just put the tracks on the streets and reduce the amount of lanes on those streets or make them one way instead of two way.

7/12/2010 9:06:44 PM

Quote :

"Why don't they just construct a few tunnels like on NCSU's campus, only nicer?"

That's what I'm not understanding either. It seems you could have a tunnel underneath the tracks to continue the flow of traffic. Make the clearance high enough for passenger vehicles and it seems the problem is mostly solved.

7/12/2010 11:40:11 PM

that costs at least ten times more and is an old way of doing things. we're talking about 3 or 4 car trains here people. this isn't an actual heavy rail.

7/13/2010 5:13:45 AM

Do you read any of the articles posted in this thread? Bc your posts make no sense.

7/13/2010 8:26:45 AM

People seem to be confused here. Marko's article above is referring to a high speed rail corridor through the city, not light rail.

7/13/2010 8:30:20 AM

I don't even really understand why a high speed rail system between two mid-sized large cities is even necessary. Is there really high demand for a high speed rail between Raleigh and Richmond? I mean obviously they have done their due diligence but I just don't see it.

I can't believe they will essentially make Jones a dead-end ultimately...

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 8:37 AM. Reason : x]

7/13/2010 8:36:21 AM

Quote :

"Why don't they just construct a few tunnels like on NCSU's campus, only nicer?"

The geology downtown is different from that on NCSU's campus. They're both in the Raleigh Belt but the bed rock around NCSU is consistent whereas downtown it's folded with many dikes and ledges.

Anytime you're excavating rock, it gets about 5x more expensive.

7/13/2010 8:49:27 AM

Quote :

"I don't even really understand why a high speed rail system between two mid-sized large cities is even necessary. Is there really high demand for a high speed rail between Raleigh and Richmond?"

Because it will go beyond those two cities to Atlanta in the south and Philadelphia in the north once it's complete.

7/13/2010 9:02:35 AM

Quote :

"how am I a racist?"

You're the idiot who brings up race in every discussion, even with things like this where this issue is more socio-economic than anything.

You throw around "white privilege" like a child throws around a word after it learns it's meaning for the first time, as if throwing out your hollow catch phrase as often as possible is going to make you appear insightful. You assume that everyone else is a closeted racist who lacks your understanding, but in reality the vast majority of people don't give a shit about race anymore. Bringing it up as often as you do lets you feel like you've got a high horse, when in reality you're just a fucking idiot.

7/13/2010 2:37:51 PM

Quote :

"unfortunately, there seems to be this "poor black" connotation with buses in the affulent communities of RTP that pretty much kills the idea of significant ridership among the current public transit options.... which makes it hard to make a convincing case that MORE public transit would be a good idea. "

That is sad. Although that's what everyone said about the light-rail in Charlotte and now a bunch of middle income young professionals are moving into new developtments all up and down south Blvd and using the light rail to commute into town. They have over 25,000 riders per day on a 9.6 mile route.

Now that the new money came in they're planning on constructing the route out Central Ave which should revitalize that entire area. I take the bus everyday and you'd be surprized at the amount of people who use it. I guess Raleigh's a different story. It's hard to get past that poor connotation associated with buses though.

7/13/2010 2:55:16 PM

Quote :

"The geology downtown is different from that on NCSU's campus. They're both in the Raleigh Belt but the bed rock around NCSU is consistent whereas downtown it's folded with many dikes and ledges."

Fair enough. Then what about pedestrian overpasses? I fail to see how having a rail line will cut off some bars and restaurants. Last time I checked most people didn't bar hop via automobile. They walk instead. Seems like it'd just be a minor inconvenience rather than something that will shut down bars/restaurants.

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 3:03 PM. Reason : meh]

7/13/2010 3:00:33 PM

^That could work as long as they're high enough for truck clearances.

Associated problems: By the time you walk up enough stairs to get 13' or more, cross over the street, and walk back down stairs, you could have just crossed the street twice. ADA ramps would require a huge amount of room and switch backs to keep the right grade and get above the street.

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 3:50 PM. Reason : We need tubes like on futurama.]

7/13/2010 3:50:05 PM

yevgeniy moundous a student, ncsu signed it

[Edited on July 13, 2010 at 4:09 PM. Reason : ste]

7/13/2010 4:06:51 PM

^^the handicap are SOL in this case. They should drive to the next bar anyway.

7/13/2010 4:22:09 PM

I guess no matter what type of infrastructure you propose, you can't change the recurring theme of non-cripple privilege.

7/13/2010 4:32:57 PM

^This. hahaha

7/13/2010 5:06:21 PM

Quote :

"but in reality the vast majority of people don't give a shit about race anymore"

and that shows their insensitivity to racial issues. Racial injustices still exist and if you don't give a shit about them then you're ignoring them thus letting them persist. You're part of the problem by being out of touch.

Not caring about race is not enough. If it was that way from the beginning then it would've been fine but its a bit late for that.

Quote :

"? I fail to see how having a rail line will cut off some bars and restaurants. Last time I checked most people didn't bar hop via automobile"

In San diego, all the trolley (light rail) lines are made into the street and you would never notice them if the trains didn't pass by every ten minutes. People can just walk across them, cars can drive down them and the stations don't consist of anything but a few benches and a curb. Very very small footprint we're talking about here.

7/14/2010 12:45:03 AM

Quote :

"In San diego, all the trolley (light rail) lines are made into the street and you would never notice them if the trains didn't pass by every ten minutes. "

This article isn't talking about light rail though. It's talking about heavy rail.

Quote :

"yevgeniy moundous a student, ncsu signed it "

Is this English

[Edited on July 14, 2010 at 2:48 AM. Reason : a]

7/14/2010 2:44:14 AM

Quote :

"In San diego, all the trolley (light rail) lines are made into the street and you would never notice them if the trains didn't pass by every ten minutes. People can just walk across them, cars can drive down them and the stations don't consist of anything but a few benches and a curb. Very very small footprint we're talking about here"

Next time try reading the thread instead of just trolling.

7/14/2010 8:49:58 AM

Quote :

"Racial injustices still exist and if you don't give a shit about them then you're ignoring them thus letting them persist."

Like what?

7/14/2010 12:17:07 PM

If you "don't give a shit" about race and racial issues then you are insensitive to the victims of racism.

If doctors "didn't give a shit" about a certain disease, they would be screwing over everyone who had that disease.

Also, its a light rail thread not a heavy rail thread so nice try.

7/14/2010 7:32:37 PM

This is a thread about rail, not a racial debate.

7/14/2010 7:37:58 PM

you're getting trolled, dawg

7/14/2010 8:42:32 PM

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

Quote :

"two routes through Raleigh for the Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor, which would give passenger trains a fast new shortcut to Richmond, Va. The proposed new track would cut nearly two hours from train trips between North Carolina and the Northeast."

7/14/2010 9:34:48 PM

Did someone say High Speed Rail Corridor?

[Edited on July 14, 2010 at 11:49 PM. Reason : -]

7/14/2010 11:49:31 PM

They can bulldoze all of glenwood south for all I care.

7/14/2010 11:58:05 PM

first off, why the fuck would you bother routing HSR through downtown? run it past the airport with a amtrak station near by (or light rail to the amtrak station)

there's little parking in downtown. why would you make that worse?

7/15/2010 12:10:58 AM

^ My guess would be because the infrastructure of a train station already exists downtown and doesn't exist near the airport, keeping costs down.

Really though there should be a downtown stop AND an airport stop on the heavy rail line. Limited expresses can skip over the airport and rapid trains can stop at the airport.

7/15/2010 12:34:27 AM

once you factor in the cost of the improved or enlarged station in downtown, parking issues, etc i think the cost kinda swings back the other way.

not to mention business disruptions and lost tax revenue...

7/15/2010 4:05:14 AM