thanks for immediately forming an opinion about what i meant and not letting me clarify what i meant

i also enjoy the name calling...really shows the class and manners of a serious debater

7/28/2006 1:17:02 PM

7/28/2006 1:18:15 PM

i kinda didnt understand why he rolled his eyes at me in a thread earlier...all i said is i know more white "niggers" than black "niggers"

7/28/2006 1:22:32 PM

little known fact

most niggers are actually chinese....chinese

7/28/2006 1:23:43 PM

Quote :

"TreeTwista10: i wonder if the jews are gonna vote primarily republican in the 08 elections since they primarily have voted democrat in recent elections but the republicans are the ones who seem to actually care about israel"

The rumblings of a departure from the Democratic party were already underway before these recent events.

I've always been especially disappointed by the number of black people who are racist/prejudiced against Jewish people because so many Jews were such hardcore civil rights supporters when it wasn't a popular issue to take up for or even discuss.

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 1:46 PM. Reason : sss]

7/28/2006 1:46:14 PM

Quote :

"That is an outright lie. The Jews were accepted as immigrants. The Arabs had no problem with the Jews immigrating and living there, until they realized that they had plans to create their own state and displace the Arabs there in doing so. I'd be pretty fucking angry myself, if the illegal immigrants all congregated together and tried to form their own state kicking me off my land in the process."

Displace the Arabs? The settled originally in unoccupied areas that the Arabs didn't want to live in. And if the same thing happened here with the mexican immigrants, they would be squashed because we have a strong government, economy and military.

The Palestinians on the other hand have had fragile theocracies, small warring milias and extremely weak economies incapable of even supporting a way.

Quote :

"And I don't blame them. I wouldn't accept peace until every piece of land that was stolen from me was back in my possesion."

It's absolutely their decision to do that, I agree. But as a result, I have no fucking sympathy for them, they are trying to fight a war they cannot win. Israel is not going to be toppled militarily by any country in the middle east. Apparently many of you have some serious problems distinguishing Idealism and Reality.

Quote :

"Lies. There are plenty of places to go. If the US cares about the Jews so much, why don't they give them land here? Oh yeah, i know why: cause that would require that Americans give up something of their own, which most are unwilling to do. But this country has ZERO problem asking/forcing others to give of themselves."

Lies? Are you smoking crack? Do you have any idea of the economic impact of relocating several million people? And the American Zionists are already here in the US and we are completely happy to have them here. They don't need to establish their own state within the US because we give equal rights and opportunity to our immigrants.

7/28/2006 2:54:14 PM

Quote :

"If you dont have a specific rationale and methodology to identify the difference, then you are just blowing hot air out your ass."

No, it's simply not something I, or anyone else can directly answer. It's like asking "how do you win a war?". No one can answer that with one general answer, it depends on the situation.

Quote :

"This is a guerilla war and it has to be fought as such."

Fighting agianst a guerilla war does NOT JUSTIFY KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS

NOTHING JUSTIFIES KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS
why is this concept so difficult for you? You think that arabs killing innocent jews is wrong, why is it so difficult to accept that jews killing innocent arabs is wrong as well?

Quote :

"you cannot take a civilized path to defeat them"

Then niether side is justified. Both deserve to lose, both are animals.

Quote :

"They want, and rightfully so, freedom and equality for their people."

They want to remove a native people from their native lands by violence and use the land for their own purposes. That is not acceptable.

Quote :

"Had Palestine accepted the Jews as immigrants, and folded them into an equal rights representative government, none of this would have been an issue."

They did untill the Jews started gunning down innocent people and stealing their land, then the BRITISH STARTED PUTTING LIMITATIONS ON JEWISH IMMIGRATION. Look into Etzel and Lehi, The jews gained their land through terrorism.

Quote :

"they rejected the Jews as outcasts, and wanted to REMOVE THEM BY FORCE"

You mean like shelling their homes and bulldozing the remains?

Quote :

"As much as I'm sure it hurts your bleeding liberal heart, the right to land is based on military might."

Not in the modern civilized world. That's simply not acceptable. The right to land must at times be maintained by force, but it is not established by it.

Quote :

"Palestine refuses to recognize Israel"

Palestine doesn't even really exist anymore. Since their government has been destroied there is no one left to speak for them but the wacko terorrists.

Quote :

"You can't displace one population in the name of another."

That's what I've been trying to explain to you. You are arguing that Israel can displace palestine simply because they've got more guns.

Quote :

"The settled originally in unoccupied areas that the Arabs didn't want to live in."

Then they started gunning the people down in nearby native villages and pushing them out through violence and terror. Now they just use missles and bulldozers

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 3:00 PM. Reason : ]

7/28/2006 2:58:58 PM

Quote :

"NOTHING JUSTIFIES KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS why is this concept so difficult for you? You think that arabs killing innocent jews is wrong, why is it so difficult to accept that jews killing innocent arabs is wrong as well? "

it is the arabs fault that they fire rockets into crowded israeli towns...its not israels fault that arabs use other arabs as human shields...so its actually arabs fault that innocent arabs are dying...and your right, there is no justification for it

7/28/2006 3:03:19 PM

Quote :

"Then niether side is justified. Both deserve to lose, both are animals"

so i guess your only solution would be to completely stop fighting from both sides

which is impossible so i guess you have no solution

7/28/2006 4:03:51 PM

Kris: You are backing yourself into a paradox.

You are basing your argument on the premise that is Israel hadn't attacked, no civilians would be dying. No matter what they do, civilians will die. Either Israelis will die from terrorists or Palestinians and Lebanese will die from military action. One or the other WILL HAPPEN. There is no ACTUAL alternative here.

I don't think any of us will argue with your principle. I'm certainly not. I absolutely agree that in a perfect world any and all violence is stupid and ignorant. But we are dealing with reality here. The reality is people are dying every day. And unless some major action is taken to change the current course of events, they will continue to die everyday. To possibly stem the tide of violence for the longterm, people are going to die.

Quote :

"Fighting agianst a guerilla war does NOT JUSTIFY KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS NOTHING JUSTIFIES KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS why is this concept so difficult for you? You think that arabs killing innocent jews is wrong, why is it so difficult to accept that jews killing innocent arabs is wrong as well? "

Nothing Justifies it, but it will happen. Accidents happen every day. We are humans, we are fallable. I'm not saying it's not wrong. I'm saying that something has to happen to curb the killings longterm, and this is pretty much the only way its going to happen.

Quote :

"No, it's simply not something I, or anyone else can directly answer. It's like asking "how do you win a war?". No one can answer that with one general answer, it depends on the situation."

Actually, yes they can. A book written several thousand years ago, The Art of War, by Sun Tzu, systematically outlines how to win a war, how to operate in battle and how to carry on campaigns. It's the treatise that has been used in conflicts by every major super power in modern times.

You can directly answer it by providing us a framework from which we can identify the difference situation by situation. You still are speaking completely hot air.

7/28/2006 5:59:18 PM

Quote :

"You are basing your argument on the premise that is Israel hadn't attacked, no civilians would be dying."

No I'm not. I've said several times, my problem is israel indiscriminately leveling civilian structures and launching rockets everywhere. I want them to take the method that results in the smallest loss in civilian life, that being the one that we are currently using in iraq, ground troops.

Quote :

"The Art of War, by Sun Tzu, systematically outlines how to win a war, how to operate in battle and how to carry on campaigns."

Then I assume it's the chink version of "The Prince". The point was that you can tell guerillas from civilians, guerillas are the ones attacking you.

7/28/2006 6:13:24 PM

Quote :

"It's absolutely their decision to do that, I agree. But as a result, I have no fucking sympathy for them, they are trying to fight a war they cannot win. Israel is not going to be toppled militarily by any country in the middle east."

You know why they can't win that war? because of Americas favoritism to helping israel for eternity.

That favoritism created this extremist ideaology that figures they might as well just try to kill alot of innocent americans and israelis until they begin to show sympathy and see them as humans too. If that doesn't work then they figure "hey, at least we got a little revenge"

I don't agree with the approach, but I understand it and until we show some sympathy, these "frustration attacks" will continue to happen with some possible future frustration nucs.

and on the next 9/11 I will think about all the people who are now saying "when killing civilians is the only way to defeat your opponent, thats what you have to do" towards israel.

I will also point my finger at Israel and America (and people like NEON) for pissing these people off just as much as I will blame the people behind the attacks that kill my fellow Americans.

7/28/2006 6:23:32 PM

and if israel doesn't accept this mere 72 hour humanitarian cease fire from the un they are officially a thug nation'


do it for the civilians israel.

7/28/2006 6:35:55 PM

Quote :

"The point was that you can tell guerillas from civilians, guerillas are the ones attacking you."

and the cool thing is....with all the technology we have today...you can also program 2 ton bombs to only kill guerillas and not civilians even though the civilians standing right next to the guerillas

7/28/2006 7:30:41 PM

Quote :

"and the cool thing is....with all the technology we have today...you can also program 2 ton bombs to only kill guerillas and not civilians even though the civilians standing right next to the guerillas"

Ok, then explain all the civilian casualties.

7/28/2006 7:43:41 PM

There is no possible way he was being sarcastic.

[Edited on July 28, 2006 at 7:52 PM. Reason : asdfasd]

7/28/2006 7:51:37 PM

I thought he was suggesting that as an alternitive to ground troops.

I mean if they had supermissles, I don't think there'd be any problem with using them.

I've got a question for this thread. I often hear "Hamas/etc. are crazy, they say israel has no right to exist!". My question is, what is israel's right to exist?

7/28/2006 8:24:18 PM

Quote :

"Israeli attack hits building, killing many children * 60 reported killed, including 19 children * Israel: "tragedy," "mistake," Hezbollah targeted * U.N. Security Council meets today * Rice heading back to Washington"

-CNN Homepage.

Who in the Israeli chain of command thought that dropping 2000lb bombs in cities wouldn't do crap like this?

7/30/2006 1:29:28 PM

they knew. its called 'war'.

7/30/2006 1:40:25 PM

hmmm...

[Edited on July 30, 2006 at 2:04 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2006 2:01:24 PM

Quote :

"No I'm not. I've said several times, my problem is israel indiscriminately leveling civilian structures and launching rockets everywhere. I want them to take the method that results in the smallest loss in civilian life, that being the one that we are currently using in iraq, ground troops."

Now I know you don't have any fucking clue what you are talking about.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

More civilians are killed every week in Iraq due to ground fighting than will be killed in this entire conflict with Israel and Lebanon.

It once again shows you know NOTHING about warfare and the reality of it. Ground attacks have always, for the entire history of warfare, resulted in the biggest body counts, both civilian and military (excluding of course the atomic bombs)

Quote :

"I've got a question for this thread. I often hear "Hamas/etc. are crazy, they say israel has no right to exist!". My question is, what is israel's right to exist?"

I've already answered your question. They have military might. That is their right. If Hamas had the power to take out Israel, then they would be.

Quote :

"That favoritism created this extremist ideaology that figures they might as well just try to kill alot of innocent americans and israelis until they begin to show sympathy and see them as humans too. If that doesn't work then they figure "hey, at least we got a little revenge""

Wrong. And the way to showing your humanity is not through killing innocent bystanders. And it should be pretty fucking apparent now that suicide attacks and terrorism aren't ever going to achieve their aims against super powers. All it does is force the US and it's allies deeper into their trenches and MORE prone to imperialist invasion to protect their assets.

Quote :

"I will also point my finger at Israel and America (and people like NEON) for pissing these people off just as much as I will blame the people behind the attacks that kill my fellow Americans."

Pissing these people off? You mean the people who just launched another 90 rockets into Israel? Nothing I can do, or Israel can do beyond leaving their land, or the US can do other than stop existing, is going to "stop pissing them off".

That's the whole key to extremism. It's predicated on the reality that there's no end to the goal. There's no way you can ACTUALLY win. Instead they recruit people, brainwash them, accumulate wealth, power and resources of their own, and let all their followers do the dying for them.

7/30/2006 4:39:09 PM

well you say israels right to exist is military might. we are the reason for thier military might so we give israel the right to exist. if we give israel the right to exist then it is we that are opressing the arabs/stealing their land. there is no way israel would have a supermilitary/exist if it wasn't for us.

7/30/2006 4:53:51 PM

we gave and continue to give Israel equipment and arms because China and North Korea continue to funnel arms to Iran and Syria.

We had to have some kind of diplomatic and military foothold into the middle east. The Saudi's fucked us, Iraq fucked us, Iran fucked us. At least with Israel we know we are both on the same page.

You want the US to stop funneling supplies and money to Israel? Go talk to the rest of the middle east and convince them to stop taking supplies and arms from militant dicatorships bent on fucking the world up.

It's never as clearcut as it's made out to be, which is why extremism works so well. You make sure your followers kill themselves before they have time to question their purpose.

7/30/2006 5:19:52 PM

hey cxmai...

WHY DID YOU POST PICTURES OF PEOPLE WITH FAKE BURNS AND TRY TO PASS THEM OFF AS POOR LEBANESE KIDS????
WHY DID YOU POST PICTURES OF PEOPLE WITH FAKE BURNS AND TRY TO PASS THEM OFF AS POOR LEBANESE KIDS????
WHY DID YOU POST PICTURES OF PEOPLE WITH FAKE BURNS AND TRY TO PASS THEM OFF AS POOR LEBANESE KIDS????
WHY DID YOU POST PICTURES OF PEOPLE WITH FAKE BURNS AND TRY TO PASS THEM OFF AS POOR LEBANESE KIDS????
WHY DID YOU POST PICTURES OF PEOPLE WITH FAKE BURNS AND TRY TO PASS THEM OFF AS POOR LEBANESE KIDS????

7/30/2006 5:35:02 PM

7/31/2006 12:23:16 AM

This is a Video from Congressman Paul Findley talking about How the Jews of Israel control the Congress therefor the American Government through their Lobby "AIPAC"

This guy worked in the government for more than 22 years:

the Video is a bit long but trust me you need to hear every word he says.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3252642434022358005&q=israel

Wikipedia link about "AIPAC": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIPAC

[b] Be a Patriot send this Video to as many people as you CAN, because [b] The U.S FUTURE IS IN YOUR HAND

8/2/2006 2:26:17 AM

Quote :

"i wonder if the jews are gonna vote primarily republican in the 08 elections since they primarily have voted democrat in recent elections but the republicans are the ones who seem to actually care about israel"

Extraordinarily doubtful for two reasons.

1) American Jews are extremely left leaning until you hit the very top of the money line where they become more interested in the Republican rhetoric. You'll be hard pressed to find a Republican Jew in anything under the top of the upper middle class. It has to do, in a lot of ways, with the stereotypical values passed through American Jewish homes and temples.

2) American Jews realize Israel is a complete and utter clusterfuck and, in my experience, seem reluctant to really associate themselves with the comings and goings of Israel unless their temple is taking up a collection for the (literal) children of Israel. We're not really swayed at all by the pumping of military money and support into a country that we all desire peace in.

8/2/2006 2:41:00 AM

8/2/2006 2:47:49 AM