Quote :

"It seems people are just basing everything off of their emotions and empathy for a "hungry poor person far away from home" and completely ignoring the logical aspect that these people are breaking the law every day...you guys are aware that every day they work tax free, they are breaking laws...and every day they even live in the US without documentation they are breaking laws...I would call that perpetual lawbreakers, but if you'd rather say "aww...they have it so bad" then I guess I can't reason with your emotions"

That's a question-begging argument, it's a known type of logical fallacy. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html

You can't expect others to make sense of your inherently illogical statements, then claim THEY'RE the ones not being logical.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 5:56 PM. Reason : type]

6/5/2007 5:55:53 PM

there's not going to be any easy answer to this problem. the most pragmatic thing to do though is to step up enforcement along with giving them some avenue for getting into the system.

6/5/2007 5:59:27 PM

I don't want this to get lost in the jump:

Quote :

"Hey Tree, did you get the artist's permission before embedding that song into your account profile?"

6/5/2007 6:08:54 PM

^ He'll just ignore it. Didn't you see our exchange? Only tree gets to decides what laws are good, and what are bad.

6/5/2007 6:16:30 PM

Ahahah, I almost forgot about marijuana

6/5/2007 6:26:02 PM

Quote :

"every day they even live in the US without documentation they are breaking laws"

Which laws are they breaking? I'm curious. I know that it is illegal to enter the country without unlawfully, and I know that it is illegal to overstay a visa. These infractions occur when a person crosses a border or "forgets" to leave.

But where is the law that says you must be documented while living here? And what is the penalty for breaking that law?

6/5/2007 6:37:57 PM

Quote :

"did you get the artist's permission before embedding that song into your account profile?"

I'm not hosting that song so I don't see how theres anything wrong with that...but why would a high school history teacher know anything about copyright law?

^its illegal to earn more than a certain amount of money and not pay income tax, for starters...so every day they work, not only are they breaking the law, they're not paying their share of taxes for all the services they use...how much is one guy gonna cost? you may ask...maybe not too much...but how about 12 million guys?

moron whats illogical about my position that people shouldnt be rewarded for breaking the law? also i hate to burst your bubble, but my argument was not a logical fallacy...you might want to study up on your definitions

Quote :

"He'll just ignore it. Didn't you see our exchange?"

seriously boonedocks did you see our exchange on Page 2? check that shit out to see how big of an idiot your boy is

6/5/2007 6:54:01 PM

Quote :

"moron whats illogical about my position that people shouldnt be rewarded for breaking the law? "

In the context of illegal immigration, it's a trite, meaningless statement. It doesn't nothing to even hint at the problem, let alone progress to a solution.

And your position is logically fallacious. You seem to be saying that illegal immigration is wrong because it's illegal, which is circular reasoning. Can't you see that?

6/5/2007 7:48:27 PM

You're not hosting it? Does this guy:

http://www.grategatsby.com/

know that you're linking to his illegal content? I don't think this is legal, either.


PS: is this you?

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 8:31 PM. Reason : .]

6/5/2007 8:29:07 PM

thats a wolfwebber's site and he let me use some ftp space once

i prefer not to reveal who it is though

^^how come you dont see anything wrong with illegal immigration?

6/5/2007 8:58:23 PM

But just to be clear,

you two are breaking copyright law, correct?

One could say you're continually breaking it on a daily basis, every time someone checks your profile.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 9:03 PM. Reason : .]

6/5/2007 9:02:43 PM

why am i not the least bit surprised you harp on one little thing while not giving a shit that 12 million people dont pay taxes

maybe if i had done some more serious crimes i would be ok with you

ps: you've probably broken the law every time you clicked on my profile, which obviously for the record, i didnt create, and have never clicked on

6/5/2007 9:07:29 PM

It would probably cost more in taxes to round up and ship 12 million people back to Mexico and then spring for a huge wall and salaries for people to guard the border to make sure they don't come back than the actual losses incurred by those people not paying their taxes.

I thought most illegals forged social security cards and the whole nine yards so they could get jobs anyway. You know, the jobs where they would have to pay that income tax.

Quote :

"not only are they breaking the law, they're not paying their share of taxes for all the services they use..."

We should probably round up and kick out every person that earns a living off of tips while we are at it. Most people that I know in the waitstaff industry cheat on their taxes. Might as well throw children, the unemployed, and the homeless in while we're at it.

Quote :

"Why would I want to pay $5,000 and start paying taxes when currently I don't have to do any of that?"

If I was in the country illegally I'd plop down 5K at the chance of being here legitimately without so much as a second though. I'd sleep better knowing that I would no longer run the risk of being deported at any given moment and then having to pay a coyote more than the 5K to get back. I see what you are saying though. If you aren't already paying taxes then why would you want to start? I'm just saying what I'd do.

[Edited on June 5, 2007 at 10:43 PM. Reason : -]

6/5/2007 10:37:17 PM

Poor people with dependent families don't pay income tax. However, illegal immigrants do often make social security payments that they will never benefit from.

6/5/2007 10:38:17 PM

i get paid alittle under 30k and I dont pay shit in taxes from my pay checks.

so how is a mexican going to support anything when he makes 15k.

6/5/2007 11:30:42 PM

Quote :

"how come you dont see anything wrong with illegal immigration?"

I can't see anything morally or ethically wrong with someone working hard to provide for their family, which represents the majority of illegal immigrants (and most people, really).

I do see that illegal immigration causes problems though in some situations, as far as impact on certain services. "Securing the borders" whatever that means isn't going to solve those existing problems (or any problem), and deportation is not feasible (12 million people to take care of, and 50% of them are not bus rides).

Aggressively going after employers is feasible, but not politically palatable, but I wouldn't have too much of a problem with this. This would take a long time to have an impact though.

I think the best solution is to allow more immigrants in legally from south of the border, make it easier for the ones here to get legal residence, while increasing border security and existing efforts regarding illegal immigrations. This would go far to fixing the tax issue, which would help fix the impacts to gov. services on the local level. And in the long run, decrease the demand for illegal immigration, since employers now would have to legally provide certain benefits to immigrant workers, it would remove economic incentives to hiring them over existing Americans.

It has nothing to do with "rewarding" people, or thinking with your heart.

6/6/2007 12:15:53 AM

Quote :

"i get paid alittle under 30k"

LOL, a good portion of Mexicans make more money than you do. I know that back at my old company, most of the Mexicans were making $15-$25 an hour and they were working lots of overtime. Some of them even owned houses, which is not easy to do out in Southern California.

Oh yeah, and they always had semi-valid paperwork that allowed them to get paychecks and us to report their earnings. They all claimed like 10 dependents each, and I really doubt that they filed their taxes on April 15th.

6/6/2007 12:52:04 AM

I think they should all be granted amnesty because well, last time I checked, we are the ones here illegally.The process for a Mexican to legally come into the United States needs to become much easier. It simply takes too much time and money to get a visa that it is not feasible for a poor immigrant. They are left with no choice but to come over the other way. Then when they arrive many things are setup for them to be deported so they usually have to go without drivers license, insurance and maybe even english legibility. I applaud companies like bankofamerica that now has a homeloan program setup where they can work a job for a year and obtain a state income no verification home loan based on their occupation and good faith. I'm also confident that more whites steal cars, drive drunk and kill people than mexican immigrants.

God bless immigration. God bless America.

6/6/2007 3:49:01 AM

Quote :

"I think they should all be granted amnesty because well, last time I checked, we are the ones here illegally."

By what legal body?

Quote :

"The process for a Mexican to legally come into the United States needs to become much easier. It simply takes too much time and money to get a visa that it is not feasible for a poor immigrant. They are left with no choice but to come over the other way."

That's kinda true, but...

Quote :

"Then when they arrive many things are setup for them to be deported so they usually have to go without drivers license, insurance and maybe even english legibility. "

This is not. It's somewhat rare for an illegal to get deported, because there's not really a unified system set up to deport them.

The drivers license/insurance thing is kinda true (there are loopholes that are often used), and would be solved by an "amnesty" type program.

Quote :

"I applaud companies like bankofamerica that now has a homeloan program setup where they can work a job for a year and obtain a state income no verification home loan based on their occupation and good faith. I'm also confident that more whites steal cars, drive drunk and kill people than mexican immigrants."

The Bank of America programs should have no bearing on the illegal immigration debate.

The crime thing is meaningless because whites are worse for most things by pure numbers, because they're the majority population group.

6/6/2007 5:11:32 AM

Quote :

"Which laws are they breaking? I'm curious. I know that it is illegal to enter the country without unlawfully, and I know that it is illegal to overstay a visa. These infractions occur when a person crosses a border or "forgets" to leave. But where is the law that says you must be documented while living here? And what is the penalty for breaking that law?"

I was wondering this yesterday as well. They broke one law by entering the country, but since they don't have visas they really aren't overstaying.

They'll never collect social security or medicare, so arguing they're draining away from that system is a bit absurd. They're just not paying into the program.

State and Local services like schools yeah. But this assumes that every working Mexican has a child in a public school, which isn't true either.

Quote :

"why am i not the least bit surprised you harp on one little thing while not giving a shit that 12 million people dont pay taxes maybe if i had done some more serious crimes i would be ok with you"

So now you get to decide what crimes are serious and which ones aren't? I'm sorry, I'm not supposed to have sympathy for you, you're a habitual lawbreaker. This isn't one little thing, it is the basis of your entire argument.

6/6/2007 6:56:15 AM

Trooper OK After Being Rammed by Unlicensed Driver (May)

Quote :

"Omar Marino Zetino, 22, the driver of the smaller truck had alcohol in his system but not enough to be charged with drunken driving, Clendenin said."

Quote :

"The Highway Patrol is working with federal immigration officials to determine Zetino's immigration status, Clendenin said."

http://wral.com/traffic/story/1406233/

Illegal Immigrant Held in Fatal I-40 Wreck (June)

Quote :

"Michael Caldera De Latorre, 24, was eastbound on Interstate 40 at about 7:15 a.m. Monday when the Chevrolet Tahoe he was driving veered across the median onto westbound I-40 near the Wade Avenue split. State Highway Patrol troopers said the Tahoe hit a blue Kia Optima, driven by 54-year-old George Alwyin Smith. Smith died in the wreck."

Quote :

"Troopers are awaiting the results of a blood-alcohol analysis from the State Bureau of Investigation, said Lt. Everett Clendenin of the Highway Patrol. But troopers said they believe alcohol was a factor in the wreck because the driver smelled of alcohol. De Latorre, who works for a concrete company in Concord, had some form of identification with his picture on it, but he told troopers that the name on the ID wasn't his."

Quote :

"A passenger in the Tahoe, who identified himself as 18-year-old Roberto Castaneda, was injured in the wreck. Castaneda doesn't face criminal charges in connection with the wreck, but authorities picked him up from WakeMed Tuesday after determining that he had been deported previously as an illegal immigrant."

http://wral.com/news/local/story/1472083/

6/6/2007 8:31:32 AM

I was about 20 seconds behind that accident. It was very scary to see traffic come to a hault as it did, and pass that wreckage a short time later, even before crews had arrived. Im sorry for the unnecessary loss that is being felt by that family.


Its a shame that we have to limit the immigration quota for skilled workers because we have so many illegals sneaking in here. There are great people living in this country who came through the proper channels, and pay taxes, and contribute in their communities, who cannot get citizenship.

This bill does not give illegals citizenship, but elevates their status to that of those who came in and waited, and did so the legal way. That should not happen, and will only promote more illegals to come through.

We must secure the border first, and then get all the current illegals to step forward, asking that they all register, and fingerprint them, and then use that information to enforce the taxes and keep them from draining from our society. Automatically put them on the waiting list to get in, and give them a lottery to slowly let them in. However, they should not be on the road to citizenship until they can speak english and have waited their turn.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 8:39 AM. Reason : .]

6/6/2007 8:38:01 AM

beautiful.

6/6/2007 8:39:08 AM

Just got this email and I have to say....I love these ideas

George Carlin's Solution to Save Gasoline Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants! That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down. Bring our troops home from Iraq to guard the border. When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq. Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it. After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot. This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves. If they refuse to serve, ship them to

Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo. Problem solved. If you think this is a good solution to both the problems, forward it to your friends. I just did.

6/6/2007 8:52:35 AM

Quote :

"Which laws are they breaking? I'm curious. I know that it is illegal to enter the country without unlawfully, and I know that it is illegal to overstay a visa. These infractions occur when a person crosses a border or "forgets" to leave. But where is the law that says you must be documented while living here? And what is the penalty for breaking that law?"

Illegals massively defraud the state. Anecdote: Go to the DMV and observe the massive amount of Hispanics trying to get driver licenses. SS fraud is rampant among illegals.

Quote :

"I think they should all be granted amnesty because well, last time I checked, we are the ones here illegally."

wtf?

^ That is taken to an extreme, but military service is a good way to earn citizenship and many do just that. (those that can't/refuse to come into the country illegally). I've personally known several Filipinos who have done this.

6/6/2007 9:21:33 AM

^good post.

boone did you see the charts I was referring to?

Its not an easy problem to solve. When reagan did the first amnesty, our govt failed us by keeping the border open, now we have a bigger mess. I would rather see us enforce the laws we currently have, build a wall, then worry about the ones already here. I also think we should tax the hell out of these money transfers to mexico. At least we can get some money back. If you are getting paid under the table, you dont pay taxes, except sales. Its in the employer and employees best interest. So taxing the money transfers, which is mexicos second or third biggest income, would help us recoup some cost.

6/6/2007 9:55:39 AM

Quote :

"Illegals massively defraud the state. Anecdote: Go to the DMV and observe the massive amount of Hispanics trying to get driver licenses. SS fraud is rampant among illegals."

It's hard to point a finger at the people working the system when we do nothing ourselves to fix the issue. Illegal aliens in this country may get away with a lot, but where is the massive cry to tighten the leaks in the system they are exploiting? Why does the DMV not throughly check for SS or identity fraud? Why do thousands and thousands of employers get away with hiring people who are here illegally? Why aren't you targeting these problems with the same fervor that you're hurtling at the immigrants?

I understand and empathize with those of you who are adamantly opposed to these people being here, but the problem is so much more complicated than a fence, guards and deportation.

These are the people who now do the most remedial of jobs that no one else wants. Your garbage collectors, your farm hands, people working on road construction crews, construction in general, dish washers, line cooks, bus boys, lawn care and landscaping, etc. Start taking away that source of labor, and what happens to the economy? Who is going to do the work formerly done by these immigrants?

People screaming that immigrants should learn English before coming here blow my mind. How? How are these people going to learn English? There's no one around them speaking English in the country where they came from, and they're too busy picking the cotton for 10-12 hours a day to learn much here. Yes, there are social programs that are designed to help those who want to learn, and can afford the time. But like with the Italian and Chinese immigrants, the culture group is going to band together because they easily identify with themselves, and you won't see a major shift to the English language until the next generation or two.

There are plenty of Americans of Chinese decent who's parents or grandparents came to this country and probably built a railroad and got flogged a few times a week. They spoke little to no English upon arrival either. But their children learned, and there we hit on another big point to coming to America.

In their eyes, it's not necessarily about themselves, but about a better life and opportunity for their kids.

I work in a restaurant, and last night I was talking to one of our bussers who is from Mexico (no, I didn't ask if he was here legally.. but I think I'm going to tonight). He was telling me about the motivations of people in the Hispanic community and their reasons for coming to this country. His personal story involved leaving his entire family and his shack (yes, shack), and coming to America with his g/f (now wife) so that they could raise a child in a safe place, and ensure a good education. They're not citizens yet, but they are going through the naturalization process. He continued to explain that the living conditions are so bad in parts of Latin and South America, that people will gladly risk death and deportation to just get the opportunity for a job paying half of minimum wage under the table. For most of the immigrants, that's over double what they got back home.

It's easy for us to sit on this side of the border, and bitch and moan about people wanting to be here. Even more so when we actually believe the legal immigration methods we provide will allow these people to come here easily. It's hard for me to feel hatred or disdain towards anyone who is willing to die so their child can have a chance at a better future.

We have to:
1: Dramatically slow/lower the numbers crossing of the border.
2: Adamantly come down on business and government agencies catering to undocumented or falsely documented workers.
3: Get undocumented individuals of ANY ethnic background residing in our country into the system, and actively encourage/provide incentives for them to do so. We have to start getting taxes from them.
4: Try to fix the problem at the source by making their originating country a better place to live.

How we do all this... ugh.. that's a whole other headache.

6/6/2007 10:39:54 AM

To add a bit to that. I know a few Mexican families. Typically the 1st generation of people to arrive won't know English and there are several that don't make attempts. There are also several that have become very proficient in English. The age they were when they immigrated seems to be a big factor in that one. Their children end up being bilingual and in many cases their grandchildren probably won't even know a word of Spanish.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 10:51 AM. Reason : -]

6/6/2007 10:49:59 AM

Quote :

"garbage collectors,"

No, in fact, at least in Raleigh, the city doesn't employee illegals.

Quote :

"It's hard to point a finger at the people working the system when we do nothing ourselves to fix the issue. Illegal aliens in this country may get away with a lot, but where is the massive cry to tighten the leaks in the system they are exploiting? Why does the DMV not throughly check for SS or identity fraud? Why do thousands and thousands of employers get away with hiring people who are here illegally? Why aren't you targeting these problems with the same fervor that you're hurtling at the immigrants?"

Uhh.. that's the point. People ARE trying to fix the problem. The DMV has taken steps to try and stop people from getting DL that shouldn't. But it's the government, and they are slow at doing anything. There is a massive cry to plug the holes in the system. People bitch about it all the time.

You seem to be confusing two very different issues. Illegal immigration, and Immigration. Personally, I don't like it when someone doesn't obey the laws that I am sworn to protect. Call me crazy. I am all for open immigration, that is FAIR to everyone no matter where they are from. Right now, if you are Mexican you just hop the border and bam! there you go. If you are from Africa, you are SOL. That is fubar. Mexicans and other illegals should be required to go through the same steps as someone from Africa or Asia or where ever. I am all for supporting the flow of legal immigration and the expense of the illegal variety.

Oh, and the risk of deportation is minimal at best.

6/6/2007 11:00:55 AM

Quote :

"Mexicans in America drink and drive at a much higher rate than the rest of the population. Cultural factors are definitely at play in that regard. "

on 680AM yesterday morning they produced the results of a study of race, drunk driving accidents / regular traffic accidents.

Whites and Blacks came in around the middle of 2% while Hispanics came in at almost 7% of traffic accidents by race involving alcohol

6/6/2007 12:09:33 PM

^ Watch out, gunzz. The resident TSB moonbats will swoop in from above it all and accuse you of hating brown people.

6/6/2007 12:43:37 PM

Quote :

"I am all for open immigration, that is FAIR to everyone no matter where they are from. Right now, if you are Mexican you just hop the border and bam! there you go. If you are from Africa, you are SOL."

So you would much prefer it if Mexicans couldn't cross so that everybody would be SOL. This is your idea of fair?

Quote :

"Personally, I don't like it when someone doesn't obey the laws that I am sworn to protect."

A lot of cops in the 50s and 60s said the same thing with firehoses, attack dogs, and sticks.

6/6/2007 1:37:13 PM

Quote :

"So you would much prefer it if Mexicans couldn't cross so that everybody would be SOL. This is your idea of fair?"

Sorry, I thought I was clear. I am for making it EASIER to immigrate legally, while making it harder to do so illegally. And yea, that to me is fair.

Quote :

"A lot of cops in the 50s and 60s said the same thing with firehoses, attack dogs, and sticks"

Hello Mr. Strawman, glad to see you.

Immigration Laws != Jim Crow Laws

6/6/2007 1:48:56 PM

Quote :

" Immigration Laws != Jim Crow Laws"

Of course not, in terms of what they actually legislate. But I brought them up to demonstrate that a law is not made right simply by virtue of being a law. Nobody should ever argue, "I am opposed to X because X is illegal."

Referencing Jim Crow laws shows how unjust laws can be, and how disobeying can, in certain circumstances, be the only way to get them changed so that they are just.

6/6/2007 2:13:12 PM

Quote :

"This bill does not give illegals citizenship, but elevates their status to that of those who came in and waited, and did so the legal way. That should not happen, and will only promote more illegals to come through. We must secure the border first, and then get all the current illegals to step forward, asking that they all register, and fingerprint them, and then use that information to enforce the taxes and keep them from draining from our society. Automatically put them on the waiting list to get in, and give them a lottery to slowly let them in. However, they should not be on the road to citizenship until they can speak english and have waited their turn. "

Do you realize your second paragraph basically describes resident aliens, while your first paragraph is saying that the current illegals shouldn't be given resident alien status?

You seem to support the "amnesty" program without knowing it.

Quote :

"Illegals massively defraud the state. Anecdote: Go to the DMV and observe the massive amount of Hispanics trying to get driver licenses. SS fraud is rampant among illegals. "

If they were give some type of legal status, it would eliminate this problem, as well as help cut down on drunk driving.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 2:31 PM. Reason : ]

6/6/2007 2:26:09 PM

Quote :

"boone did you see the charts I was referring to?"

Yes-- it compares immigration over the past 30 years, iirc. Of course immigration's gone up over the past 30 years.

It's still lower and less of a "burden" than it was 100 years ago.


Again, before you all continue hating on these new set of immigrants, ya'll have to explain how they're any different from Germans, Italians, Chinese, etc...

BUT THEY'RE ILLEGAL is lame, as described above.

6/6/2007 3:28:12 PM

Quote :

"If they were give some type of legal status, it would eliminate this problem, "

Well.. yeah. Why should they, out everyone on the planet, be given this special privilege?

Quote :

"as well as help cut down on drunk driving."

What? I fail to see how that would effect drunk driving at all.

Quote :

"But I brought them up to demonstrate that a law is not made right simply by virtue of being a law. Nobody should ever argue, "I am opposed to X because X is illegal.""

Nor does it make it wrong. I never said that I am opposed to illegal immigration solely because it is against the law. Again, we have laws, they should be obeyed. If you don't like a law, organize and elect lawmakers to change it to your liking. Don't just ignore it. Civics 101.

Quote :

"Referencing Jim Crow laws shows how unjust laws can be, and how disobeying can, in certain circumstances, be the only way to get them changed so that they are just."

You are equating the oppression of a specific group of people who had suffered for over two centuries against there will, to a group of people who knowingly come into this country and break the laws of said country. That is silly at best. Our immigration laws are not, in any way, unjust. We have some of the most liberal immigration laws in the world (if not THE most liberal).

We, as a nation, have the right to say whom can and cannot come into our country.

Quote :

"Again, before you all continue hating on these new set of immigrants, ya'll have to explain how they're any different from Germans, Italians, Chinese, etc... BUT THEY'RE ILLEGAL is lame, as described above."

Why does anyone have to explain that? Instead, why don't you explain why THEY have the right to come here? This is a sovereign state, if the people of this state don't want more people coming in from Mexico or Timbuktu, it is there right to stop it.

[Edited on June 6, 2007 at 5:30 PM. Reason : .]

6/6/2007 5:23:23 PM

lets make legal immigration a lot easier

lets get tens of thousands of immigrants in a day

2009 American population 8 billion ftw

6/6/2007 5:27:09 PM

Quote :

"Again, we have laws, they should be obeyed."

But as you yourself go onto admit, this is not always the case.

Quote :

"If you don't like a law, organize and elect lawmakers to change it to your liking. Don't just ignore it."

And, again, this isn't always really a viable option, at least not be itself, and certainly isn't one for a population that largely cannot vote, which is something that the Jim Crow blacks certainly do have in common with immigrants.

That isn't even to say that the immigrants should be able to vote or have any desire to do so, but as someone who was at one point in their life younger than 18 you should realize that just because you're a nonvoter you should not be ignored by the political process.

Quote :

"You are equating the oppression..."

I'm not attempting to do any such thing. I certainly think that the Jim Crow laws were considerably more unjust than our immigration laws. However, looking at the one can tell us certain things which I think are very important to consider, namely that a law that we have in the past seen the merit of disobeying an unjust law that could not be changed through the usual political proceses.

Quote :

"Our immigration laws are not, in any way, unjust. We have some of the most liberal immigration laws in the world (if not THE most liberal)."

This, my friend, is what you have to argue from, and nothing else. Simply saying that our laws are liberal is not enough -- a law's being just or unjust is not determined by how many nations embrace it, nor is being less unjust than another country the same as being just.

I would argue that any law which prevents an otherwise law-abiding and peaceful citizen from crossing a border is inherently unjust, certainly unamerican, and frequently racist.

6/6/2007 5:35:12 PM

Quote :

"I would argue that any law which prevents an otherwise law-abiding and peaceful citizen from crossing a border is inherently unjust, certainly unamerican, and frequently racist."

crossing a border to visit or pass through? or crossing border to live and not pay taxes?

i don't think anybody is arguing to not allow people to visit our great country and vacation, or pass through if someone was travelling from canada to central america or something

6/6/2007 5:38:21 PM

chertoff on cnn now...i cant stand the repubs against this bill...its like do NOTHING or atleast do SOMETHING...i mean what to the people against it propose..that we deport 12 million people? oh yeah that will go over well...i'd rather have SOMETHIGN than nothing...

6/6/2007 5:43:02 PM

^why? is something bad better than nothing?

6/6/2007 5:47:39 PM

yes...its the lesser of 2 evils

would you rather nothing be done or something be done

6/6/2007 6:14:20 PM

Quote :

"or crossing border to live and not pay taxes?"

If they could cross the border to live and work then they would have the normal legal means to pay taxes, and if any of them failed to pay taxes then we could either deport them (if they weren't citizens yet) or punish them as we do any Americans that fail to pay their due taxes.

I meant "crossing a border" in every sense. They should be able to come over to stay, assuming that, after the appropriate amount of time, they:

1) Declare their intention to stay before crossing the border (so we can keep track of who's here)
2) Have a clean background check at the border (so we don't let in the terrorists we're always hearing about)
3) Do not commit a major crime before attaining citizenship, or while working here as a resident alien.

6/6/2007 6:42:06 PM

Quote :

"If you don't like a law, organize and elect lawmakers to change it to your liking."

We're arguing about a law put into place by elected lawmakers.

6/6/2007 8:13:51 PM

Quote :

""If they were give some type of legal status, it would eliminate this problem, " Well.. yeah. Why should they, out everyone on the planet, be given this special privilege? "

Because we share a ginormous border with them.

6/7/2007 1:48:37 AM

If the United States let one million Mexicans into the country every year and gave them legal citizenship would that be fine?

6/7/2007 1:55:48 AM

Do you mean legal residency?

I imagine we could handle that though.

6/7/2007 2:15:20 AM

yeah legal residency

i just think its not that people are against immigration in general, but that they're against too much immigration...i don't know how many immigrants from Mexico or elsewhere come here per year legally

6/7/2007 2:21:06 AM

Quote :

"Whatever the total is, the annual number of illegal immigrants has exceeded those coming legally for at least the past 10 years: 700,000 illegally compared with 610,000 legally, according to Pew. The number of "unauthorized migrants" (which includes some who have temporary permission to live in the US or those whose immigration status is unresolved), also has grown since legalization programs began in the mid-1980s, Pew reported last month: About 180,000 a year in the 1980s; 400,000 per year from 1990-1994; 575,000 per year from 1995-1999; and 850,000 per year from 2000-2005."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0516/p01s02-ussc.html That's what it says there.

I recall hearing that Duplin County NC has one of the densest population of illegal immigrants in the country. The big problem for them is that since the illegals aren't officially counted as part of the population, it causes issues with state and national money allocation, which results in schools being underfunded (and probably other things). At least, this is what someone from Duplin county told me. The vast majority of these immigrants work for farms there.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=1771523&page=1

Quote :

" Immigration has exploded in North Carolina. The Latino population has grown more than 1,000 percent over the last 30 years. ... "Let 'em come legal. Those that are here illegal, shoot 'em. … Get 'em on a bus, do whatever, get rid of 'em," said Emell Coggens, a local resident. ... But there is also acceptance in Duplin County. The immigrants are not going away, and, if they did, Jim Harris, the president of the chamber of commerce, said the local economy could crumble. "

In a situation like this, deporting such a large chunk of the county's population would be very bad for a lot of businesses that require their patronage, as well as employers that require their employment, but free up social services to provide better service to the remaining local population.

[Edited on June 7, 2007 at 3:07 AM. Reason : ]

6/7/2007 2:52:59 AM