http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100427/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_us_immigration

Quote :

"MEXICO CITY – The Mexican government warned its citizens Tuesday to use extreme caution if visiting Arizona because of a tough new law that requires all immigrants and visitors to carry U.S.-issued documents or risk arrest. And a government-affiliated agency that supports Mexicans living and working in the United States called for boycotts of Phoenix-based US Airways, the Arizona Diamondbacks and the Phoenix Suns until those organizations rebuke the law. "We are making a strong call to the Arizona government to retract this regressive and racist law that's impacting not only residents of Arizona, but people in all 50 states and in Mexico as well," said Raul Murillo, who works with the Institute for Mexicans Abroad, an autonomous agency of Mexico's Foreign Ministry."

Quote :

"Each day more than 65,000 Mexican residents are in Arizona to work, visit friends and relatives and shop, according to a University of Arizona study sponsored by the Arizona Office of Tourism. While there, the Mexican visitors spend more than $7.35 million daily in Arizona's stores, restaurants, hotels and other businesses, the researchers found."

Arizona's republican governor, in addition to her recent headlines, has also eliminated state domestic partner benefits which were by and large (70%) used by straight couples that didn't go down the marriage route.

4/27/2010 9:18:04 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/27/saenz.arizona.immigration/index.html?hpt=T1

interesting comparison to a similar law that California tried to enact in 1994

4/27/2010 9:59:26 PM

^yeah, i used to live in california when pete wilson tried to push prop 187. it pretty much defined him as a racist and ended his career


i'd be impressed if arizona law enforcers found a bunch of canadians who were here illegally. at least then it wouldn't appear so obviously bigoted.

[Edited on April 27, 2010 at 10:46 PM. Reason : canadians]

4/27/2010 10:28:01 PM

Quote :

"a government-affiliated agency that supports Mexicans living and working in the United States"

and people wonder why there are so many in Arizona willing to go to these extremes.

4/28/2010 12:22:01 AM

Quote :

"EarthDogg: This Arizona law smacks too much of a "Are your papers in order?" mentality."

Smacks of it?

That's precisely what it is.

4/28/2010 12:40:22 AM

Fun fact: my high school bff's Venezuelan mom would always ask "Do you have your papers?" before we went out anywhere. She just meant drivers' licenses, though, because North Carolina isn't a fucking police state requiring internal passports for brown people.

4/28/2010 12:28:58 PM

I support the legislation in Arizona. In fact, I think we should expand it. Every citizen should be required to carry proof of citizenship beyond a driver's license.

Soccer mom gets pulled over in her minivan on the way to the grocery? Sorry bitch, you should have had your birth certificate. Enjoy these handcuffs.

4/28/2010 12:41:49 PM

Quote :

"State lawmaker under fire for citing neo-Nazi article in e-mail A controversial Republican state lawmaker is under fire for sending out an e-mail containing an article from a white supremist group. State Rep. Russell Pearce, R-Mesa, recently sent out an e-mail that contained an article produced by the National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group known for its anti-Semitic views. In recent weeks, Pearce has also called for mass deportations of illegal immigrants, specifically referring to a 1950s era program called 'Operation Wetback.'"

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2006/10/09/daily22.html
Pearce was the author of the AZ immigration bill, btw. He's the guy on the right in the picture. The guy on the left is a Nazi. Seriously.

4/28/2010 1:40:27 PM

Quote :

"In April 2008, Pearce sponsored a measure, Senate Bill 1108, that would prohibit students of Arizona universities and community colleges from forming groups based in whole or part on the race of their membership. Pearce said he didn't want students indoctrinated with seditious or anti-American teachings. The bill would ban groups that serve minority interests such as the Mexican American study program and the Black Business Students Association."

4/28/2010 1:43:55 PM

i had no idea AZ could be so fucking awesome

sweet!

4/28/2010 1:55:08 PM

Quote :

"'Operation Wetback'"

4/28/2010 1:55:22 PM

Quote :

"Smacks of it? That's precisely what it is. "

Here is your FEDERAL law :Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him. Any alien who fails to comply with [these provisions] shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

4/28/2010 2:27:41 PM

^I don't see any language in there that requires police to approach any "suspicious" looking people and request their papers...and it certainly doesn't include language that encourages people to to sue their police departments if they don't believe law enforcement officers are checking people's papers diligently enough.

But congrats on an awful argument?

4/28/2010 2:35:14 PM

Every Alien, idiot.

Not every "legal citizen born in the US who happens to be a Latino."

4/28/2010 2:35:46 PM

So you are suggesting that police will just now walk up to every person who looks mexican and arrest them if they dont have papers? Thats is whats going on in your mind?

They are simply enforcing federal law.

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 2:47 PM. Reason : .]

4/28/2010 2:46:01 PM

Quote :

"the law would require immigrants to carry alien registration documents at all times and require police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally."

how exactly does a cop discern whether or not the person is in the country illegally just by looking at them? what's going to happen is if people aren't dressed a certain way, look a certain way and have a certain skin color, they're going to be asked for their papers.

that's profiling.

4/28/2010 3:14:53 PM

We're asked for our driver's license or identification almost every day. Want to get a job? Let's see your ID. Randomly stopped by the cops? Let's see your ID. And a lot of the times, that's not enough...you have to show other documentation too. "Let's see your papers" is not new in the United States. We lost the freedom to live in a way that we see fit a long time ago. This isn't a critical blow to freedom; freedom is already dead.

4/28/2010 3:33:09 PM

^^Absolutely!

^^^Yes, they will be legally required to approach anybody who looks "suspicious" and request to see their papers. That's what the law says they will have to do.

And I'm procrastinating on a paper so I did some quick reading on Arizona's demographics. They have a large population of native Latinos (people who have lived there longer most of the white folks). I suspect the hysteria that Arizona is enduring probably has a lot to do with their inability to distinguish between native Americans and undocumented immigrants/workers. Basically, "OMG, illegals are everywhere! And they're bringing drugs!" when, in reality, most of the brown people they see have lived there forever.

Seriously though, this is utter hysteria. They've only got less than half a million undocumented workers. North Carolina isn't far behind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Basically, they have a large brown population, not a large illegal alien population. But since they confound two, they think they're under siege or some shit. Plus, they're different than other states where Latino groups (regardless of legal status) have come together to lobby for their rights.

I think there are some serious issues associated with immigration that we need to address, and I've spoke fairly openly about them. But requiring the police to harass "suspicious" people is not the way to handle shit. For one, I like to get my tan on in the summer, and I ain't tryna get hassled when I'm getting drunk by the pool.

And, man, as if police didn't have a hard enough time getting people to trust them already...this legislation totally removes their discretion to ignore a person's status in pursuit of a more serious criminal. Shit, not to be crude, but it sounds like it's open season on undocumented women and children in Arizona--not like they're gonna go to the police...

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 4:00 PM. Reason : ]

4/28/2010 4:00:06 PM

Quote :

"Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him. Any alien who fails to comply with [these provisions] shall be guilty of a misdemeanor."

What about the people who aren't aliens? The Arizona law affects them, too.

Quote :

"So you are suggesting that police will just now walk up to every person who looks mexican and arrest them if they dont have papers?"

The law allows them to do just that, and that's a big part of the problem.

Even if they don't just approach everybody, it gives them one more excuse to detain people with no fucking reason. Think that this particular Beaner committed a crime, but don't really have any evidence? Well, you've got evidence that he's a Beaner, and thus resembles an illegal immigrant. Drag him in for that. Who needs due process?

Quote :

"Let's see your ID. And a lot of the times, that's not enough...you have to show other documentation too."

How often do you have to show other ID to a cop who stops you?

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 6:09 PM. Reason : Please don't tell me you're saying, "We're already bad so we might as well get worse"]

4/28/2010 6:06:56 PM

Quote :

"Think that this particular Beaner committed a crime, but don't really have any evidence? Well, you've got evidence that he's a Beaner, and thus resembles an illegal immigrant. Drag him in for that. Who needs due process? "

Not true. Ill post the bill

Quote :

"Let's see your ID. And a lot of the times, that's not enough"

Actually it lists the IDs that are valid.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

4/28/2010 6:15:44 PM

because police officers always follow the letter of the law, right?

4/28/2010 6:33:07 PM

what are you guys reading, the reasonable suspicion can only occur after lawful contact is already made and can be immediately discounted if you show federal, state, or local issued ID

directly from the bill

Quote :

"B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 21 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR A LAW 22 ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF 23 THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO 24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE 25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, 26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION. ANY 27 PERSON WHO IS ARRESTED SHALL HAVE THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS DETERMINED 28 BEFORE THE PERSON IS RELEASED. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE 29 VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 30 1373(c). A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, 31 CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY 32 CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF 33 THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR 34 ARIZONA CONSTITUTION. A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS 35 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW 36 ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING: 37 1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE. 38 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE. 39 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL 40 IDENTIFICATION. 41 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES 42 BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT 43 ISSUED IDENTIFICATION."

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 6:36 PM. Reason : ^ so you are saying police never profiled anyone before this bill]

4/28/2010 6:35:26 PM

^ they did, but they didn't have as much power to do anything about it.

Now, with this law, they could bring someone in and claim they didn't have an ID. The person would eventually get off, but not before the cop had made his point.

This is an outside case, but this is how civil rights start to erode. People are taking out their frustrations on another race that they blame for their own problems.

4/28/2010 6:39:09 PM

Quote :

"because police officers always follow the letter of the law, right?"

LAME

WEAK SAUCE

etc...

4/28/2010 6:39:17 PM

^^ really? so today a police officer could not just bring someone in and claim they [fill something in here that is illegal] when they didn't in reality?

besides, with the law you had to ALREADY have done something unlawful so they could have brought you for that

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 6:44 PM. Reason : ex]

4/28/2010 6:42:04 PM

^ you mean you've never heard of a cop not following proper procedures? Do you think most cops have a lawyer's knowledge of the law?

I know a friend to got a drunk driving charge dropped because the cop laughed in his face when he asked for a witness to the breathalyzer (or something along those lines).

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 6:45 PM. Reason : ]

4/28/2010 6:43:36 PM

The part where it says you can be arrested and have your car impounded if you transport an illegal, even if you don't know that he's here illegally because of "reckless disregard." That sounds like something that's real easy to prove.

Quote :

" WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO 24 IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE 25 MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, 26 EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION."

How exactly does one have "reasonable suspicion" that somebody is an illegal alien? By their not speaking English? Whether you like it or not, right now in this country you can be a citizen or legal resident while not speaking English.

4/28/2010 6:43:48 PM

My neighbors drink Molson and like hockey a little too much. Reasonable suspicion. I'm suing my municipality for not pursuing them aggressively enough.

4/28/2010 6:48:13 PM

^^ can you pull this part out of the bill? the way I read it was, for example if you are speeding and carrying someone illegal in your car, officer can stop you for speeding, ask for ID you give him ID and done, cannot check others in vehicle if they are not doing anything unlawful


again reasonable suspicion can only be used after lawful contact and can be discounted by federal/state/local ID provided; most states have laws that if you are already lawfully detained you can be arrested for failure to provide identification anyways

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 6:50 PM. Reason : ex]

4/28/2010 6:48:55 PM

Quote :

"A. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS IN VIOLATION OF A CRIMINAL 12 OFFENSE TO: 13 1. TRANSPORT OR MOVE OR ATTEMPT TO TRANSPORT OR MOVE AN ALIEN IN THIS 14 STATE, IN FURTHERANCE OF THE ILLEGAL PRESENCE OF THE ALIEN IN THE UNITED 15 STATES, IN A MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION IF THE PERSON KNOWS OR RECKLESSLY 16 DISREGARDS THE FACT THAT THE ALIEN HAS COME TO, HAS ENTERED OR REMAINS IN THE 17 UNITED STATES IN VIOLATION OF LAW."

Looks to me like, if you get pulled for speeding with a wetback in the car, you're guilty of that, too.

4/28/2010 6:52:33 PM

yes if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that the alien is unlawful

on top of that person doing something else unlawful that person being found to be an illegal alien

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 6:57 PM. Reason : ex]

4/28/2010 6:56:58 PM

Yeah, but what the fuck is "recklessly disregards?" If my neighbor asks me for a ride to work and all I know is that he's brown and speaks Spanish, do I have to ask him if he's a citizen? Ask for proof that he's here legally?

4/28/2010 6:58:46 PM

reckless disregard would be like if you picked someone up in mexico and brought them across without "caring" to know if they were illegal

like if you burned down a building that had people sleeping inside but you didn't know you may be charged with reckless disregard - meaning you knew that you might kill people but ignoring that consequence and doing it anyways (probably a bad example for proof unless someone overheard you or something~)

4/28/2010 7:01:34 PM

Sounds like bullshit to me. I drive my neighbor, I know I might be transporting an illegal alien. I've never seen his papers.

4/28/2010 7:07:47 PM

yes it isn't used very often and hard to prove/disprove you would essentially have to either do like i said and physically transport him across the border (whereas you know it is illegal to transport people who aren't documented but don't check their documentation) or you go around telling people you transport illegal aliens around and they tell on you



[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 7:12 PM. Reason : besides he would also have to initiate lawful contact for you to be charged as well]

4/28/2010 7:12:04 PM

Quote :

"A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON, EXCEPT IF THE DETERMINATION MAY HINDER OR OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION."

At least police have some discretion when it comes to their investigations, but this still won't be good for police/community relations. I'm interested in reading how the cops in Arizona feel about about this bill.

Quote :

"volex: most states have laws that if you are already lawfully detained you can be arrested for failure to provide identification anyways"

True. But they don't require that police officers magically determine if they suspect you are an illegal alien and follow up on their suspicions.

And, volex, unfortunately, "lawful contact" is practically all that police do and not very hard to establish. Busted for a noisy party? Lawful contact. Drinking at a public park? Lawful contact. Reported for a loud argument? Lawful contact. Loitering outside a gas station? Lawful contact. Resemble somebody who has recently committed a crime? Lawful contact. There are many instances where the police detain us and write down a few notes, but nothing comes of it either because no crime was committed or the police ignore the crime at their own discretion.

This law puts bad LEOs in a place where they can justify harassing the hell out of people. And it puts good cops in a position where they have to make impossible determinations. And, no matter what they do, they're alienated from a huge chunk of the community that they're trying to protect and serve.

Seriously, what do the LEOs on here think about this?

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 7:55 PM. Reason : ]

4/28/2010 7:55:03 PM

Quote :

"True. But they don't require that police officers magically determine if they suspect you are an illegal alien and follow up on their suspicions."

just curious, prior to this bill if you came into lawful contact with a police officer and did not present proof of identification what do you think was the deciding factor on whether or not the police officer arrested you or not?

4/28/2010 8:21:51 PM

^You're skipping the first step, which is whether or not they would even ask for proof of identification in the first place.

For example, when somebody calls and reports a parking lot gathering where a bunch of guys are allegedly blasting music from their car and drinking beer, the cops roll by if they have time, and nearly every step after that is up to their discretion based on what they observe--now they're supposed to be observing potential for illegal status somehow, which isn't possible.

And if this law is so beautifully written as to preclude racial profiling, then why do the police have to be specially trained in how to enforce it without racially profiling people?



But blah, this argument is pointless. The law is unconstitutional under some supremacy clause or something. Federal government handles immigration, not the states. I was hoping for a race war, but of course, this issue's gonna be solved with some anticlimactic legal mumbo jumbo...

[Edited on April 28, 2010 at 9:22 PM. Reason : ?]

4/28/2010 9:15:21 PM

if cops rolled up on an unlawful parking lot gathering and at their discretion they asked for IDs they still could without this bill

supremacy clause would be an interesting argument to make by the federal government; but I'd think AZ will argue that the federal government has defaulted on its immigration legislation

4/28/2010 9:25:52 PM

Quote :

" The law is unconstitutional under some supremacy clause or something. Federal government handles immigration, not the states."

Good lord people I posted the damn bill. READ THE BILL not the huff, its fucking 19 pages people.

A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR
17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY LIMIT OR RESTRICT THE
18 ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL EXTENT
19 PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.

It is the first point. LOL

4/28/2010 9:34:20 PM

Federal law doesn't say that the states can handle immigration cases unless they step on the federal government's toes, it says the states cannot handle immigration cases period. Immigration = foreign affairs = the domain of the federal government. LOL

4/28/2010 10:04:13 PM

^^ lol are you serious?

You're going to tell a bunch of kids who barely graduated high school to arrest illegal immigrants, but **wink wink ** don't look at skin color, what do you think is going to happen?

4/28/2010 10:15:03 PM

^

4/28/2010 10:26:52 PM

Quote :

"volex: if cops rolled up on an unlawful parking lot gathering and at their discretion they asked for IDs they still could without this bill"

Of course, and I never denied that! My point is that currently the police have some discretion. They can say, "Hey, guys, turn the music down," and drive off, ending the lawful contact without even making any inquiries. But this legislation takes away their discretion and makes them into psychics who are supposed to somehow determine if the parking lot revelers might be illegal immigrants without using race, ethnicity, accent, etc... The whole thing is a farce.

^^^^I'm not reading the Huff. I just read the wiki and here's a NY Times analysis discussing the supremacy business:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/us/28legal.html

I see that Arizona has taken all the steps to make this legislation appear concurrent with the policy of the federal government; however, I suspect the law will still be deemed unconstitutional because, despite having gotten the language just right, it's still not concurrent--it's too officious and shit.

Anyway, I'm sorry that I can't appreciate the delicate and artful wording of a bill that so obviously amounts to racial profiling.

4/28/2010 11:10:57 PM

We are at a crossroads in our nation. A major and potentially devastating assault is being made on white privilege on all fronts. Many are willing to do whatever it takes to defend it to the end. This recurring theme will continuously fuel the fire behind debates on healthcare, education, immigration, financial and energy reform.

The problem with this law is not what it says but what it allows. This law allows officers in Arizona to detain hispanics because they look illegal. Sure, they have to get stopped first but if they do get stopped and aren't carrying id, they will most likely be detained as an illegal. A white however would not. Thats where the law is racist.

We know the police aren't going to "suspect" anyone white of being illegal so the law will end up going after brown people only.

If two american families load up into a minivan one white one brown and they each get pulled over for speeding. The white family will certainly be given a speed ticket and move on.

The brown family, however at the officers judgment, could be all asked to show id. Whose kids carry id? The officer now believes this mexican american man is smuggling a 5 illegals into the country, packed in this van. After 4 hours of inconvenience the officer discovers that this is simply a mexican american family with their children.

4/29/2010 12:57:24 AM

You're the biggest racist on this board.

4/29/2010 12:59:46 AM

Quote :

"what are you guys reading, the reasonable suspicion can only occur after lawful contact is already made and can be immediately discounted if you show federal, state, or local issued ID "

Lawful contact? You mean a cop approaching someone who looks Mexican and asking him "do you speak English?" Whatever the answer, as long as there's a Mexican accent, the cop can say that's "reasonable suspicion" then ask for papers.

Hopefully, until the court decides the law is unconstitutional and the idiots who wrote/voted forsigned this bill get voted out of office, the cops won't enforce this bullshit law. They know it will result in countless lawsuits.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/28/pima-county-sheriff-calls_n_555895.html

Quote :

"On the other hand, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, who I am assuming is something of a master of the "complex and demanding craft of policing" seeing as how he's been a policeman for over five decades, begs to differ. Per Amanda Terkel, Dupnik called the law "racist" and "disgusting" and "stupid" and, in his "nuanced judgment" could not be enforced without mandatory racial profiling. Dupnik's reckoning of the legal issue is that he's just as likely to be sued for racial profiling as he is for not doing enough racial profiling, so he's standing pat, and will not enforce the new law."

4/29/2010 1:11:05 AM

^^how am I a racist?

for talking about white privilege? Do you know what that is?

4/29/2010 1:14:26 AM

^ No. Go into great detail about them for the rest of us.

4/29/2010 1:34:59 AM

Quote :

"In critical race theory, white privilege is a way of conceptualizing racial inequalities that focuses as much on the advantages that whites accrue as on the disadvantages that people of color experience. Unlike theories of overt racism or prejudice, which suggest that people actively seek to oppress or demean other racial groups, theories of white privilege assert that the experience of whites is viewed by whites as normal rather than advantaged. This normative assumption causes all discussion of racial inequality to focus on the disadvantages of other racial groups, and on what can be done to bring them up to white (i.e. 'normal') standards, effectively making racial inequality an issue that does not involve whites. Researchers suggest that more equitable attitudes can be achieved by refocusing such discussions to include whites as a group which holds social advantages rather than experiencing a 'normal' state of existence."

4/29/2010 1:35:44 AM