Yup. And his right to think that I'm an idiot, however incorrect it might be.

11/20/2008 12:12:16 PM

Quote :

"you compared the two, I said you couldn't. I then pointed out the differences"

Quote :

"Free Expression Tunnel - no real harm done Illegal Immigration - taking away jobs from legal citizens, bogging down the health care system, relatively high crime rates (gangs, alcohol-related crashes, etc), not paying the same taxes as legal citizens (no income tax), overcrowding schools, bogging down government agencies, sending billions of dollars away from the U.S., among other things. "

Comparing "Free Expression Tunnel" to "Illegal Immigration" is literally like comparing the 9/11 Attacks to economics, this is what you did.

I am talking about your views on enforcing rules in this situation to your view on enforcing rules in another situation.

IOW, Jiminez wasn't bogging down the health system, joining gangs, causing car crashes, not paying taxes, overcrowding the schools (which is taxes were paying for anyway), sending billions of dollars out of the US, or anything else you described there, so what's your problem with him? Why shouldn't he get leniency, but the "kill that nigger" guys should?

11/20/2008 12:13:33 PM

Quote :

"I am arguing, in this particular instance, that shooting niggers in the head is wrong and should not be tolerated in any instance. "

Again, who in this situation was shooting niggers in the head?

I definitely heard about some people talking spraypainting on a wall about shooting niggers in the head, but if they've started to take action, someone should really do something about that.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:15 PM. Reason : not even talking.]

11/20/2008 12:13:51 PM

Quote :

"But all you people who are defending this disgusting message of hate need to check yourselves because it's people like you who allow this type of atmosphere to exist. Sure they were expressing their ideas. But these are not ideas that are acceptable to be expressed."

Was this serious? You can't be serious.

11/20/2008 12:14:16 PM

I am way serious.

11/20/2008 12:17:05 PM

11/20/2008 12:18:06 PM

nice

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:18 PM. Reason : lolz, seriously]

11/20/2008 12:18:29 PM

This is awesome, people are still trying to defend the right to be able to spraypaint "Hang Obama" and "Shoot that Nigger in the Head" in huge letters in a tunnel the night after he is elected POTUS!!

If I were to guess which school in NC this would be going on... i'd bet my paycheck "NCSU."

You guys should be proud, you are your nigger-wall-painting buddies are making this school look so progressive and cuttin-edge.

I'm gonna send my kids there so they can go major in Jesus and threaten to murder black people without having to worry about any consequences. This school is about to be FULL of winners!!!

11/20/2008 12:19:00 PM

so how do you know if you need diversity training or not?

11/20/2008 12:20:21 PM

wow, terp... in a thread full of idiotic responses, you've somehow managed to come in late in the game and possibly trump all of them.

11/20/2008 12:20:56 PM

^^ if you feel the urge to gather some of your friends, purchase some spray paint, and under the cover of night paint "kill that nigger obama" on a wall.

seriously though, I tell some crude jokes in my persona life, but who would think this is funny? If they aren't really racist, they are REALLY stupid to think this would remotely be construed as amusing.

^ Terp's last sentence was very relevant though:

Quote :

"I'm gonna send my kids there so they can go major in Jesus and threaten to murder black people without having to worry about any consequences. This school is about to be FULL of winners!!!"

This is the message it would send if these guys escaped punishment.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:23 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:21:40 PM

Quote :

"See, now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not arguing against someone's right to say offensive things. I am arguing, in this particular instance, that shooting niggers in the head is wrong and should not be tolerated in any instance. Care to argue this point with me? Because that seems to be what you're doing."

Uh... here are your exact words, again:

Quote :

"Sure they were expressing their ideas. But these are not ideas that are acceptable to be expressed. Your support for their right to say these things is equally as disgusting."

It would appear, in fact, that you are arguing that people who have endorsed their right to free expression in this particular instance are, to use your words, "equally as disgusting" as those who expressed a bigoted notion. Furthermore, you appear to be saying that it is not "acceptable" for individuals to be expressing notions like those spraypainted in the tunnel to begin with.

So which is it? I don't think one person has argued that shooting black folks is okay - or that spraypainting a message advocating this is a worthwhile or good message.

But defending freedom of speech doesn't mean defending the content of the speech - which again, is at the core of this discussion. What these folks were saying was reprehensible - but it still shouldn't make it off-limits for expression, bad as it is. This does not mean anyone who defends their right to expression is somehow endorsing their message, which seems to be the problem you're having.

So, which is it? You've expressed two very contrary notions in two concurrent posts - which is the one you're actually advocating?

11/20/2008 12:22:49 PM

i read almost all of this thread...i give it a 9/10

kudos

11/20/2008 12:23:46 PM

I demand diversity training for every rapper spewing these hateful words in their lyrics...

Oh wait, that different...

11/20/2008 12:26:07 PM

^ are you saying college students should be held to the same standard as rappers?

And I don't recall any rappers saying "kill Bush" after he was elected.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:27:05 PM

Immortal Technique did recommended that Bush kill himself on his last album though ...

11/20/2008 12:28:58 PM

...or that rappers are somehow relevant to this thread in any way?

Also, you might want to clarify your wording, moron, because that statement could be taken multiple ways. On one hand, college students could need higher standards because they are at a learning institution, but on the other hand, rappers could need higher standards because their speech reaches more people.

11/20/2008 12:29:27 PM

^ uhh... I was saying it's asinine to compare people's expectations of some rappers to people's expectations with college students.

College students should hold themselves to high standards, and a rapper's goal is to make money.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:33 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:31:48 PM

Quote :

"But these are not ideas that are acceptable to be expressed. Your support for their right to say these things is equally as disgusting."

The first statement is my argument. The second statement is my opinion. You are attempting to argue that I am incorrect in my argument. I am not attempting to deny your retort, but I am attempting to deny the subject which you are defending.

My opinion is that anyone attempting to defend this speech is not using critical and rational thinking and are either a racist, or severely misguided on the intent of the 1st Amendment.

My argument is that, once again, there is absolutely no way speech like this should be tolerated under the guise of the 1st Amendment... especially not on a public educational facility which already has a reputation for lacking tolerance.

11/20/2008 12:32:46 PM

Quote :

"especially not on a public educational facility which already has a reputation for lacking tolerance."

Prior to this issue, i've never heard this about NCSU, to be honest.

11/20/2008 12:34:07 PM

Well if you remove that statement from my argument, I don't really think it takes a lot away...

11/20/2008 12:35:36 PM

I know i was just wondering if I was missing out on some juicy history at NCSU or something.

11/20/2008 12:37:28 PM

Nothing as big as this that I know of, but that noose thing and the whole uproar over giving the LGBT a couple offices on the third floor of the student center don't really help.

11/20/2008 12:40:08 PM

I wonder if these knuckleheads were TWW users

^ Don't you remember the news latching onto some "racially charged" comments regarding sports?
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1232267/


[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:40 PM. Reason : - that was pretty low]

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:41 PM. Reason : link]

11/20/2008 12:40:10 PM

Quote :

"My opinion is that anyone attempting to defend this speech is not using critical and rational thinking and are either a racist, or severely misguided on the intent of the 1st Amendment."

The idea of saying that any sort of legal filter through which ideas can be deemed "acceptable" or "unacceptable" to be expressed is what shows a lack of critical thinking here. You cannot simply ban what you (or even society in general) disagree(s) with... not because the racists are right in any way about what they say, but because such a ban would set a precedent for banning any conceivable speech provided that some group or person disagrees with it.

The ideas they are expressing are indeed ideas that are acceptable to be expressed. They aren't correct ideas, or good ideas at all. I say this because in my opinion there cannot under any circumstances whatsoever exist an idea that is unacceptable to be expressed. I call this freedom of speech. No matter how utterly detestable, insane, racist, or incorrect someone might be, they are fully within their rights to express their thoughts through words.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2008 12:43:23 PM

you obtuse motherfucker

I am NOT advocating for any restrictions on free speech amongst citizens

however, as a student of the university you VOLUNTARILY accept a code of conduct that in some ways limits your rights as a citizen - if you don't wish to be restricted in this way simply do not enroll in the university

what I'm saying is: IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN GIT OUT!

11/20/2008 12:45:16 PM

^Edited the arrows, was talking to Stoned, who IS advocating free speech restrictions on citizens.

Quote :

"as a student of the university you VOLUNTARILY accept a code of conduct that in some ways limits your rights as a citizen - if you don't wish to be restricted in this way simply do not enroll in the university"

I agree with this. Also, the university IS taking actions against them for breaking student conduct. Granted, "diversity training" is an incredibly stupid punishment, and very little good can come of it, but expulsion would have been too extreme. Just as expulsion is far too extreme in a lot of other student conduct cases (even though the university's policies might not agree with this last bit).

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:52 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2008 12:46:09 PM

but you do recognize my point about the student code of conduct being a voluntary and temporary restriction on rights

the military has a similar, albeit more stringent, code

you can't just go around making an ass of your parent-institution
unless of course the institution happens to agree with you

11/20/2008 12:48:19 PM

Snewf, you're so glad you're not affiliated with this university anymore. So am I.

I don't think being a student at a university should have anything to do with your rights as a citizen.

People go around and make an ass of the institution all of the time.

Legal trouble may be another story and not within your rights as a citizen. Legal trouble with the univserity is big bad of course.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:48:58 PM

Quote :

"but because such a ban would set a precedent for banning any conceivable speech provided that some group or person disagrees with it."

This is not really true.

The secret service doesn't visit just anybody. As has been noted hundreds of times, this isn't the first time "nigger" had been in the Free Expression TUnnel. That's not what this is about, if it was, we'd probably never hear about it.

This is about chaining that will KILLING THE PRESIDENT-ELECT. How many OTHER universities were similar hateful messages made at? NCSU is the only one i've heard of.

No one is talking about banning free speech, or creating a laundry list of words not acceptable to say. We're merely trying to defend the image of the university by condemning in a meaningful way the relatively unique and isolated incidents of some of our classmates. You can have free speech, but that doesn't also mean you're above the university's regulations.

11/20/2008 12:49:28 PM

I see what you're saying, but I disagree in that there are SOME things that should not be written. Saying something is different from writing it. I don't want a thought police walking around policing everything people say because that's obviously a stupid idea. But writing something, even in this instance, that is so morally and basically wrong is worse. If you take the time to write something like that it should be punished and it should be unacceptable. The only reason these kids are getting off lightly is because it was in a designated grafitti area. If they had done this anywhere else, they would definitely be getting expelled.

11/20/2008 12:51:04 PM

Quote :

"The first statement is my argument. The second statement is my opinion. You are attempting to argue that I am incorrect in my argument. I am not attempting to deny your retort, but I am attempting to deny the subject which you are defending."

...what?

No, I'm actually confused here. No one is defending the content of the speech. No one.

But what you appear to be doing is going well beyond that point and arguing that anyone who even defends the abstract principle of free expression, including this case, is as reprehensible as those who actually expressed the racist notions. Which is frankly both absurd and insulting.

Furthermore, I go back to my first question, and again ask - who gets to be arbiter of what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" free expression?

Quote :

"My opinion is that anyone attempting to defend this speech is not using critical and rational thinking and are either a racist, or severely misguided on the intent of the 1st Amendment."

Your first category is dangerously close to ad hominem, and your second category is simply incorrect. A litany of case law demonstrates this.

Meanwhile, now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand, you say this:

Quote :

"I'm not arguing against someone's right to say offensive things."

On the other hand, you are arguing against someone's right to say offensive things.

Which is it, Senator? I'm guessing the latter.

Quote :

"My argument is that, once again, there is absolutely no way speech like this should be tolerated under the guise of the 1st Amendment... especially not on a public educational facility which already has a reputation for lacking tolerance."

No one is saying that the content of this speech is hunky-dory. But that's not the issue, here. The issue is whether an ostensible place for "free expression" actually allows for "free expression." Which occasionally means people are going to express some dumb and at times reprehensible ideas.

If you're concerned about the effects of hateful messages, free speech allows for a solution - address these ideas publicly. Call on people to rebut these messages - don't just whitewash them away.

But frankly, you either accept and embrace free speech or you don't. There really isn't a middle ground, here.

11/20/2008 12:51:19 PM

Really in the grand scheme of things how much does this matter? If you're really bothered by comments painted in the free expression tunnel you're in for a shock because there are far worse things out there.

As far as racial charged comments here that WRAL reports, it's SOP for them to make news out of nothing. Amanda Lamb did an article this morning on me taking a piss, true story.

11/20/2008 12:51:34 PM

...and to add to what snewf just said, it is up to the university to enforce it's own code of conduct. in this case, it chose not to.

disrupting the peace and racial harassment is JUST as counteractive to an educational environment as cheating is.

No, the kids didn't do anything illegal, but that does not prevent the university from punishing them as they see fit.

11/20/2008 12:51:37 PM

Because that's the only thing ever put on the wall that could be considered disrupting the peace or racial harassment.

Welcome to higher education, where people should be able to handle a world of wrong ideas and bad people.

^ How? Create a rule after the fact and then punish them for breaking it?

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:57 PM. Reason : \/ God you are an idiot, that's because there's ALREADY A FUCKING RULE.]

11/20/2008 12:52:23 PM

Quote :

"Really in the grand scheme of things how much does this matter? If you're really bothered by comments painted in the free expression tunnel you're in for a shock because there are far worse things out there."

Whoa, what kind of people do you hang out with where you hear things like "kill that nigger obama" on a regular basis?

^ umm, the existing rules are sufficient to expel these students (at worst) for what they painted.

It's like how you can be 21, but if you live in a dry dorm, you can be punished for having alcohol. But OMG it's not illegal!@!111

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:52:54 PM

Quote :

"The issue is whether an ostensible place for "free expression" actually allows for "free expression." "

The FET, despite its name, actually isn't completely free expression. There's a notice posted outside of it about refraining from hate speech, if I recall correctly. However, I think that notice also is currently covered in spraypaint.

Quote :

"No one is talking about banning free speech, or creating a laundry list of words not acceptable to say."

Actually, IMStoned is doing just that.
"I disagree in that there are SOME things that should not be written."
In addition to all his other comments, not referencing the university but rather what should and should not be permitted by the first amendment.

I agree completely that by enrolling at a university you agree to accept their code of conduct. Which is why I agree with the university taking disciplinary action against them. Expulsion would have been too extreme for this case, I think, but if they had decided to expel them I really wouldn't have had a problem with it. I'm not arguing the university disallowing hate speech, just Stoned's apparent desire to regulate speech in general.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 1:04 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2008 12:56:12 PM

never said that pruf.

and thanks for welcoming me to the world of higher education! fyi, I'm a bit more exposed to it than yourself....bitch

I'm saying that I cannot support an institution that willfully allows this to continue without adequate punishment.

11/20/2008 12:58:28 PM

GTFO then, bitch.

I couldn't support a place of higher education that had any sort of censorship. If someone is wrong, show them where they're wrong. You'll acomplish more educating them rather than letting them continue on in ignorance.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 1:02 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 12:59:01 PM

Quote :

"But what you appear to be doing is going well beyond that point and arguing that anyone who even defends the abstract principle of free expression, including this case, is as reprehensible as those who actually expressed the racist notions. Which is frankly both absurd and insulting."

See, now you're just putting words in my mouth. Stop trying to make my argument for me. This entire time, I have ONLY been trying to persuade people that writing what was written in the tunnel was not acceptable. That's the only thing I've been trying to get across. I've never argued for anything other than that.

I may have strayed a little from my main idea to argue against some of the fringe stuff. But I've never tried to assert than any situation other than this particular instance is wrong. So please, please stop putting words in my mouth.

11/20/2008 12:59:50 PM

even if this incident doesn't result in actual fear amongst students of color it does communicate to them that the university doesn't care about such behavior and almost tolerates it

NCSU makes one bad decision after another

11/20/2008 1:00:24 PM

If it does result in fear by students of color, I feel bad for them for a lot of reasons.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 1:03 PM. Reason : \/ Do you read this shit before you hit post message?]

11/20/2008 1:01:39 PM

Quote :

"If someone is wrong, show them where they're wrong. You'll acomplish more educating them rather than letting them continue on in ignorance."

If someone doesn't automatically realize that painting "shoot that nigger obama" is wrong, they don't deserve to be in college.

Quote :

" I couldn't support a place of higher education that had any sort of censorship. "

And I can guaranty that 100% of the colleges in the WORLD practice censorship of some kind.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 1:03 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 1:02:08 PM

I'm actually really happy that the university painted the tunnel white after this incident.

It makes it easier to see that NCSU would much rather cover up racism and threats...pretending like they never happened; as opposed to actually working towards a real solution to the problems at hand.

11/20/2008 1:05:11 PM

They should definitely change their pamphlet to prospective students...

Racist? Closet Racist? Like threatening blacks and using racial slurs? Want to spraypaint "SHOOT THAT NIGGER IN THE HEAD" on a huge wall in the middle of capus and not have to worry about the consequences? no matter what type of ignorant racist you are...

We've got the perfect school for you





Where you can threaten to kill Barack Obama on a huge wall in the middle of campus using racial slurs and not get in trouble!

Quote :

"If it does result in fear by students of color, I feel bad for them for a lot of reasons."

I'm not there, I don't know how it would be to see that the day after Obama was elected president... but attending a student with a bunch of gun-toting rednecks and seeing shit like that may be a bit distracting. But I'm sure the black students would feel different as a whole about this than the white students. Your statement is ridiculous.

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 1:09 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 1:05:41 PM

Quote :

"See, now you're just putting words in my mouth. Stop trying to make my argument for me. This entire time, I have ONLY been trying to persuade people that writing what was written in the tunnel was not acceptable. That's the only thing I've been trying to get across. I've never argued for anything other than that."

Again, this is what you said:

Quote :

"But these are not ideas that are acceptable to be expressed. Your support for their right to say these things is equally as disgusting."

You may claim that you have misspoken, but the last thing I have done at all is to put words in your mouth. They've been there all along, plain as day for anyone to see.

Quote :

"I may have strayed a little from my main idea to argue against some of the fringe stuff. But I've never tried to assert than any situation other than this particular instance is wrong. So please, please stop putting words in my mouth."

Strayed a little? Dude, you said that anyone who defended these folks' right to free expression was as despicable as the perps themselves. You call that "a little?"

11/20/2008 1:05:47 PM

Quote :

"even if this incident doesn't result in actual fear amongst students of color it does communicate to them that the university doesn't care about such behavior and almost tolerates i"

Just because they weren't expelled, it doesn't mean that the university has chosen to ignore them. Disciplinary actions are being taken (even though those actions are rather misguided, such as enrolling them in diversity training).

11/20/2008 1:06:34 PM

but the university is protecting them by maintaining their anonymity

11/20/2008 1:07:58 PM

Quote :

"Disciplinary actions are being taken (even though those actions are rather misguided, such as enrolling them in diversity training)."

Do you know what other actions are being taken? I haven't seen any articles about this anywhere...

[Edited on November 20, 2008 at 1:08 PM. Reason : ]

11/20/2008 1:08:32 PM

jesus christ pruf.

are you really trying to say that NCSU didn't censor these kids by painting over their threats, etc...?


you've got to be kidding me.

11/20/2008 1:08:38 PM