Mexico's drug war heats up near Arizona border
'This began like a cancer in the finger and now it is spreading'
July 5, 2010

Quote :

"ALTAR, Mexico — Very few residents dare to drive on one of the roads out of this watering-hole for migrants, fearing they will be stopped at gunpoint. They worry they will be told to turn around after their gas tanks are drained or, worse, be kidnapped or killed. A shootout that left 21 people dead and six wounded on the road last week is the most gruesome sign that a relatively tranquil pocket of northern Mexico is quickly turning into a hotbed of drug-fueled violence on Arizona's doorstep. The violence in recent months is grist for supporters of the state's tough new law against illegal immigration, who are eager to portray the border as a lawless battlefield of smugglers both of drugs and humans. Nogales, the main city in the region, which shares a border with the Arizona city of the same name, has had 131 murders so far this year, nearly surpassing 135 for all of 2009, according to a tally by the newspaper Diario de Sonora. That includes two heads found Thursday stuffed side by side between the bars of a cemetery fence. The carnage still pales compared to other Mexican border cities, most notably Ciudad Juarez, which lies across from El Paso, Texas, which had 2,600 murders last year. But the increase shows that some small cattle-grazing towns near Nogales are now in the grip of drug traffickers who terrorize residents. The violence is concentrated in a few villages in the mountainous desert area of Rio Altar, which, until recently, drew tourists for its handsome churches, its river, a tilapia-filled lake and cooler temperatures. The roads wind through mountains of mesquite trees and saguaro cactus. That's where Thursday's pre-dawn shootout occurred, just 12 miles south of the border, on a deserted stretch between the villages of Tubutama and Saric. Eight vehicles and numerous weapons were found in what authorities described as a confrontation between rival gangs competing for drug and immigration routes into the U.S."

Quote :

"Tubutama, a village of about 1,500 people with no hotel, restaurant or gas station, canceled its annual town fair last month for the first time in memory. The move came after the town's comptroller and director of public works were murdered."

Quote :

"Journalists who cover the small villages stopped visiting several months ago, saying it is too dangerous. 'If no one puts a stop to this, these will become ghost towns,' said Jose Martin Mayoral, editor of Diario del Desierto, the newspaper in Caborca."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38093155/ns/world_news-americas

Can we get past the "If you want secure borders and support Arizona's right to security, then you're a racist who hates brown people" ridiculousness? When are we going to secure our borders--and our ports, for that matter?

The fact of the matter is that there is a deadly war raging at and around our southern border. We need to do everything we can to secure the border and to give Mexico the assistance it needs to deal with this ever-worsening crisis.

7/5/2010 9:53:31 AM

the anti-immigration law does nothing to help these problems, the migrant workers and laborers are not involved in any of these things

7/5/2010 12:09:24 PM

Quote :

"the anti-immigration law does nothing to help these problems, the migrant workers and laborers are not involved in any of these things"

bad guys cross the border too...not just the innocent.

7/5/2010 1:43:20 PM

and the bad guys are not illegal immigrants

because they're not immigrants

7/5/2010 1:46:55 PM

They're called just "illegals" now.

7/5/2010 2:37:43 PM

Quote :

"The fact of the matter is that there is a deadly war raging at and around our southern border. We need to do everything we can to secure the border and to give Mexico the assistance it needs to deal with this ever-worsening crisis."

as long as it is largely mexicans killing mexicans in mexico, nothing will be done, nor should it be done. we can't go in there and start enforcing their laws for them. the only options we have to solve this problem for mexico are: 1) legalize all drugs - won't happen 2) laser beams on the border - might happen

7/5/2010 2:47:28 PM

^ So, as long as people are killing their fellow countrymen it's okay? And it's totally cool that heads are being chopped off down there? Doesn't, say, the UN have a role?

In any event, some Democrats are breaking with the president on his inaction:

Arizona Dems contest Obama's assertions on border security
July 5, 2010

Quote :

"Anticipating a furor of voter criticism over the July Fourth recess, Democratic lawmakers from the border region shot back at the White House last week, challenging the president’s speech on immigration in which he said that the southern border is secure. Arizona Democratic Reps. Ann Kirkpatrick, Harry Mitchell and Gabrielle Giffords joined a growing Republican chorus in denouncing President Barack Obama for not pushing for more specific action in his Thursday speech on the nation’s immigration and border security issues."

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/107171-arizona-dems-challenge-obamas-address-on-border-security

7/5/2010 3:41:03 PM

Quote :

"the only options we have to solve this problem for mexico are: 1) legalize all drugs - won't happen 2) laser beams on the border - might happen"

Pretty much.

7/5/2010 3:54:34 PM

Quote :

"the only options we have to solve this problem for mexico are: 1) legalize all drugs - won't happen 2) laser beams on the border - might happen""

What about genocide? That's clearly an option.

7/5/2010 4:05:31 PM

Quote :

"and the bad guys are not illegal immigrants because they're not immigrants "

do you want to argue semantics or do you have a point?

7/5/2010 4:21:33 PM

Quote :

"So, as long as people are killing their fellow countrymen it's okay? And it's totally cool that heads are being chopped off down there? Doesn't, say, the UN have a role?"

No, it's not OK. But, shit like this happens all over the world. A lady is about to be buried up to her neck and bludgeoned to death with big fucking rocks in Iran. People getting their heads lopped off is reprehensible, but the insinuation is that since this is happening in a neighboring country, it is the responsibility of the US to fix the problem. No way. There are plenty of failed states. If the UN wants to deem Mexico as such and saddle up, I'm not going to stop them.

7/5/2010 4:21:35 PM

it is different when it spills over into our borders, and when so many of our fellow countrymen share the nationality.

certainly you can see the difference in Mexico and Iran, and the potential direct impact on our country turning a blind eye to the border holds for us.

7/5/2010 4:28:52 PM

^^^
I'm not sure, but I think he means that the bad guys are "not immigrants" as in, they don't stay forever... staying only long enough to commit crimes.

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2010 4:29:44 PM

Victims of Massacre in Mexico Said to Be Migrants
August 25, 2010

Quote :

"MEXICO CITY — The bodies of 72 people discovered Tuesday on a ranch in northeast Mexico were migrants killed by gunmen who tried to extort money from them as the migrants made their way toward the United States border, a witness told Mexican authorities Wednesday. Initial reports late Tuesday suggested the mass collection of bodies about 100 miles south of the Texas border was another, though the largest, in a series of dumping grounds, often with dozens of dead, discovered in recent months and attributed to casualties of the drug business."

Quote :

"The discovery of the bodies was the largest of at least three such finds this year. In May, 55 bodies were pulled from an abandoned mine south of Mexico City and in July 51 bodies were discovered in a field near Monterrey, a vital industrial and business hub also in northeast Mexico that had been relatively quiet until this summer. A shootout last week in Monterrey outside the American School Foundation, a private school popular with American expatriates and Mexican business executives, prompted the American consulate to advise families to keep their children home pending an assessment of security at the school. More than 28,000 people have been killed in drug-related violence since President Felipe Calderón began a crackdown against organized crime in 2006."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/26/world/americas/26mexico.html

I realize that it doesn't fit the narrative of some here and elsewhere, but soon even you are going to have to come to grips with the fact that there are major problems at and around the U.S.-Mexico border. Don't tell me things aren't that bad down there.

[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 5:47 PM. Reason : More must be done--and soon.]

8/25/2010 5:45:21 PM

I agree, something must be done to stop the violence. We must legalize both the sale of drugs and the immigration of foreigners.

8/26/2010 9:55:37 AM

Quote :

"We must legalize both the sale of drugs and the immigration of foreigners."

I'm pretty sure we already have legal immigration...?

8/26/2010 10:38:24 AM

ICE skirts Congress by changing policy and halting deportations
August 27, 2010

Quote :

"ICE skirts immigration law and begins to release illegal immigrants who have already been arrested and are waiting to be deported. A memo from released yesterday by John Morton of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), included a new policy change that could affect thousands awaiting deportation. Morton signed a memo that went out to agencies across the country stating any illegal immigrants who have been charged with deportation have their cases reviewed and be released or absolved of any legal issues with the federal government if they have not committed any serious crime."

http://tinyurl.com/23pmvsn

And here's your back-door amnesty, folks!

[Edited on August 27, 2010 at 11:58 PM. Reason : GG! ]

8/27/2010 11:58:17 PM

What narrative? Since 2006, 28000 have died, and yet there hasn't been any real spillover in violence. I'd say either the violence manages to stay away because the drug lords know not to fuck with us, or were actively keeping the violence away and we just don't hear about it.

8/28/2010 12:12:02 AM

^ Please just STFU--seriously. Nobody cares what you think.

Mexican Drug Cartel Violence Spills Over, Alarming U.S.
March 22, 2009

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/us/23border.html

Gunbattle near Mexican border spurs US warning
State Dept. workers were told to keep children home
August 25, 2010

http://www.policeone.com/border-patrol/articles/2553995-Gunbattle-near-Mexican-border-spurs-US-warning/

8/28/2010 12:26:08 AM

I care what anyone but you says

seriously I read his original thoughts

and completely tldr'ed your linked and bolded articles

8/28/2010 12:59:20 AM

Quote :

"seriously I read his original thoughts opinions"

Fixed. Yes, you prefer those who simply pop off--you know, like you do--without the facts. The NYT and other article clearly disputed the rantings in question.

8/28/2010 2:23:19 AM

This just in:
Opinions are not thoughts.

8/28/2010 2:25:03 AM

^ The point was that there are thoughts based on facts and thoughts based on nothing more than opinion. But this, of course, is self-evident.

8/28/2010 2:31:10 AM

Yes, and his self-evident point is that it's more interesting to read a person's original content, factual or not, than it is to read non-thoughts regurgitated from media articles.


Also, I'd hesitate to call anything written by the modern news media a valid factual citation... popular news journalism is far too entertainment-oriented to be remotely reliable or really worth reading at all. Exceptions to Associated Press and certain similar sites who exist primarily to report rather than publish entertainment. That's just my opinion, though.

[Edited on August 28, 2010 at 2:37 AM. Reason : .]

8/28/2010 2:36:50 AM

^ Thanks for your input. But unless you're prepared to dispute the facts in the articles, your opinion is pretty much meaningless.

8/28/2010 2:48:07 AM

So in a thread titled "Sudden Collapse of Mexico Scenario" that is over 18 months old you're making the argument of problems for the US and you're going to post an article nearly 1.5 years old as support for your

Quote :

"More must be done--and soon."

claim?

Your other link...is about violence in Mexico.

Quote :

"But unless you're prepared to dispute the facts in the articles"

Well friend, I already disputed them and you made a feeble attempt to re-assert your point. I've made the case that it seems like the issue has been and continues to be relatively contained to Mexico.


You simply aren't doing the discussion any favors by posting what you think are self evident links supporting your point (especially when it is painfully obvious they don't or at the most only partially so) without any of your own comments (well, except the ones where you spew hate and vitriol on this section).

8/28/2010 7:36:24 AM

Also, more solid facts supporting your assertion...from your own link

Quote :

"Although overall violent crime has dropped in several cities on or near the border — Tucson is an exception, "

Quote :

"Tying the street-level violence in the United States to the cartels is difficult, law enforcement experts say, because the cartels typically distribute their illicit goods through a murky network of regional and local cells made up of Mexican immigrants and United States citizens who send cash and guns to Mexico through an elaborate chain."

And I wouldn't want to live in one of these border towns with such high levels of crime, but it seems like it is being contained to the drug trade.

Shit...I just read a comment that vindicates your point

Quote :

"Elizabeth W. Kempshall, who is in charge of the drug agency’s office in Phoenix, said the kind of open warfare in some Mexican border towns — where some Mexican soldiers patrol in masks so they will not be recognized later — has not spilled over into the United States in part because the cartels do not want to risk a response from law enforcement here that would disrupt their business."

I bet Elizabeth W. Kempshall is a damn dirty liberal with an agenda to cover up the problems so BHO doesn't look bad, right?

8/28/2010 7:49:28 AM

Quote :

"Since 2006, 28000 have died, and yet there hasn't been any real spillover in violence."

Potty Mouth

Even the left-wing Times disagrees:

Quote :

"Mexican Drug Cartel Violence Spills Over, Alarming U.S. March 22, 2009 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/us/23border.html"

Were they lying in the headline?

Quote :

"I'd say either the violence manages to stay away because the drug lords know not to fuck with us, or were actively keeping the violence away and we just don't hear about it."

Potty Mouth

Quote :

"Mexican Drug Cartel Violence Spills Over, Alarming U.S. March 22, 2009 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/us/23border.html"

(1) The "drug lords" are often the cause of the violence at and around the border, directly or indirectly; (2) the violence is clearly not being kept "away" (how far is "away"?); and (3) we obviously "hear about it"--it's in an international paper of record (that, yes, I have some concerns about related to bias; but they don't make up attacks such as this).

Quote :

"'Sudden Collapse of Mexico Scenario'"

Do you know what a "scenario" is?

Quote :

"'Tucson is an exception. . . .'"

When last I checked, Tucson is in the United States. QED.

I don't know why I even bother, but my post stands on its own merits.

8/28/2010 4:34:40 PM

You're arguments are weak sauce. I don't really consider bigger quote blocks, more bold, and the exact same link you've just posted as a valid rebuttal to a contradictory point to said link. You have this deluded sense that you proved your point when really it's just the alternate reality you are living in where you ignore everything you read and continue to pretend said point is somehow self evident if only everyone were as enlightened as you.

We're clearly (well, not clear enough for you apparently) arguing to what degree is the Mexico problem for average citizens. You've yet to make any case for yourself to what degree the problem is, instead choosing to appeal to the NYT as some sort of authority, which itself is laughable as hell considering the Liberal Media thread you're so deep in, but I digress. You've then tried to set up a strawman

Quote :

"Were they lying in the headline?"

because really, what non mouth breather is going to focus on the headline. I already responded with quotes from your own god damn source that makes the case that as of right now (well, hell, as of March 22nd 2009) the "spillover" in the worst case has been contained to those that are part of the drug trade itself with violence GOING DOWN in other border cities.

Quote :

"Do you know what a "scenario" is? "

What does that have to do with

Quote :

""More must be done--and soon.""

?

Quote :

"When last I checked, Tucson is in the United States. QED. "

Again, thanks for proving that your mind is so closed to new information that you simply don't comprehend what you read.

Quote :

"I don't know why I even bother, but my post stands on its own merits."

I mean, I guess if I just lost an argument as hard as you did, I'd make this baseless claim too.

8/28/2010 7:30:20 PM

Mexican Gangs on the Rise
August 28, 2010

Quote :

"Experts say the level of brutality is on the rise."

Quote :

"The bloodiest battles are centered around key access points to the U.S., along border areas and port cities."

Quote :

"They're businessmen. They're fighting over control of routes, but also access points into the world's largest market for illegal drugs [the United States]."

Quote :

"A cycle of violence and destruction that experts say is only getting worse."

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6815101n

8/29/2010 3:42:23 AM

Mayor killed in Mexican border state
August 30, 2010

Quote :

"(CNN) -- The mayor of a city in the Mexican border state of Tamaulipas was killed and his 10-year-old daughter was injured Sunday, officials said."

Quote :

"'It was not just attack against a person. It was an attack against institutions,' Tamaulipas Governor Eugenio Hernandez Flores said in a statement Sunday night. He said police were still investigating the attack, and called on federal authorities to send reinforcements to the state in response to a notable increase in crime. Mexican President Felipe Calderon's office released a statement condemning the attack. 'This cowardly crime and reprehensible violent acts which occurred recently in this state reinforce our commitment to use all the resources of the Mexican state to continue fighting criminal gangs seeking to intimidate the families Tamaulipas,' the statement said."

Quote :

"The state of Tamaulipas, which borders Texas, has seen a spike in violence amid Mexico's drug war. On Tuesday, investigators found the bodies of 72 slain migrants there."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/30/mexico.mayor.killed/?hpt=T2#fbid=aaOdAIb6QFW

8/30/2010 4:47:27 AM

Do you ever get upset that you that TWW only provides you with three or four ways to emphasize text?

8/30/2010 9:32:17 AM

Assuming the situation continues to deteriorate it will be interesting to see what happens as immigration shifts from people seeking work to people who are undeniably refugees. I fear that our response will lack the humanitarian bent that many poorer, less-established democracies and even non-democracies have shown to people in similar circumstances.

8/30/2010 9:46:50 AM

Christ, we treat muslims that are actually American citizens like shit, you expect these racist faggots to show genuine human compassion to Mexicans?! America is fucked. We're done. It's over. Our people are worthless. We deserve every bit of violence, plague and destruction that's coming our way. The best thing that could possibly happen to America is a mass extinction: cull the current and past generations in hopes the remaining few or a new wave of immigrants will do a better job with what's left.

8/30/2010 11:50:28 AM

if you can't handle shit in your own country, don't think for a moment that we want you coming into our country and fucking that up too.

8/30/2010 12:19:23 PM

^exactly

^^&^^^why don't you guys meet up somewhere and cry on each others' shoulders. I'm sure you'll feel better afterwards.

8/30/2010 12:55:09 PM

Quote :

"Christ, we treat muslims that are actually American citizens like shit, you expect these racist faggots to show genuine human compassion to Mexicans?! America is fucked. We're done. It's over. Our people are worthless. We deserve every bit of violence, plague and destruction that's coming our way. The best thing that could possibly happen to America is a mass extinction: cull the current and past generations in hopes the remaining few or a new wave of immigrants will do a better job with what's left."

This is the densest conglomeration of fail I've ever seen in a block of text. Congratulations.

8/30/2010 1:54:45 PM

I get so sick and tired of fools bad-mouthing the United States. I honestly do.

Humanitarian Assistance

Quote :

"The United States gives more to those in crisis than any other country in the world."

http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/

[Edited on August 30, 2010 at 4:17 PM. Reason : And do you ever get upset that I'm almost always right, spöokyjon? ]

8/30/2010 4:17:21 PM

Quote :

"So, as long as people are killing their fellow countrymen it's okay? And it's totally cool that heads are being chopped off down there? Doesn't, say, the UN have a role?"

Hey now, are you saying you favor an increased role for the UN in situations in which the stability of governments are threatened?

Cause honestly, aside from me and Grumpy, I can't remember a single other person here who has ever had a good thing to say about the UN.

8/30/2010 4:20:32 PM

^ The United Nations has a mandate--and rarely is it fulfilled. The United States, which as I indicated is bad-mouthed more often than not, usually carries the load for the member nations.

8/30/2010 4:24:36 PM

It's true that we provide a plurality of funding for the UN. The contributions of the US, Japan, and most European nations is roughly proportional to the GDP of those nations. Likewise, China's contribution is far, far less than directly proportional to its GDP.

Of course, the UN is a team operation, and whether we give more or less, we're no more entitled to force the other member nations on the Security Council to follow our agenda than any other nation.

As far as troop contributions, I can't find a comprehensive listing, but looking at the 11-year mission in the DR-Congo, and remembering what I've read previously, India and Pakistan tend to send a plurality of troops. A large majority come from developing nations.

So as far as carrying the load, it depends on what load you're talking about. We had plenty of goodwill when the UN started and was pumped up by American liberals like Eleanor Roosevelt,to the hatred of right-wingers like Bob Taft, who I'd say is more representative of the American Right now. What happened?

8/30/2010 6:01:39 PM

Quote :

"if you can't handle shit in your own country, don't think for a moment that we want you coming into our country and fucking that up too."

Does not understand how "refugee" works. Frankly, does not understand how any part of this situation works. However he continues to impress with his ability to simultaneously place all of the blame for Mexico's woes on each and every one of its citizens.

Quote :

"The United States gives more to those in crisis than any other country in the world."

Absolutely we do. I worry that we will let Mexico be a special case. Obviously plenty of Americans already have issue with the number of Mexicans pouring over the border -- is that going to change because those Mexicans go from being sneaky, covert, desperate men with nothing to being large crowds of desperate families carrying everything they can?

Also, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to suggest that we might react differently to a situation where the refugee crisis is localized thousands of miles away, to one where the crisis is localized in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California.

8/30/2010 6:55:45 PM

^^ Sweet Jesus. I not going to participate in this thread being misdirected into a debate about the damned United Nations. My mention of the organization was obviously an aside.

Now, what would you do about the increasing levels of violence at and around the U.S.-Mexico border (and even the U.S. interior, in some cases)?

^

Quote :

"Also, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to suggest that we might react differently to a situation where the refugee crisis is localized thousands of miles away, to one where the crisis is localized in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California."

Not unreasonable--but also a bit of misdirection and/or perhaps an either-or fallacy. Yes, the United States will undoubtedly "react differently" (somewhat) to incidents close to the homeland, but we also continually respond to refugee crises around the world--we have a well-documented history of this.

8/30/2010 7:38:11 PM

Quote :

"Now, what would you do about the increasing levels of violence at and around the U.S.-Mexico border (and even the U.S. interior, in some cases"

Um, increased Border Patrol and stationing Nat. Guard troops on the border? Continuing to work with the Calderon govt. on this? I don't think that the UN is even going to be considered at any point here.

This is the part where you talk about how this somehow has something to do with liberals being bad or something.

8/30/2010 8:30:46 PM

Quote :

"Does not understand how "refugee" works. Frankly, does not understand how any part of this situation works. However he continues to impress with his ability to simultaneously place all of the blame for Mexico's woes on each and every one of its citizens. "

Leave it some leftist douchebag to think he understands what everyone else is incapable of understanding. Cry all you want; our country has always been smart enough to side with my take on the situation instead of trying to welcome the failures of other countries as you would suggest.

8/30/2010 11:14:00 PM

Ahahaha since when is Grumpy a leftist?

8/31/2010 12:24:41 PM

don't let the GOP in his username fool you.

8/31/2010 1:28:46 PM

Should I let the entire body of conversations I've had with him fool me, then?

8/31/2010 1:35:40 PM

by your standards, everyone is a right wing nutjob with the exception of progessive moderate Gronke. How conservative can you expect a person to be when he refers to himself as "TWW's Che"?

8/31/2010 2:54:50 PM

Quote :

"by your standards, everyone is a right wing nutjob with the exception of progessive moderate Gronke."

Not really, I got respect for plenty of right-leaning members of this board (not nutjobs)

Still there are a few democrats and liberals here and even a communist. Do you really think I'd label Kris a right-wing nutjob? Gronke barely counts as left-wing as he doesn't understand any of his own positions; he's more anti-establishment/mentally-adolescent.

Quote :

"How conservative can you expect a person to be when he refers to himself as "TWW's Che"?"

I can't imagine he takes that seriously

[Edited on August 31, 2010 at 3:02 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2010 3:01:41 PM