I am not as up to date as you guys on the health care debate. I don't have insurance because I just started my new job, and I've never had anything majorly wrong with me...

but I do think we need to have insurance for everyone. I don't think companies should be allowed to deny payment because of a pre-exisiting condition. Overall, costs probably need to come down for some of this stuff.

How do countries like France and Canada afford it so easily?

9/8/2009 2:43:51 PM

TAXES

EVIL

EVIL

TAXES

9/8/2009 2:48:32 PM

"How do countries like France and Canada afford it so easily?"

Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

9/8/2009 4:45:37 PM

Quote :

"Are you seriously implying that there are enough charitable donations in our country to provide for enough food and healthcare for all of our poor people?"

You ought to look at the interesting negative correlation between charitable contributions and gov't programs. It might enlighten you just a little bit.

Quote :

"but I do think we need to have insurance for everyone."

Strike 1. One shouldn't need insurance to be able to afford basic medical care.

Quote :

"I don't think companies should be allowed to deny payment because of a pre-exisiting condition."

You are probably correct. There should be a time-frame for insurance companies to research a person's medical background and decide if they hid anything on the application. After that, all bets should be off. But, if you are talking about companies denying coverage to people w/ pre-existing conditions (Strike 2), then I'd ask you if State Farm should have to accept your application for homeowner's insurance at the moment your house is on fire...

Quote :

"How do countries like France and Canada afford it so easily?"

Strike 3. Simple. They don't.

9/8/2009 5:46:13 PM

Last I heard, France and Canada and virtually every other developed nation in the world was paying less per capita on healthcare than we are.

9/8/2009 6:17:59 PM

last I heard, they all come here when they need specialized care.
last I heard, they all have crazy wait times.
last I heard, they all have far worse outcomes in cancer survival rates.

9/8/2009 6:21:08 PM

last i heard, they were democratic nations who could have easily supported scrapping those systems long ago, but instead continue to choose them, but i'm sure that's either because 1) political trickery! those tricky pols (who are also complete idiots, according to the anti-gov types) or 2) they are idiots.

now someone post some south park pics!

9/9/2009 9:24:53 AM

Quote :

"last I heard, they all come here when they need specialized care. last I heard, they all have crazy wait times. last I heard, they all have far worse outcomes in cancer survival rates"

aaronburro, can you do me a huge favor?

I want you to visit the following website:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Examine this website and specifically make note of the location of the United States compared to other countries.

Using that information, I want you to post a 500-word essay, double-spaced, Times New Roman, explaining how the United States is in that position if it provides, as you say, the best health care in the world.

9/9/2009 9:31:54 AM

well, i got that essay ready for you right here:

American Exceptionalism

which also happens to be what's killing us overseas as well as at home!

9/9/2009 9:37:56 AM

There is a big difference between medical care and health care GOD.

Health care includes what you put in your mouth and excercise. But I dont think you want to really understand the difference.

9/9/2009 9:55:48 AM

let's have an argument about semantics and avoid the topic. this is the internet after all.

9/9/2009 9:57:01 AM

Quote :

"There is a big difference between medical care and health care GOD. Health care includes what you put in your mouth and excercise."

Exactly. Which means that it doesn't matter if we have the supposed best "specialized care" or "cancer survival rates." The best life expectancy comes from good general practitioners and preventative care, an area in which the United States fails, especially when a fifth of the people don't have coverage.

9/9/2009 10:17:20 AM

Quote :

"preventative care"

Does State Farm, Nationwide, Allstate, or Geico pay for your oil changes? Why should health care be any different. If you neglected to get your oil changed, would they deny the claim you make when the engine goes kaput? My magic 8-ball is saying yes.

Health insurance is just that...insurance, a way to protect your assets.

The problem here is not the insurance providers. The problem is the American way of life, cost of treatment, and apathy.

9/9/2009 11:48:06 AM

Do you think its just, in the here and now, to deny coverage to people who might have eaten badly or been wreckless in their more immature days?

I wonder how many people on here even know what its like to have to worry about being denied coverage b/c of their pre-existing conditions. It's easy to beat your chest and say "PAY FOR YOUR MISTAKES, PEON, LEARN YOUR LESSON AND SUFFER" when you don't have to face up to that fact (well, and you are a college libertarian).

At the least, I think that people should be able to purchase coverage regardless of condition.

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 12:20 PM. Reason : .]

9/9/2009 12:17:29 PM

Quote :

"At the least, I think that people should be able to purchase coverage regardless of condition."

I agree with this. Even if they have to pay a higher premium than a healthy individual, they should still be able to buy coverage.

9/9/2009 1:29:41 PM

http://usdebtclock.org/

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 1:41 PM. Reason : q]

9/9/2009 1:41:18 PM

Quote :

" Strike 1. One shouldn't need insurance to be able to afford basic medical care. "

Agreed. With the current system your uninsured individual is placed in double jeopardy. Not only do they incur higher costs by having
to pay out of pocket but the worse part is individuals pay substantially more than what the insurance company would pay to begin with!

I recently had an endoscopy which the gastroenterologist charged $1500!! My insurance company though got a discount to only pay $675 of
which $67.50 was my co-pay. I think besides reducing the AMA's lease on limiting physician intern slots the main thing needed is
INSURANCE reform not healthcare reform.

Quote :

"Does State Farm, Nationwide, Allstate, or Geico pay for your oil changes? Why should health care be any different. If you neglected to get your oil changed, would they deny the claim you make when the engine goes kaput "

you are comparing apples and oranges nimrod. If you don't change your oil and your car breaks down your insurance shrugs its shoulders.
If you are a lard ass and thus take on medical conditions related to your obesity; your healthcare provider ends up taking the hit (beyond your co-pay). Thus for many situations it is cost beneficial for insurance companies to pro-actively pay for "preventative" care as an investment in keeping you healthy (hence justification for some cosmetic elective procedures like the stomach clamp thing). This may be a
shocker but do you know why insurnace companies provide free flu shots??? I'll give you a hint its not that BC&BS are a bunch of goodwill
heartfelt humanitarians that don't want you to get the flu and feel bad......

9/9/2009 2:05:11 PM

Quote :

"I think besides reducing the AMA's lease on limiting physician intern slots "

So why do you think this should be such a major part of reform?

9/9/2009 2:54:20 PM

maybe if there were more doctors, the price for doctors would be less. Crazy idea, I know...

Quote :

"Exactly. Which means that it doesn't matter if we have the supposed best "specialized care" or "cancer survival rates." The best life expectancy comes from good general practitioners and preventative care, an area in which the United States fails, especially when a fifth of the people don't have coverage."

What the fuck good are "good general practitioners" going to do when people won't fucking do what they say in the first place? How do you judge how "good a general practitioner" is in the first place?

Quote :

"let's have an argument about semantics and avoid the topic."

This isn't semantics at all. When you point to loaded statistics, I, or anyone else, should be able to call them out as such.

9/9/2009 3:48:35 PM

Thanks for dodging the question.

9/9/2009 4:22:19 PM

We need more interns, not qualified doctors. The market will determine which ones can stay based on how many people they kill. Small price for freedom.

Hey, I know, how about we make it easier for experienced doctors to immigrate here.

Wow, I just read the entire OP again and....

Quote :

"If it means jack shit to you, I'm not a republican or democrat. I don't identify with any political party. I'm against all taxes except taxes on imports. The government survived just fine before they started taxing income and everything else under the sun. I'm against the wars. It's a huge waste of money and doesn't serve any helpful purpose. I want a small federal government. I want local governments to handle things how they see fit in their local jurisdictions. The only thing the government needs to provide is a police force, fire department, and roads. All that can be handled on the local level. Letting the federal government seize so much power as they have in the last 10 years is lunacy. Bush was up to the same bullshit Obama is up to. Patriot Act, torture, wars, taxes. Stay the fuck out of my life. Go away and let me be free to earn a living and pursue my dreams. I also empathize with those who through no fault of their own get cancer and go bankrupt trying to pay the medical bills. The current system is FAR from perfect, but completely overhauling it in the manner described is not the answer. Repeal the income tax, get rid of all these federal government departments and regulations. State law is soverign over federal law. Read the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson would have wanted no part in this. Get rid of the PRIVATE bank that prints our money and charges interest on each dollar printed. Stop sending billions of dollars in foreign aid to countries around the world. Stop wasting money on endless wars. We have troops in over 130 countries around the globe and spend billions a day maintaining that. That money could be better spent by the people who earned it. I don't want to be paying off student loans for decades because the federal government hijacks 1/3 of my income. I don't want to pay for fat assholes to get fatter. I don't want to pay for troops to murder millions of innocent civilians around the world. The entire system is flawed and is in serious need of reevaluation. But let's use the administration's logic here. Hmm, I'm 12 trillion dollars in debt. How can I get out of it? Oh, great idea!! Print more money and spend more money. That's sure to fix the problem. Anyone who runs their own household and budget sees through their idiocy. STOP SPENDING. CUT BACK. DOWNSIZE. No more cable tv. No more dinner out. Cancel Netflix. Pick up a second job. Hard work people, not government handouts. Get rid of the department of education, homeland security, federal reserve, etc. Leave people the fuck alone and let them keep the money they earn. I'm tired of working 2 days a week for the government. It's slavery, no question about it."

Summary for those who missed it: I AM LIBERTARIAN.

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 5:03 PM. Reason : .]

9/9/2009 4:52:18 PM

you do realize that the number of interns today directly affects the number of doctors tomorrow, right?

9/9/2009 5:16:08 PM

Quote :

"you are comparing apples and oranges nimrod."

I am comparing insurance to insurance. Insurance is a way of protecting your assets. That is it.

At the same time, you are contradicting yourself. In the first breath you agree with the statement that individuals shouldn't need insurance to pay for basic care. I see basic care as "preventative care". Then you go in to detail about how insurance has to pay for "preventative care" to cover their own ass. Where do you stand? That fence must feel horrible in your crotch.

I disagree with you in the fact that insurance reform is more important than health care reform. For me it is the "If you build it, they will come" attitude. If you make it so health care isn't so expensive, insurance won't be such a necessary evil. I agree that the AMA needs adjustment, but also, hospitals should be able to turn away patients that can't pay. I'll use the car repair analogy again. If you went to a body shop for work done and you couldn't pay, they would probably keep the car until you could. Since it would be false imprisonment to detain someone for not paying their hospital bill, and since state run institutions cannot refuse care, the hospitals and doctors charge enough from the paying customers to cover their losses from the non-paying ones. Take the non-paying customers out of the equation, and the cost drops, hopefully to the point where the insurance problem is moot except for "high deductable" situations (car accidents, long-term hospital stays, etc).

9/9/2009 10:14:50 PM

you just make too much sense, man. get out of here!

Quote :

"Since it would be false imprisonment to detain someone for not paying their hospital bill,"

It used to be legal to put people in jail for not paying what they agreed to pay.

9/9/2009 10:53:48 PM

^ how does turning away people who can’t pay make sense? That’s a ridiculous concept to try and promote, and it wouldn’t gain traction among the voters anyway.

9/9/2009 10:56:34 PM

of course it wouldn't gain traction. Handouts garner far more votes than common sense.

why does it make sense to give people a service they didn't pay for?

9/9/2009 10:59:17 PM

^ lol

the “common sense” thing is to treat the sick person. This is how it’s been for centuries.

9/9/2009 11:02:45 PM

not really. It's only a fairly recent development that hospitals have been forced to treat everyone who comes in to the emergency room. Interestingly enough, it's only been fairly recently that health care costs have skyrocketed. I wonder if there is a relationship there

9/9/2009 11:08:15 PM

Quote :

"At the same time, you are contradicting yourself. In the first breath you agree with the statement that individuals shouldn't need insurance to pay for basic care. I see basic care as "preventative care". Then you go in to detail about how insurance has to pay for "preventative care" to cover their own ass. Where do you stand? That fence must feel horrible in your crotch."

I think you are very confused. The first part was my editorial about the affordability of healthcare. The second was a statement
of fact on why insurance companies rationalize purchasing flu shots for their clients.

Quote :

"also, hospitals should be able to turn away patients that can't pay. "

I do agree here. Unless you dying in the waiting room the ER should be able to give you the boot if you don't have insurance or
prove you cna cover your liability for care.

Quote :

"of course it wouldn't gain traction. Handouts garner far more votes than common sense."

true

9/9/2009 11:10:35 PM

^^ I’m not talking about hospitals being “forced” to pay.

I’m talking about doctors performing services for reduced cost/whatever someone could pay and just taking the hit. It’s tradition that doctors help the sick, regardless of if they could pay or not. This code of ethics worked its way into the laws to an extent. But you didn’t have doctors or hospitals turning people away if they were poor, this never happened, and doctors and hospitals wouldn’t want it to happen. This is not where the problem lies.

9/9/2009 11:38:52 PM

you are correct. Doctors used to do that all of the time. Then people like John Edwards came along. There is a difference, though, between a doctor, himself, deciding to treat someone for free and the government mandating that he do so.

9/9/2009 11:41:56 PM

wow.

if some people are making the argument that someone without cash/insurance should be turned away, then there is really no point in trying to convince them about the need for healthcare reform.

if healthcare is still viewed as a service/privilege, then the argument for reform falls on deaf ears.

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 11:54 PM. Reason : ]

9/9/2009 11:54:10 PM

^^ so you’re not arguing that the gov. shouldn’t reimburse a hospital for an uninsured person, you’re arguing that hospitals should just refuse to help uninsured people, period?

9/9/2009 11:55:19 PM

^^ where in the Constitution is healthcare listed as a right? oh, it's not? Guess that makes it a service. By the way, I think there needs to be reform. Just not this reform.

Quote :

"so you’re not arguing that the gov. shouldn’t reimburse a hospital for an uninsured person, you’re arguing that hospitals should just refuse to help uninsured people, period?"

If the hospital so chooses, then absolutely.

9/10/2009 12:01:36 AM

there is something seriously fucked up with the bill of rights if everyone has the right to a gun but not a doctor.


and that's without me going all preamble or declaration of independence.

[Edited on September 10, 2009 at 12:06 AM. Reason : ]

9/10/2009 12:03:01 AM

well, go make a Constitutional Amendment if you feel so strongly about it.

9/10/2009 12:03:52 AM

isn't that just the slightly more mature version of,

"well, if you like it so much, why don't you marry it?"

9/10/2009 12:05:44 AM

no, not really. You are complaining that X is not a right. I am telling you how to make X a right. it's kinda simple

9/10/2009 12:07:07 AM

^ so where is the lie then?

9/10/2009 12:08:38 AM

where in this thread did anyone mention a lie recently?

9/10/2009 12:11:21 AM

Quote :

"You are complaining that X is not a right. I am telling you how to make X a right. it's kinda simple"

i'm not sure what you're trying to say here.


is your argument that healthcare reform should be done as an amendment? would you be more satisfied with reform if it went through the courts instead of both houses?


...actually, i might consider this process. if it was deemed unconstitutional for someone to be denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition, then we'd probably see something done about the mess we have now...




V dude, i'm not admitting that i don't give a fuck about the constitution, i'm just acknowledging that it is a living document. there's no way in hell that our founding fathers could have predicted all the challenges this country would face and therefore write a complete, cut-and-dry document absolutely void of interpretation

[Edited on September 10, 2009 at 12:39 AM. Reason : ]

9/10/2009 12:11:31 AM

you said healthcare is a right. I said it is not. You said it should be. I said make it one via the Amendment process. If that is hard for you to follow, then you need to leave this forum and return to chit chat

^ well, at least you admit that you don't give a fuck about the Constitution.

[Edited on September 10, 2009 at 12:24 AM. Reason : ]

9/10/2009 12:13:07 AM

which leads me back to my original stance that it is pointless to argue the need for reform to someone who genuinely believes that a doctor renders a service, not a public good.

9/10/2009 12:17:53 AM

which leads me back to my point that it is not a right. Circles are great. It also leads me back to refuting your strawman that I am against reform. I am not. I am against this reform. Now your turn!

9/10/2009 12:19:07 AM

you have to remember that you are dealing with a president and a majority in Congress who do not respect the Constitution or have ever done anything that showed any intention of following it.

9/10/2009 12:22:17 AM

yea yea yea. you all say that you want to see reform. but you don't offer any alternatives or attempt to adjust the current versions.

i'd respect your opposition if you at least admitted to wanting the status-quo. you've already admitted that you feel medicine should work only as a pay for services rendered profession.

[Edited on September 10, 2009 at 12:31 AM. Reason : ]

9/10/2009 12:31:10 AM

What makes the whole mess so stupid is that the left wants to pass a huge, one-step nationalization of 20 percent of the country's economy in a few weeks. If it's as important as they say it is, it's important enough to take it a step at the time and with transparency, not rushing it through.

9/10/2009 12:34:56 AM

you need to stop drinking the kool-aid and see that there ARE alternatives. your messiah simply won't listen to them, and the media won't report on them. Did you know that there have been bills proposed OMFG by republicans as alternatives? Guess what happened to them? Pelosi and company shot them down.

I'm still waiting for ANY justification on your part that healthcare is anything more than a service. You've asserted it several times, yet you won't support it. Do us a favour and actually support your argument.

9/10/2009 12:35:05 AM

^^ wow, all your talk, and you STILL don't have a clue what you're talking about.

9/10/2009 12:37:53 AM

your username says it all

9/10/2009 12:44:31 AM