^^ Yeah, I want to get an MBA from Idaho State University. what a solid ROI that would be. What better place than Pocatello Idaho to learn outmoded fad business theories from the 1980's, like old hacksaw's "Theory of Constraints".

Quote :

"TKE-Teg: I might be looking at this the wrong way but if the virus mutates wouldn't that render the vaccine worthless? Or would it have to be a significant mutation?"

people who have the vaccine will likely have a "partial immunity": the original vaccine will still protect against one or more antigens from the mutated variant. this will limit both the virulence of the mutated virus and it's severity. you're right that it can depends on the type of mutation, but partial immunity is significant in terms of a global epidemic.



[Edited on October 31, 2009 at 2:22 PM. Reason : ]

10/31/2009 2:19:42 PM

^ It's hilarious how the only response you could muster was to take issue with Idaho State. And the Theory of Constraints is not "outmoded" or a "fad"--I don't care what Wikipedia told you. If you're in manufacturing, you really should look into it--I'm serious--particularly bottlenecks and making work stations more efficient.

I'm not citing him as any sort of authority, but it's strange that Bill Maher--of all people--and I have some common ground on this issue. I guess he said fuck "science" this time:

Bill Maher vs. the Flu Vaccine
October 13, 2009

Quote :

"The talk show host Bill Maher is best known for his pointed political commentary. But lately he has been dispensing surprisingly unscientific medical advice about flu and the vaccine that prevents it. Mr. Maher recently told his Twitter followers that people who get flu shots are 'idiots.' On his Friday HBO show 'Real Time With Bill Maher,' he explained his opposition to the flu vaccine during an interview with Bill Frist, a heart surgeon who was a Republican senator from Tennessee. Mr. Maher questioned letting someone stick 'a disease into your arm,' wrongly implying that the flu shot contains a live virus. The flu shot is a killed vaccine. (Only the nasal mist vaccine contains a weakened live virus.) He said he did not believe that healthy people were vulnerable to dying from the new H1N1 virus. This contradicts statements from the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that young, healthy people from ages 5 to 24 appear particularly vulnerable to this flu. About a third of the 76 children who have died of H1N1 since April have had no underlying health problems."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/bill-maher-vs-the-flu-vaccine/

Maher debating Dr. Bill Frist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78

Follow-up with other guests the week after:

http://video.theweek.com/video/Maher-still-not-crazy-about-H1N

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason : They probably should use the qualifier "active" virus instead of "live" virus.]

11/3/2009 9:57:30 AM

:ironicat:

11/3/2009 10:02:02 AM

Quote :

"Mr. Maher recently told his Twitter followers that people who get flu shots are 'idiots.' On his Friday HBO show 'Real Time With Bill Maher,' he explained his opposition to the flu vaccine during an interview with Bill Frist, a heart surgeon who was a Republican senator from Tennessee. Mr. Maher questioned letting someone stick 'a disease into your arm,' wrongly implying that the flu shot contains a live virus. The flu shot is a killed vaccine. (Only the nasal mist vaccine contains a weakened live virus.) "

Well, that's fucking stupid. It does give you autism, though.

11/3/2009 10:16:01 AM

Wait, I'm confused. Why is Hooksaw posting Bill Mahr's position on the flu vaccine? Bill Mahr seems like he would be one of the least qualified people in the country to share intelligent opinions on vaccinations. As far as I know he holds absolutely no formal medical training.

11/3/2009 10:44:40 AM

^ i think he thinks that the left idolizes left-leaning media personalities like the right idolizes their guys.

Bill Maher is wrong about vaccines (and he has some strange views about healthcare too).

11/3/2009 10:48:08 AM

Quote :

"I'm not citing him as any sort of authority. . . ."

^^ You must be really "confused." Did you happen to catch this ^ part of my post?

The New York Times and others have taken Maher to task about his position. I was simply passing it along.

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 10:50 AM. Reason : .]

11/3/2009 10:50:22 AM

I'm still trying to understand what point you're arguing here.

11/3/2009 10:53:26 AM

Quote :

"Well, that's fucking stupid. It does give you autism, though"

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not? But scaremongers for decades have tried to convince the public that the tiny amount of mercury in vaccines can cause autism, with no proof to back it up. And as far as I know no manufacturers use it anymore b/c of the shit they were getting from those idiots.

11/3/2009 10:53:51 AM

^^ Don't worry about it.

"Should H1N1 Vaccination Be Mandatory for some? For all?"

message_topic.aspx?topic=577774&page=1


[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 11:17 AM. Reason : I guess thread titles also confuse you. ]

11/3/2009 11:10:47 AM

An Epidemic of Fear: How Panicked Parents Skipping Shots Endangers Us All
October 19, 2009

Quote :

"In certain parts of the US, vaccination rates have dropped so low that occurrences of some children’s diseases are approaching pre-vaccine levels for the first time ever."

Quote :

"Ah, risk. It is the idea that fuels the anti-vaccine movement — that parents should be allowed to opt out, because it is their right to evaluate risk for their own children. It is also the idea that underlies the CDC’s vaccination schedule — that the risk to public health is too great to allow individuals, one by one, to make decisions that will impact their communities. (The concept of herd immunity is key here: It holds that, in diseases passed from person to person, it is more difficult to maintain a chain of infection when large numbers of a population are immune.)"

Quote :

"Before smallpox was eradicated with a vaccine, it killed an estimated 500 million people. And just 60 years ago, polio paralyzed 16,000 Americans every year, while rubella caused birth defects and mental retardation in as many as 20,000 newborns. Measles infected 4 million children, killing 3,000 annually, and a bacterium called Haemophilus influenzae type b caused Hib meningitis in more than 15,000 children, leaving many with permanent brain damage. Infant mortality and abbreviated life spans — now regarded as a third world problem — were a first world reality. Today, because the looming risk of childhood death is out of sight, it is also largely out of mind, leading a growing number of Americans to worry about what is in fact a much lesser risk: the ill effects of vaccines. If your newborn gets pertussis, for example, there is a 1 percent chance that the baby will die of pulmonary hypertension or other complications. The risk of dying from the pertussis vaccine, by contrast, is practically nonexistent — in fact, no study has linked DTaP (the three-in-one immunization that protects against diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis) to death in children. Nobody in the pro-vaccine camp asserts that vaccines are risk-free, but the risks are minute in comparison to the alternative."

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

^Well then I'd have to agree with whoever is arguing for forced vaccination.

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 11:23 AM. Reason : .]

11/3/2009 11:20:55 AM

^ First, I'm not a parent (I'm sure of you will be glad to hear it). Second, I'm not in the age range most vulnerable. Third, the H1N1 flu is a mostly mild strain at this point. Fourth, are you really this dense or are you just trolling?

The setup in the OP was a classic one: If x is a good idea that should be forced on some, why not all? Did you even bother to read it?

And are you actually saying that the government should be allowed to force private citizens to take vaccinations? Just what do you mean by "forced" and who should be forced?

BTW, these folks among others disagree:

California Nurses Association/NNOC Issues Policy on H1N1 Flu Vaccination: Encourage, Don't Mandate

http://tinyurl.com/yb2v9se

OPINION: Don't force medical pros to get H1N1 vaccine
October 3, 2009 By GEORGE J. ANNAS

George J. Annas is a professor of health law, bioethics and human rights at Boston University School of Public Health, and author of 'The Rights of Patients.'

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/opinion-don-t-force-medical-pros-to-get-h1n1-vaccine-1.1496620

Besides, there's a nationwide H1N1 vaccine shortage right now, haven't you heard? There are only about 27 million of an expected 40 million doses available.

Shortage of flu vaccines leaves healthcare workers vulnerable
November 3, 2009

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-me-flu-workers3-2009nov03,0,2512436.story

[Edited on November 3, 2009 at 11:38 AM. Reason : .]

11/3/2009 11:34:44 AM

You being or not being a parent, you are still championing that your personal liberty trumps the collective's. If you were a parent, would you not be arguing that you and you alone have the right to decide what vaccines your child gets?

Quote :

"Second, I'm not in the age range most vulnerable. Third, the H1N1 flu is a mostly mild strain at this point. Fourth, are you really this dense or are you just trolling?"

You may not be most vulnerable, but you are not immune. Tell the people who have died how mild it is. Neither.

Quote :

"And are you actually saying that the government should be allowed to force private citizens to take vaccinations?"

I am, and they are. In Jacobson v Massachusetts the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the State infringing on an individual's liberties relating to vaccinations. As long as the legislative branch of government deems it necessary, it can be done.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/197/11/case.html

As to the 3 articles you linked:

California Nurses:

Quote :

"At the heart of this policy is the belief that every RN should be vaccinated against the H1N1 influenza virus"

Shortage of flu vaccines:

Quote :

"Federal officials list healthcare workers among those at greatest risk for H1N1 flu"

Quote :

"This year, with so many workers yet to be vaccinated for H1N1, hospital officials fear they may end up with staffing shortages due to illness as flu patients surge."

So they want all the nurses to get it, and healthcare workers in general for that matter. How are you going to guarantee everyone gets it if you let people opt out? What about the legal ramifications of letting a health-care worker opt out? What if an unvaccinated RN becomes a carrier and passes the virus to patients before displaying symptoms? We could play this game with other diseases besides H1N1. I'd bet that if the path of disease was traced back to the hospital there would be monstrous lawsuits aimed at the hospital for negligence or malpractice.

If you make everyone get vaccinated, you won't end up with a staffing shortage due to H1N1.

OPINION: Don't force:

Quote :

"Physicians and nurses, educated and licensed professionals, dedicated to their patients' health and welfare, do have an ethical obligation to take all reasonable steps to protect their patients."

Getting vaccinated is not a reasonable step? She goes on to ramble off 4 baseless assumptions as to why forcing people might be a bad idea, but does nothing to back them up. Hence why the the title begins with a capitalized "OPINION:"


So out of your 3 articles, you've posted one that advocates both having an entire population vaccinated AND personal liberty, an Opinion article by a law/ethics expert which claims healthcare workers have the ethical obligation to get vaccinated, and an article that discusses great reasons why healthcare workers should be forced to be vaccinated.

Your liberty as an individual is a great thing. However, you do not have the right to put the people around you at risk with your willful ignorance. Because this ignorance is something that runs rampant in the age of The University of Google, forcing people to get vaccinated is the sure bet to cover all our bases and protect the population as a whole.

11/3/2009 12:41:30 PM

Quote :

"I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not? But scaremongers for decades have tried to convince the public that the tiny amount of mercury in vaccines can cause autism, with no proof to back it up. And as far as I know no manufacturers use it anymore b/c of the shit they were getting from those idiots."

I was completely joking, btw. Thought it would be obvious

11/3/2009 1:16:53 PM

^^ Yeah, ignorance is something that runs rampant--and you clearly suffer from it. First, you left out a key part of the quotation from the California Nurses Association:

Quote :

"At the heart of this policy is the belief that every RN should be vaccinated against the H1N1 influenza virus, but nurses should maintain their right to decline for personal reasons. . . ."

http://tinyurl.com/yb2v9se

Second, Professor Annas listed several reasons why vaccines shouldn't be mandatory, which is the issue here, that you conveniently neglected to post:

Quote :

"So why not require vaccination if they refuse? There are at least four reasons. The first is symbolic: The practice of medicine (and nursing) is a voluntary one based on informed choice - and will hopefully remain this way. Forcing physicians and nurses to become unconsenting patients - even for a flu shot - undermines the consensual nature of the health care relationship, and at least suggests that if health care professionals can be forced to take a vaccination for the good of others, perhaps everyone else can, too. The second reason is pragmatic. We are likely to get more physicians and nurses vaccinated in a well-planned and executed voluntary program (including providing the vaccinations at staff meetings, for example), than in a forced program that will draw and energize opposition. Third, if enough physicians and nurses refuse vaccination, the mandate will be unenforceable, since no responsible public health official would try to close a hospital for failure to comply with the mandate in the midst of a flu epidemic. Fourth, the requirement that physicians and nurses be vaccinated as a condition of practicing medicine and nursing in health care settings will predictably confuse the public when clarity is critical."

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/opinion-don-t-force-medical-pros-to-get-h1n1-vaccine-1.1496620

Third, it's good to know that you're so supportive of the executive branch of our government simply declaring forced actions on citizens by fiat. I'll remember your position when a Republican takes office--which is looking more and more like 2012.

Fourth, are you as sure of your position here as you were that loose nukes aren't a problem?

Quote :

"However, as we've already discussed, terrorists lack the capability to produce a nuclear weapon."

Quote :

"But for right now, nuclear attacks on US soil by terrorists remain extremely unlikely."

Sayer

message_topic.aspx?topic=478138&page=2

Yet, securing loose nukes is Obama's number one foreign policy objective:

Quote :

"1. Secure loose nuclear materials from terrorists: Obama and Biden will secure all loose nuclear materials in the world within four years, and will negotiate a verifiable global ban on the production of new nuclear weapons material to curb the spread of nuclear weapons."

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreign_policy/index_campaign.php

And a bonus from the same page just to show your ignorance:

Quote :

"Do they even allow tank cars of toxic and dangerous chemicals to travel through heavily populated areas? I have no idea, but it would seem logical to me to not allow this to happen for a number of reasons."

Sayer

Fifth, are you just trolling?

11/3/2009 7:24:46 PM

Quote :

"hooksaw - First, you left out a key part of the quotation from the California Nurses Association: At the heart of this policy is the belief that every RN should be vaccinated against the H1N1 influenza virus, but nurses should maintain their right to decline for personal reasons"

Quote :

"Sayer - So out of your 3 articles, you've posted one that advocates both having an entire population vaccinated AND personal liberty,"

So did you even read everything I wrote or are you completely full of shit?

Since you cut straight to regurgitating the script of the press release rather than sitting and thinking about what it means, I'll break it down for you. The Association says multiple times they think everyone should get vaccinated. If you give people the choice to get vaccinated, you're not going to get everyone vaccinated. You're going to have people opt out.

Quote :

"hooksaw - Second, Professor Annas listed several reasons why vaccines shouldn't be mandatory, which is the issue here, that you conveniently neglected to post:"

Quote :

"Sayer - She goes on to ramble off 4 baseless assumptions as to why forcing people might be a bad idea, but does nothing to back them up."

You continue to show your inability to read. Since you also don't seem to comprehend, I'll hold your hand and walk you through her reasons.

Quote :

"The first is symbolic: The practice of medicine (and nursing) is a voluntary one based on informed choice - and will hopefully remain this way. Forcing physicians and nurses to become unconsenting patients - even for a flu shot - undermines the consensual nature of the health care relationship, and at least suggests that if health care professionals can be forced to take a vaccination for the good of others, perhaps everyone else can, too."

No one is forcing these people to be doctors and nurses. There is no mandate or requirement saying that they have to be allowed to practice medicine. If they don't want to get the protection needed to deal with sick patients, they can go find another line of work. As I quoted the author earlier, "Physicians and nurses, educated and licensed professionals, dedicated to their patients' health and welfare, do have an ethical obligation to take all reasonable steps to protect their patients."

Quote :

"The second reason is pragmatic. We are likely to get more physicians and nurses vaccinated in a well-planned and executed voluntary program (including providing the vaccinations at staff meetings, for example), than in a forced program that will draw and energize opposition."

If you force people to get vaccinations, then 100% of the people working with the sick will be vaccinated. If you let people opt out, then less than 100% of the people working with the sick will be vaccinated. By letting people opt out you are putting patients at risk.

Quote :

"Third, if enough physicians and nurses refuse vaccination, the mandate will be unenforceable, since no responsible public health official would try to close a hospital for failure to comply with the mandate in the midst of a flu epidemic."

Really? Unenforceable? How many doctors and nurses would have to refuse to close a hospital? Do you have any data that represents the number of doctors/nurses who at present would opt out? Please show me data to support this. By this logic, if enough healthcare workers refuse to the vaccinated, and they all come down with the virus, they could effectively close down a hospital due to a staffing shortage. How responsible.

Quote :

"Fourth, the requirement that physicians and nurses be vaccinated as a condition of practicing medicine and nursing in health care settings will predictably confuse the public when clarity is critical."

How? How will this confuse the public? How does this send any message other than "it's really important that you get vaccinated." This is the most retarded thing she says here. Please explain to be how this is confusing to ANYONE.

Quote :

"hooksaw - Third, it's good to know that you're so supportive of the executive branch of our government simply declaring forced actions on citizens by fiat."

Quote :

"Sayer - In Jacobson v Massachusetts the US Supreme Court ruled in favor of the State infringing on an individual's liberties relating to vaccinations. As long as the legislative branch of government deems it necessary, it can be done."

Again, your ability to read and comprehend obviously doesn't exist. You should work on this.

Additionally, I love how you quote me discussing terrorist organizations inability to produce nuclear weapons, and then quote me talking about trains carrying chemicals. Do you understand that they're not the same thing? Do you understand that nuclear weapons and trains carrying chemicals have absolutely nothing to do with the thread at hand? Furthermore, nothing you quoted me on has changed since it was originally written. I still stand by it.

Good hijack attempt. Instead of trying to distract from this thread's argument, maybe you should instead work on your reading and comprehension skills since you obviously possess neither. You'll need both if you actually want to be taken seriously some day.

11/3/2009 10:26:00 PM

^ So you are trolling then?

BTW, it's the president who declared H1N1 a "national emergency."

11/3/2009 10:29:30 PM

If you think trolling is synonymous with disagreeing with you and pointing out your argument is weak then yes, I am trolling.

Is declaring a "national emergency" the same thing as mandating vaccinations? The last time I checked it wasn't.

11/3/2009 10:34:44 PM

^ My argument is not weak. Vaccinations should not be mandatory and the government has no authority to force medical procedures of this nature on citizens.

If private businesses want to require vaccinations as a condition of employment, that's a different animal. Doctors, nurses, and other health-care workers don't have a right to work there--but they do have rights concerning what is forced into their bodies. If you can't see this, you're a fascist and I can't help you.

And national emergencies can lead to all sorts of shenanigans. You should look into the frightening powers of the executive.

In any event, I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss the loose nukes thread. I owned you there just like I did here--I'm done with you.

11/3/2009 10:42:21 PM

^ you are required to get certain immunizations to go to NCSU, is this wrong too?

11/4/2009 12:30:16 AM

^ I'm not required to go to NCSU. I chose to.

11/4/2009 12:37:45 AM

^ ... and people can't choose different jobs?

[Edited on November 4, 2009 at 12:39 AM. Reason : ]

11/4/2009 12:39:25 AM

^ Um. . .are you trolling or just stupid?

Quote :

"If private businesses want to require vaccinations as a condition of employment, that's a different animal. Doctors, nurses, and other health-care workers don't have a right to work there--but they do have rights concerning what is forced into their bodies. If you can't see this, you're a fascist and I can't help you."

hooksaw

11/4/2009 12:40:17 AM

You realize that is in no way a meaningful response to what we're discussing?

11/4/2009 12:44:49 AM

^ I say it is. You need to read the OP and start over.

[Edited on November 4, 2009 at 12:48 AM. Reason : And it's a direct response to the bullshit you posted, troll. ]

11/4/2009 12:47:55 AM

If you don't even know what a troll is, how is anyone supposed to have an intelligent discussion with you?

Here, this is trolling: Why did you get fired from your TA position again? They could have asked any of us here and we would have happily let them know you were incapable of being in charge of any educational responsibility.

Quote :

"If private businesses want to require vaccinations as a condition of employment, that's a different animal. Doctors, nurses, and other health-care workers don't have a right to work there--but they do have rights concerning what is forced into their bodies. If you can't see this, you're a fascist and I can't help you."

Sure, they have a right as to what is forced into their bodies. Just like you and I do. You can go out and put yourself at risk all day long as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else in the population. Go try it, have fun!

However, that liberty ends when it puts more than just the individual at risk. Do you believe you have the right to put your community in danger? Do you believe your right-to-choose is more important than the right of those around you to be healthy? The people around you have rights too.

Yes, this stand holds fascist qualities, does that scare you? Are you not comfortable with this? I'm hardly a fascist since I strongly believe in democracy. But even when our democracy functions correctly, with a legislative body deeming mandatory vaccinations necessary, and multiple judicial bodies upholding that decision as constitutional, you still don't like it? Why do you hate democracy and America?

Would you have refused the smallpox vaccine when they were forcing people to get it? Are you against the MMR vaccine that is pretty much mandatory for someone to be part of modern American society? Do you believe these are unnecessary and you should have greater rights to refuse?

[Edited on November 4, 2009 at 10:58 AM. Reason : h]

11/4/2009 10:57:50 AM

^ You are one of the dumbest buffoons on this site. Will you try to grasp the meaning of the word "mandatory"?

At no point have I indicated that I am against vaccinations--I have been vaccinated more times against various diseases than you could imagine. But I wasn't forced to take any of them--I made choices.

Are you really this dumb? You're just trollling, right?

BTW, do you think circumcision should be mandatory?

11/4/2009 3:47:50 PM

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

Quote :

"FACT SHEET ON MANDATORY VACCINES Mandatory vaccines violate the medical ethic of informed consent. A case could also be made that mandates for vaccines by school districts and legislatures is the de facto practice of medicine without a license."

http://www.aapsonline.org/testimony/mandvac.htm

The AAPS also supports my position. FYI: Ron Paul is a member of this organization.

11/7/2009 3:55:38 AM

Quote :

"GlaxoSmithKline Recalls H1N1 Vaccine in Canada Over 'Life-Threatening' Allergy Risk Tuesday November 24, 2009 LONDON — The pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline says it has advised medical staff in Canada to not use one batch of swine flu vaccine for fear it may trigger life-threatening allergies. GlaxoSmithKline spokeswoman Gwenan White said Tuesday the company issued the advice after reports that one batch of the swine flu vaccine might have caused more allergic reactions than normal. She says the affected batch contains 172,000 doses of the vaccine. She declined to say how many doses had been administered before the advice to stop using them was given. White says GlaxoSmithKline wrote to Canadian healthcare professionals advising them to stop using the batch on Nov. 18. She says a total of 7.5 million doses of the vaccine have been distributed in Canada."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,576526,00.html

11/24/2009 9:01:50 AM

rut roh shaggy. quality control fail.

11/24/2009 9:04:23 AM

pfffft. Its canada, who cares?

11/24/2009 9:18:22 AM

The Canadians?

11/24/2009 9:24:10 AM

right. no one cares.

11/24/2009 9:47:40 AM

Are we seriously going to play the "dur, Canadians aren't real people" bullshit again? Ineffective troll is ineffective.

11/24/2009 9:48:56 AM

but canadians aren't real people.

11/24/2009 9:51:18 AM

Quote :

"Ineffective troll is ineffective."

11/24/2009 9:51:48 AM

go back to 4chan.

11/24/2009 9:52:44 AM

says the idiot claiming that canadians aren't real people.

11/24/2009 9:59:36 AM

U.S. Needs to Focus More on Vaccine Safety: Report
December 11, 2009

Quote :

"'Simply promoting the use of vaccines no longer meets the needs of individuals and families seeking to make informed decisions amidst a maelstrom of conflicting messages,' the committee wrote in the report."

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/wirestory?id=9314586&page=2

Indeed.

12/14/2009 2:28:07 AM

800,000 doses of kids’ H1N1 vaccine recalled
Tests show the shots may not be potent enough to protect against virus
1 hour, 27 minutes ago

Quote :

"The issue is the vaccine's strength. Tests done before the shots were shipped showed that the vaccines were strong enough. But tests done weeks later indicated the strength had fallen slightly below required levels. Why the potency dropped isn't clear."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34432437?GT1=43001

12/15/2009 1:55:05 PM